pulpz2

This thread is intended as a technical database for correlating alignment settings and tire wear for those current Z owners who are interested in taking ownership in the “tire-feathering” problem.

Please post before and after alignment settings, as well as a brief description of the effects of any alignment changes (tire wear, straight line and turn-in stability, etc.) and mileage. And if possible, the service center and type of alignment machine used.

Although only the toe is adjustable on the Z, please post the caster and camber as well. This is relevant because some have suggested that the caster may aggravate inner and outer tread block wear (feathering).

GaryK has posted an acceptable caster setting between 7.58 to 8.92 degrees according to the Nissan repair manual.

The preferred TOTAL toe setting according to latest TSB (April 04) is 0.2 degrees (0.08 in, or 2 mm). Thus, 0.1 degrees left and 0.1 degrees right.

**This thread is not intended as a sounding board for personal frustration. However, discussions regarding the effects of alignment settings are encouraged. ** So, no bItchin’ please.

pulpz2

Date 04/01/04
Left
_______After Before
Camber -0.6 -0.6
Caster 8.1 8.1
Toe 0.03 -0.07


Right
________After Before
Camber -0.7 -0.8
Caster 8.9 8.9
Toe 0.04 -0.03

Alignment machine: Hunter series 211
mileage: 7462
Before: Tire roar and feathering inside tread blocks
After: Jittery and uncertain straight-line responsiveness

myz8a4re

iTrader: (2)

in those last 2 examples of wheel alignment it appears that toe has the biggest effect on the tire wear as these changed the most. it went from innner tire wear to outer tire wear. minimal changes were done to the other settings. im curiosu to see what would happen to the tire wear with these settings if the caster were reduced more. i just wanted add my thoughts on the adjustments as in time we may come across somthing from the commnets in between.......

-justin

pulpz2

Date 04/21/04

Left
______ After Before
Camber -0.7 -0.7
Caster 8.4 8.4
Toe 0.10 -0.01

Right
______After Before
Camber -0.6 -0.6
Caster 8.7 8.7
Toe 0.10 0.04

Alignment machine: Hunter series 211
mileage: 8054
Before: Jittery and uncertain straight-line responsiveness
After: Uncertain feel gone. Low to moderate inside and outside tread block wear.

Currently, 12,900 miles.

pulpz2

Only the toe was adjusted in both cases. I would assume the variation in the other settings would be operator, machine, and calibration error.

Some have suggested that the caster might be causing the feathering and the toe determines if it occurs on the inside or outside tread blocks. Perhaps, as you suggest, the degree of caster increases the severity of the feathering. Hopefully as Z owners contribute to this thread this relationship will be better understood.

myz8a4re

iTrader: (2)

i wish i could contribute my experience but i have too low of miles on my wheels/tires since my eibach lowering & alignment adjustments with the front/rear camber arms. i dont put many miles on the car at all...........
i too am curious to hear if somone else can comment on the factory heavy caster settings!

-justin

24aajc

I am having my tires replaced and an alignment next week. Can I ask Nissan to give me the alignment settings before and after? Or are they not obligated to provide me with that information where it is warrenty work? How do you guys get the print outs? Or do you just get lucky and depending on the dealership they give you the numbers? Also how can I trust what Nissan gives me is what the settings really are? Has anyone had their car checked at Nissan and then again at an outside shop to see if the alignment numbers match?

pulpz2

They should provide a printout showing the before, after, and specifed settings for front and back. If they refuse to privde this than consider it a red flag. Any reputable service center will gladly provide this. It's a statement of services rendered. After all, it is what you payed for. Even under warranty work - remeber the warranty is a feature of the car you purchased.

bosotheclown2002

Front Caster:

Left
Before = 9.26
Final = 9.22 <- way out of spec

Right
Before = 8.62
Final = 8.60


Front Camber:

Left
Before = -0.79
Final = -0.87

Right
Before = -1.12
Final = -1.13


Front Toe:

Left
Before = -0.02
Final = 0.04

Right
Before = 0.00
Final = 0.04

Total Toe after = 0.08


I have 5000 miles on my second set of tires after the realignment and now have "mild" feathering on the outside of the tires. The most notable thing is that the car does not handle any where like it did before the alignment, it seems more like I am driving a truck then a sports car, very stiff and hard to turn.

grifferjr

so i need to understand this right. the latest TSB from nissan that calls for .2 degree toe in. is that per tire or should your measures from both tire combine to add up to something as close to .2 as possible.

i am confused. i had my alignment done friday at a firestone, pulpz2 knows my story.

the guy there gave me some story about how he couldnt get the toe in to .2 degrees, something about how with my tires, went to 19 inch and wider, but also he kept harping on the fact that the tires are aligned in tandem. and that changing the setting on one will change the setting of the other. he described it as trying to find the middle setting that can get me as close as possible. my specs are as follows (toe-in measures only and in degrees)

Left Front:
before: -.03
after: .05

right front:
before: .16
after: .09

Left Rear:
before: -.01
after: .1

Right Rear:
before: -.17
after: .08

couple of things here that confuse me depending on the answer to my question above. why did they change my right front, as pulpz2 pointed out. it was damn near .2, unless the measure is supposed to be a combined thing.

the car now handles worse than before. the steering wheel feels spongy, less response. but if it saves some tire wear then i will deal. PLEASE HELP!!!!!

pulpz2

Sorry grifferjr. I confused myself (and you) in my last PM.

