bjr

I have been searching all rear bumper or rear quarter panel discussions/DIY here and on the web for a couple of days and haven't come up with what I am looking for.
I want to know if I will be able to inspect the back side of my quarter panel to see if this is surface rust or coming from behind. Guessing how sealed off the back is so far I'd guess it was surface rust unless it has started by dripping down the seam near the filler neck. I've been putting this off for awhile and keeping it covered with paint but it finally needs some work
I have a boroscope/inspection snake camera or whatever you want to call it with two different sized heads if there are ANY 6-17mm crevices or holes I can get into after the bumper is off or any other way. I've done everything in the past (tail-light, double checked inside trunk even thought wasn't expecting that to go anywhere) except for the bumper because a few of the u-clip fasteners are rusted solid and also didn't want to cut the rivets yet unless I knew I would get a chance to inspect the quarter panel.
Any advice?
http://imageshack.us/a/img163/1135/dscf0046sn.jpg

KornerCarver

iTrader: (2)

That doesn't look like surface rust to me. It looks like you need to take your Z to a body shop for repairs.

dkmura

iTrader: (64)

I agree, that's more than just a little surface rust. But it's highly unusual as Nissan zinc coats all their body panels so rust is never a problem. Did your Z ever have a repair in this area?

If not, check your body warranty, as it far exceeds the 3/36 b-2-b warranty.

bjr

Not surface rust because of the bubbling?

As long as I've brought it up and sent a pic I'm searching for other advice on this and to learn something...

It started by being one or two pinhole sized brown spots coming through the paint and blossomed into this bubbling mess. Just keeping some touch up paint on it slows it down a lot. I think this is 2 years later now! I didn't have it done at the time I got a couple of estimates because no one could tell me how it happened or if it would come back. One of them even said I could let it go for a little while (like one winter season) but not to let it get any holes in it or you would have to cut some out and weld in a patch. But he said it could be that bad that very day not knowing how bad it is behind the panel. The other guy said if you don't want your car to rust buy it new down south and move there! In all seriousness though he said he sees almost EVERY model of car has either some bad design in assembly method or a weak spot and will eventually rust. That includes body and frame and things you may never see unless taken apart. But one good example, every other Ford Taurus wheel well living in the rust belt states.

This is the first car I ever took care of that rusted and some of mine were 20 years old. I searched for weeks trying to find if this is a common spot on the Z and of course found none. But this is not a car most people rack up miles on or even let some of them get wet. At least not when they first came out, so who knows what most Zs would do driven every day with 192,000 miles on them including the snow. When I can't filter through all of the BS I hear I usually just fix things on my own and trust my own instinct but I am no body shop man. If it occured back at the seam I would question someone's ability to repair it properly to prevent it from happening again = wasted money.

****Do you think someone can figure out what happened once they start working on it?*****


My only theory is that the gas door sagged down so low that it could have touched at some point and possibly started a micro sized spot for water to get into past the clearcoat. Or the weld along the front half way between the door and neck is allowing water to drip behind the panel? The ledge behind the door has got enough horizontal attitude to it and the door fits so horribly from the factory it is easy for water to just sit in there on the ledge. I dry it after a wash but I don't dry it out every time it rains!

I think it would still be only a couple hundred more than the quotes of $350-$400 I got before since it needs some repair rather than just sanding and paint but I need to find someone willing to just kill the rust and paint that spot as nice as possible and not blend the whole quarter panel and the bumper (more $$$). This is not a show car. I have looked at it brown for so long I just want the rust fixed and some shade of blue sprayed on with some clear so I can keep driving it for several more years without it turning into swiss cheese. I know most of you won't feel this way but it really is a waste of money to go any further than that I feel...

I think then the main thing I wanted to know is that I can't fix it myself because the damage is deep. At least if it rusted from behind I wouldn't have been fixing it myself no matter what anyway.

bjr

It does look like there is some kind of panel rust-through lifetime warranty but it would be reimbursement later and hard to prove. There are some exclusions. It does sound like there is something there to keep in mind though.

