Track Driver vs Backroad Driver: Death Match!
04-09-2009, 03:34 PM
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OP, this about the dumbest thing I have ever read. Please except my offer, the first weekend in May I will be at CMP racing, I'll spot you five second on my best lap. You win I'll give you $200 bucks, I win you only come on the forum and apologies for your Tom foolery.
Respectfully yours,
mpowers
"a track driver learns the road is no place to f around"
Respectfully yours,
mpowers
"a track driver learns the road is no place to f around"
04-09-2009, 04:07 PM
#43
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OP, this about the dumbest thing I have ever read. Please except my offer, the first weekend in May I will be at CMP racing, I'll spot you five second on my best lap. You win I'll give you $200 bucks, I win you only come on the forum and apologies for your Tom foolery.
Respectfully yours,
mpowers
"a track driver learns the road is no place to f around"
Respectfully yours,
mpowers
"a track driver learns the road is no place to f around"
(I love these guys)Perhaps you did not read the thread correctly... is this too intellectual for you? These are mere theories for discussion, and then some Tom Fooleries like yourself come in like some macho-macho man challenging others to some $200 dollar race? If that's the case, then JohnnyHT is totally right:
So this challenge you place by supposedly beating me and giving me a whole 5 second head start *WOW!* Is that to prove you can get a better track time than someone else and perhaps increase your own self-worth? Do you need to challenge people whom you've never met (on an online forum of all places
) in order to feel better about yourself? Usually people who exhibit this behavior have low-self esteem for they need to *prove* themselves in one way or another... holddup.. was any of this thread even directed toward you? No? Didn't think so... do you always take things so seriously... since ya know... it's only the internet n all 
. You must have a lot of pride in your expert driving abilities... yet a little lacking in the intellectual field.Now if this thread was titled, "All you track drivers suck and I'll prove it to you!" Then your challenge might be taken seriously, however if your offer is to see how much faster you can go around a silly little road course against someone whom you've never met before in your entire life + $200 + 5 sec head start... and for what? To prove your point to a complete stranger because you're so high and mighty? Does it look like I need $200 to even care? (don't let the McDonalds getup fool you unless your IQ is really that low to take everything on here seriously)
And BTW, I give you permission to apologize for completely missing the point of this thread
Respectfully yours,
-The infamous Burger Flipper
PS. I respect comments given by those like Driven1, Axelerate and others - they actually contribute to the discussion and development of the theory, thus an intellectual discussion - we are on a my350z forum after all. Did you need a definition? Here you go: an assembly, meeting place, television program, etc., for the discussion of questions of public interest. I even highlighted the keyword for you in that one. Don't post too soon junior prior to reading and comprehending.
PPS. Hope ya didn't have a bad day at work or something, I'll give you a free Sundae to cheer you up Macho Man
04-09-2009, 04:20 PM
#44
It sounds like you are set on learning a course and adapting to the unknown.
You should probably try auto-x since the courses are always different and those that are able to go fast there first run do well.
Some track drivers take some time to go fast on a new track, some drivers I have seen even with no experience on the track and have no problem going 10/10ths on their first laps.
Some people's learing curve/comfort levels are different. It really doesn't have anything to do with the type of driving they do, but just the driver.
You should probably try auto-x since the courses are always different and those that are able to go fast there first run do well.
Some track drivers take some time to go fast on a new track, some drivers I have seen even with no experience on the track and have no problem going 10/10ths on their first laps.
Some people's learing curve/comfort levels are different. It really doesn't have anything to do with the type of driving they do, but just the driver.
04-09-2009, 04:53 PM
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Wow, some people are just incredibly sensitive.
Hey, if you make it $2,000 I might go instead
For $200 I don't even put my pants on!!
Some people here talk like they have never accelerated their car... take it easy people
Track - Too Expensive.
Drag Race - Boring.
AutoX - Too much time sitting down.
Back Roads - Dangerous.
Street Race - Cops.
Everything has its downs... So Im gonna go and play PSP, which only down is the battery life!!
Hey, if you make it $2,000 I might go instead
For $200 I don't even put my pants on!!Some people here talk like they have never accelerated their car... take it easy people
Track - Too Expensive.
Drag Race - Boring.
AutoX - Too much time sitting down.
Back Roads - Dangerous.
Street Race - Cops.
Everything has its downs... So Im gonna go and play PSP, which only down is the battery life!!
04-09-2009, 06:02 PM
#46
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The point is - there is no preparation time prior to hitting the course. So what type of knowledge would best suite changing variables on (____ road?)
By Road Knowledge I mean all types of roads. Say you take an average joe and throw him on a perfectly flat smooth paved track and tell him to get the best lap time in 1 try. Then you throw him on a mountain pass and you tell him to get to the bottom of the mountain as fast as he can in 1 try.
If he's been trained in one type of road all his life, and for argument sake say it was that perfectly paved track - then he's going to get a great lap time if he gets thrown on similar tracks since he's used to this type of driving style correct? You can safely apply what you learn at say.. Summit Point to certain turns or straights at VIR.
And say this individual drives on tracks his entire life w/o any backroad experience, he's a track superstar.
However, if you place the same individual in an unknown environment whether that be a backroad/mountain road or whatever road that is out of his immediate comfort zone - he'll have a totally different mentality when tackling the course and totally different driving style solely because he's never encountered such types of roads before in his entire life.
Knowledge is based upon possible experience, if the driver has never experienced roads with potholes, hillcimbs, flooded areas, and jumps, chances are that this "expert" track driver is not really going to know how to handle it on his/her first try.