According to Chart 1 on page 18 of NTB04-043 (April 2004), the PREFERED TOTAL TOE is 0.2 degrees.This requires 0.1 degress on left and 0.1 degrees on right.

The NOMINAL TOTAL TOE is 0.1 degrees. This gives 0.05 degress left and 0.05 degress right. Currently your alignment is satisfactory according to the latest TSB.

Again, my apologies for any confusion.

grifferjr

it was brought to my attention that it might help to post my caster and camber measures also. After doing this i can now see where nissan is trying to help the situation, allbeit a temporary bandaid:

caster measures (range 7.42-8.92)
left front:
8.17

right front:
7.96

{these measures were unchanged from before align and after}

camber measures (range -1.33 to 0.17)
Left front:
before: -1.24
after: -1.23

Right Front
before: -1.33
after: -1.31

even though camber in and of itself is not adjustable it is indirectly reduced by setting for more toe in, i guess. i dont understand this stuff at all. maybe this is why the new tires are still feathering just maybe at a reduced rate. as far as caster, we are screwed there, nothing will effect that unless you can independently adjust where the cars weight is distributed over the tire.

as far as where they got the ranges for the caster and camber, dunno.

myz8a4re

iTrader: (2)

seems that the change to toe in has added some wear issues to the outside of the front tires. if im going to have any uneven wear i would much rather it be on the inside. i think to eliminate feathering altogether you would have to ahve the toe set as close as possible to "0" as well as decrease caster, again this is IMO!!

-justin

slaponte

iTrader: (2)

Recent conversation with my perf shop agrees, they claim I should go 0 Toe and probably 0 camber as well. I have camber arms on back so I can adkist those.

I have to get the numbers at home, will bring them in to post. I have the dealer delivery, inmediate aling, and an align I paid myself last Nov. This last align lasted me 10K miles or so, now I got feathering again.

I still haven't done the 0 Toe align, so can't report on that.

myz8a4re

iTrader: (2)

camber & toe changes will effect each other. this is why the aftermarket camber arm manufacturers are selling the rear trailing/traction arms. if you lower your car & get in the (-)2* rear camber range & adjust the camber into the (-)1.5* range you will get major toe out w/o enough room to adjust back into spec.(depending on how much camber you pulled out). this is where the traction arms come in, they allow for much more rear toe adjustment.......just wanted to add that!

-justin

pulpz2

grifferjr,

What degree of tire wear did you see on your first set of tires? Also, how many miles did you get out of them?

grifferjr

i cant really answer that question cause i bought the car used when it had 11k on it. i can say that prior to me owning it, the original owner, the dealer i bought it from and myself all had no idea of the feathering situation. excusable on my part, even the prior owner, but pitiful for the dealer to have no idea, a nissan dealer too in cincy.

anyway very looooong story short, i go in for my first oil change in december at about 15k and the OEM fronts were worn to the chords on the inside. after some serious haggling, i had the dealer pay for new fronts out of their pocket and had the RE92 all seasons put on at 15k. They also did the alignment then with close interaction with nissan. this is why when the latest april TSB came out my dealer said i was fine cause when they talked to nissan in december they were given these specs, nissan just hadnt released them yet.

i recently got the car new shoes and to make sure i went to firestone on my own to have alignment checked and my specs were as you see above (or maybe by now the first page of the thread). the tread on the RE92's i switched off had 12k miles on them and visually no feathering, but remember they are a harder compound plus have a different outer tread pattern, not as easy to see the feathering. when i rolled them into the back of my garage they would roll to the inside where as the rears rolled straight. so they obviously had some feathering also. not as bad but there. sorry but the length but believe me taht is very much the crash course cliff note version of all that i have been through. and to top it all off, as you know pulpz2, i am still in the middle of it all. as we all are.

grifferjr

THIS JUST IN:

I just came back from Firestone who has our Hunter machine in the area and they just told me that they received newer specs on alignments.

They said that these specs were specified from Nissan and came downloaded through the Hunter system. Prior to this the Firestone dealer was just going by specs that were hand entered from a fax they received from the local Nissan Dealer.

From what I saw there were two main differences. First the specs included 2004 350Z's (maybe nissan is preparing to launch a campaign similar to that of the one for the 03's for the 04's). Second the nominal toe-in has changed a little to .1 degree versus the previous .2 degree. Maybe this will alleve the wear that is now occurring on the outer edges of the tread.

just telling you what i was told at firestone. take it for what you think it is worth. i can tell you this. having this done throughout the day and my co-workers only having an outside view of this thing. They think i am nuts for owning this car.

pulpz2

Great Info!

As far as the coworkers are concerned, maybe you should let them drive the car for a weekend! I'm sure it would change their minds.

Zrated

Unfortunately I don't have any of my alignment specs, I never got them from the dealer.

I Thought I'd give some input about my feathering issue.

My car is a 2003 early # Preorder Track Model.

I have brought my car to the dealer 2 times for this issue. First at about 5500 miles with feathering. The dealer only performed an alignment at that point. About 6000 miles later I had bad road noise and feathering again. I brought the car in and they performed the latest TSB. They rotated my tires from left to right and performed an alignment. It has been around 6000 miles (probably over) since, and I have no sign of the feathering returning. I still have the original tires, wheels, and suspension.


I really hope, for all of us, that this may be the answer to the problem.