KingBaby

iTrader: (3)

Shouldn't of gotten to that point if you covered it up the first time correctly...keep us posted on the fix

terrasmak

iTrader: (8)

Pull glovebox floor and snake your borescope in where the seatbelt mounts. You should be able to get back there, if your scope is long enough. My rear is guuted, i'll look for other places when i get home from work.

bjr

That would be awesome. I am looking at it again myself a little. Trying to figure out where it started again. Being able to scope it may be the thing I need to make a decision on what to do. The bubbled mess on the outside is so solid still even though it is bubbling out! Even though it has added so much depth above the original paint level nothing is flaking off or crumbling. I am still holding out that I may end up letting it go or do something about it myself depending what is behind there. I don't feel like I have enough to decide on yet

I do remember now how complicated that intersection gets right behind the rust. There are multiple panels and layers in that area making so much hidden. I think I was most surprised last time I took the tail light off. Nothing to see there!

Thanks for the ideas so far...

dkmura

iTrader: (64)

Never heard from you on any possible past damage to the RR quarterpanel. If not, I'd at least run it by my local dealer and get an estimate on whether it would be covered.

Also, my Z33 racecar has been completely stripped down and I think you'll find some access though to that fuel door area by removing the interior panel on that side of the car. I can manually pop the gas cover by reaching into the recess where the white control tab is. Pretty sure your boroscope should have good access there.

bjr

OOps. Thought I kind of said something indirectly. No damage whatsoever.

So are you talking about from inside the trunk OR the cubby hole/glove box area? Don't remember how far I went in the trunk before. I remember a manual steel cord to release the trunk - so there is one for the fuel door or is it that you can reach the solenoid or something else to release the door from inside a gutted car? Also may have pics from when I did my sound deadening for my stereo.

One of my old quotes was from Nissan but they wouldn't offer warranty info. on their own. Definately will check that out too. Maybe tomorrow night after work I can leave before they close. Already have plans tonight to stay late...


I really appreciate the comments everyone!

bjr

Do you mean literally just cover it up? Because in a way I did, with touch up paint. Maybe proof that it's from the inside out. And maybe that's not what you meant. Rust needs moisture and oxygen right? Must be coming from behind. I tried to make sure it was covered with paint from the outside when it was bone dry to avoid trapping moisture, etc.
Like I said though. I have a lot to learn about body work.
I may have slowed down the outside rust and made more trouble on the backside. Who knows? If I ever find the source maybe I didn't end up doing anything really stupid after all and just bought some time to think about it and find the root cause (I hope). I don't know if I regret what I did yet or the amount of time that has gone by. Wish I had some friends that could have taught me something about body work. Everything else on the car I know enough to do my own work. Feel kind of helpless about it and was just waiting to see how quickly it got worse without causing major damage (like holes).
I always thought it was hard to find a good mechanic but at least most mechanical problems there is only one way to fix it right and either you know what you are doing or not. Body work and opinions on rust control vary more than opinions on what oil to buy! The chemistry behind it is simple (water and oxygen) but repair of it is always highly debated. I'd have to say it's more frustrating dealing with a solution than actually seeing the rust on my poor car.

I did have excellent results using POR15 on another car on the leading edge of the sunroof. But you have to be able to coat every bit of the rust to hope that it works. I think a solution like that is out of the question here because of the location to just cover up the problem and buy lots more time (possibly the life of the car if coverage is good).

dkmura

iTrader: (64)

I'm talking about the trunk area itself. Either remove the PS velour and plastic interior body panels or try pulling the jack and going behind them. You'll find there's a rectangular hole big enough to fit your hand into. The white solenoid has a small tab that'll allow you to manually release the fuel door and (I assume) allow you access to the backside of the panel itself.

bjr

Awesome. Thanks again. I'll be checking that out hopefully before the weekend. Sounds VERY much like the right spot!

bjr

Stopped somewhere last night and he left a message at home for a price today.
$890 If no rust through, just sandblast and normal paint like any other quarter panel paint job.

$1150 If anything thin enough to consider rusted through - cut and weld/patch in repairs then paint.

Makes those other quotes look dirt cheap.

Still hoping to discover more by inspection through the trunk interior and figure out something I can live with on my own!

bjr

I found a lot last night. All of it bad. I need some time to fit in some picture sharing and descriptions/theory.

All you have to do is remove the carpeted piece in the trunk that covers the wheel well. To do that you have to remove three trim pieces and the plastic and carpet over the spare tire. The jack/tool tray would probably allow access too but requires twice as much stuff to take out, including what I took out already. Boroscope is great to look at it but really all you need to inspect is a small digital camera or smart phone camera to hold near the solenoid and start taking dozens of pics facing the front of the car at different angles.

Thanks so much for the advice. I was in there before but think I just pulled back that panel, stuck a screwdriver down there and tapped on the wheel well and said to myself that it was all closed up from behind, escpecially after seeing how closed it is under the tail light. I always figured any access would be after taking the bumper off. I was way off! And I should have gone this far and asked for help two years ago Live and learn...

dkmura

iTrader: (64)

So it sounds like you found your way to that rectangular hole where the gas door solonoid is. There is a lot of plastic to remove, but it should give you good access to the back of that fender area. Still interested to hear what you found- but if there is rust, how did it get to the back of that panel? Zinc coating ensures a rust free surface, unless something compromised it .

bjr

Boy I wish you were on my side! I just got done basically arguing with a Nissan body shop but conducted our business in the wrong order. We should have gone over the warranty first and I walked away knowing he can't help me rather than let him insult me that I hit it with a gas pump nozzle, it's from the OUTSIDE , he's done this for 41 years and seen this kind of rust a hundred times, didn't even want to look at the pictures I had, and gave me a $2,900 repair quote and said it could cost more! Wouldn't want him to touch my car if it was for free! At least I've had 40 minutes to drive home and realize it doesn't matter becuase there is no warranty. I even will go so far as to say from what I think I found if he were to have done the $350 quote from last year and got into it he would have found that it started on the inside and I would have been really screwed if he cut into it and called back a day later and said "oh by the way it's bad and it will be $3,000 and your car is cut apart."

There is a rust perforation warranty but it expired in Jan.2010. That should have been much before this problem peeked through the outide paint for the first time from my memory so no regrets there.

I'll get to work on uploading some pics and a theory or two and some advice for a shadetree repair that I can live with.

bjr

Here is a good sample of some of the pics I got.
Most pictures are upside down because of where the lens is located on the camera and I had to hold the camera up against the inside wall to catch what I did. The scope can catch a little further towards the front of the car but not much more was seen that helped. I still may take the advice to go under the glovebox floor and take a look from the front too.

53
http://img42.imageshack.us/img42/6315/dscf0053pl.jpg
The black and blue are two layers of brush on sound deadening and that just happened to be as far as I thought I could reach when I did that. That was done in 2005 so hopefully I wasn't supposed to discover some rust or water stains way back then. That would suck because I was right there! Towards the bottom with the two
things that look like rivets is the housing for the fuel neck. Towards the top is the top of the wheel well. Remember you are disoriented. The rust is basically where two panels meet and would be lined up on the outside with the area immediately below the door.

55
http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/776/dscf0055l.jpg
Close up and notice that the rust drips towards the wheel well.

59
http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/5810/dscf0059pq.jpg
for later discussion. Notice there is a sealant (black). This is a pic after I took about 30 shots then removed the door solenoid to see if I could find any more details.

That hole is where the solenoid pokes through to the outside world.

73
http://img837.imageshack.us/img837/5108/dscf0073yn.jpg
Another close up. Thick stuff and falling apart. Probably not much strength left in it!

103
http://img856.imageshack.us/img856/7379/dscf0103bw.jpg
more details of a sealant. The body repair section of the service maual details how sealant is needed between dozens of body panels in the car. This area is one of them. May include the pages in the manual later if I remember.

104
http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/6662/dscf0104h.jpg
So after looking at this for an hour or more and taking dozens of pics, I got a cup of water and started pouring it along the ledge where I have painted over all of the damage on the outside. I put the scope inside and watched for leak through. This pic should be edited and have a faint, thin yellow circle drawn around something I discovered. By the way, this is the front of the door area where the hinge is. You are looking at the bottom part of the bracket and that black plastic whip is the fuel door tether. If I pour water right in there below the bracket I get water inside about 1 second later and it streams inside the same speed that I pour it in. Depth perception is off on this but it seems like the spot if flows out of inside is half way point in the middle of the door - the lowest point of the circular shape of this area like gravity helped water find a way all the way through over the years.

So?
Theory #1 - The rust on the inside looks as bad or worse than what I covered up on the outside. Did this sealant that has to go between two panels not get installed perfect and there was a small spot from the factory from the first day? And water gets in there, finds one spot that is vulnerable and gets to the point that it shows up on the outside of the car years later?
Actually I have a couple of other theories but not sure how to explain them yet becuase there is so much rust it is too late to figure out if it is inside to out or ouside to in. I'll try and help form things later if anyone has any other ideas. I still don't know how to figure it out. I can only show the rust on the inside and tell you about the water with 100% certainty.


133
http://img837.imageshack.us/img837/8862/dscf0133c.jpg
So this looks like a nasty sand mixture packed onto the wheel well. There is a lot of this stuff lining my wheel well on the outside and is the result of the last snow storm early this week. I just washed my car Sunday and we got 4" of snow for Tuesday morning commute. It proves to me how much water can blast in while driving.

I cannot reach far enough to touch it but it looks familiar and does not belong on the wheel well inside. That should be clean gray metal. Don't know if this means that something else is coming in the wheel well also but I doubt it. It's hard to believe that much got in though. May need to spray the wheel well with water from a garden hose from outside too to complete the investigation.


136
http://img716.imageshack.us/img716/8156/dscf0136g.jpg
This is a nice shot of the path of the water from the fuel neck to the wheel well.

140
http://img715.imageshack.us/img715/830/dscf0140ht.jpg
Same thing another angle.

So the only way my best theory holds up is if the sealant problem existed from the factory. I now wish that the day I found one brown rust dot showing through the clearcoat on the ouside I would have had more ambition to track it down. Then if you have one dot on the outside and aggressive rust on the inside of the trunk it is 100% clear what could have happened. Unfortunatly it is too late for me to figure out but maybe someone else can. Every car I've owned has had a flaw that should have been corrected the first day you discover it or something stupid I've ignored so this is another stupid life lesson for me I guess. First time really dealing with rust.
Like to know what anyone else thinks could have happened.

$3,000 repair is out of the qustion on an 05 with 192,000 miles on it. And with the damage seen I don't want to spend $400 on it either because that shop will honor the price and just end up cleaning it and painting over it or discover I need to spend 2-3 times more with a phone call after they have gone to far to call it off. That one quote I had was $1100 to do cut and repair work. Not speding that much either.
I have to do something to stop the leak and also would like to slow down the rust process to a crawl. IF I can put any faith in POR15 I could try to see if I can reach a brush in there and coat it heavy. Like I said it has worked for me before. If I can put POR15 on the inside and sand the outside down smooth and there is metal left, POR15 the outside. I learned that they have paint code matched aerosol cans of paint now instead of having to know how to operate a professional paint gun and mix the reducer, etc. And I know they have clear coat in a spray can. And I know a little about wet sanding layers and making it look better than it comes straight out of the can, so I can live with the looks of a repair like that. The basic idea would be to seal off both sides of the rust and I know there will be some untreated in between but maybe it will be a few years until it spreads uncontrollably again. Or I may just be dreaming. Seems like people get very mixed results with doing half-baked rust repair. It could last years or months but I am willing to try and stop it for <$100. I think it's worth trying because I know what will happen if I let it go. The car will fall apart before I want to stop driving it and owning it.
About stopping the leak. My first thought was to take the door off so I have more access to the area. Seal it with silicone by smearing it down there with my smallest finger or some kind of tool. Let it dry and test it. Now what I am thinking is that if the POR15 is thin enough to pour some in there and try and get it to drip into the inside. That stuff drys hard and seals things off. Still could follow up with silicone. Any other ideas?

I know this all sounds stupid and cheap on paper but some of it could work. Need more thoeries and ideas besides paying $1100-$3000 to cut it all out and start over. Don't think that is going to happen! Also, my idea to me seems like I have nothing to loose but $50-$100. At whatever point I discover it it not working in months or years it can still be done professionally because they were going to cut out and replace the panels or make their own depending where I went anyway. I am just making the most out of the damage.

K51

Just an idea, but community colleges often have body shop classes (or vocational high schools, too), and they're always looking for cars to learn on. Maybe call around and see if you can find one locally that may want to work with you. I can tell you, from my 35+ year experience with older English, German, and Italian cars, that unless you cut out all the rust, it will be back quickly. POR15 applied from both sides isn't a fix by any means. If you can't repair it right, I wouldn't bother.

bjr

I agree with repairing it right. But I was hoping to buy a few years and see where it goes from there. I'm torn because it's only cosmetic vs. lots of money for what serves no function. If I didn't take care of my cars I would expect it to happen or not care - but this still seems like some strange occurance. 80% of things I do in life I try and do it right or don't bother.

That shop class idea is good. I used to know a guy that ran an Auto shop class at a high school so he might be a good source. Will look into that before I do it myself. Thanks...