Now the theory is: just because you drive on a track doesn't mean you're going to be good on a backroad and vice versa. Therefore, the solution to such a problem would be to introduce many types of environments for the individual to learn in in order to expand his capacity to learn changing variables regardless of what type of road or track he's thrown onto. The bottom line is: knowing how to drive on a track alone won't make you the best driver.
By Road Knowledge I mean all types of roads. Say you take an average joe and throw him on a perfectly flat smooth paved track and tell him to get the best lap time in 1 try. Then you throw him on a mountain pass and you tell him to get to the bottom of the mountain as fast as he can in 1 try.
If he's been trained in one type of road all his life, and for argument sake say it was that perfectly paved track - then he's going to get a great lap time if he gets thrown on similar tracks since he's used to this type of driving style correct? You can safely apply what you learn at say.. Summit Point to certain turns or straights at VIR.
And say this individual drives on tracks his entire life w/o any backroad experience, he's a track superstar.
However, if you place the same individual in an unknown environment whether that be a backroad/mountain road or whatever road that is out of his immediate comfort zone - he'll have a totally different mentality when tackling the course and totally different driving style solely because he's never encountered such types of roads before in his entire life.
Knowledge is based upon possible experience, if the driver has never experienced roads with potholes, hillcimbs, flooded areas, and jumps, chances are that this "expert" track driver is not really going to know how to handle it on his/her first try.
Now the theory is: just because you drive on a track doesn't mean you're going to be good on a backroad and vice versa. Therefore, the solution to such a problem would be to introduce many types of environments for the individual to learn in in order to expand his capacity to learn changing variables regardless of what type of road or track he's thrown onto. The bottom line is: knowing how to drive on a track alone won't make you the best driver.
Well my comment on that would be a driver is still a driver and the pavement is still the pavement. Your talking kowledge (of the pavement or "course") vs. lack of knowledge (of the pavement or "course")....this is a reactionary style of driving that requires a different set of skills (basically ***** b/c there is an element of fear (is that a skill?) that comes with not knowing what comes next) than if you have any type knowledge of whats next.
It comes down to who has more "*****" and is a different kind of driving all together. Proactive driving vs. Reactive driving
Proactive Driving requires a skill that is never even applied in reactive driving which is properly being able to set yourself up for what comes next (or 3 turns technically) and truely make it through the "course" (remember pavement is still pavement) the fasted way possible (this includes the option for proper gear as well). You will use your brakes quite a bit more in reactive driving.
Give and experience skilled driver a map of the "backroad" (you always have course maps to study before you run a track for the first time...a different skill that an "track driver" would have) and I can almost guarantee he'll do it faster the first time. Without knowing the "course" it's a reactive style of driving b/c you don't know whats coming next. You know whats coming next it's a completely different
game (even just a map).
Its not about the fastest time or quickest down the backroad or around the track but its about who's a better reactive driver and is willing to risk the most by not knowing whats next.
Last edited by Driven1; 04-10-2009 at 05:30 AM.
04-09-2009, 06:13 PM
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Ok I'll flip and apologies. I did not read your op, only a few highlights. So I went back and reread it to be respectfully yours.
After some digestion I came to the conclusion (yes I did not read replies by others) that this is all rather simple. Yes there are a many back roads driver who do drive better than the average racer or track participant. Only because this is all they had available to them. Thus they made use of what they had. At one point I was one of those idiots.
If you were to take two childeren, gave one proper lessons on carts/dirt bikes and the other only had a power wheels and a Huffy. Who do you think would be a better diver on public roads and the track. Our young cart driver here would understand and respect an unkown (public road) far greater than Huffy boy. A lesson soon learned after many folks first track day.
I'm first to say I think a good bit of "pro's" are only in the race because they simply have the money.
But if someone (recall I was one of those idiots) feel they can do this only on the street because they can't afford to go to the track are only fooling themselves. Tom Foolery-one bad moment in judgement and you could have paid for a years worth of track events.
As for the personal attack, yes I do believe I am that good. But isn't any part of either racing on the street or the track, smack talk, puffing out you chest? Or are you only good with a key board?
mpowers
After some digestion I came to the conclusion (yes I did not read replies by others) that this is all rather simple. Yes there are a many back roads driver who do drive better than the average racer or track participant. Only because this is all they had available to them. Thus they made use of what they had. At one point I was one of those idiots.
If you were to take two childeren, gave one proper lessons on carts/dirt bikes and the other only had a power wheels and a Huffy. Who do you think would be a better diver on public roads and the track. Our young cart driver here would understand and respect an unkown (public road) far greater than Huffy boy. A lesson soon learned after many folks first track day.
I'm first to say I think a good bit of "pro's" are only in the race because they simply have the money.
But if someone (recall I was one of those idiots) feel they can do this only on the street because they can't afford to go to the track are only fooling themselves. Tom Foolery-one bad moment in judgement and you could have paid for a years worth of track events.
As for the personal attack, yes I do believe I am that good. But isn't any part of either racing on the street or the track, smack talk, puffing out you chest? Or are you only good with a key board?
mpowers
04-09-2009, 09:46 PM
#49
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That's some really good insight Axel and Robbie: 2 New Concepts - Learning curve + Proactive vs Reactive - Great food for thought. Though I've noticed people's learning curves increase dramatically for first timers if they pace a more experienced driver.
mpowers, thank you for the excellent analogy. And to answer your question - I am pretty darn handy with a keyboard! - if you get on Starcraft or World of Warcraft... people just quit since they don't stand a chance against these fast fingers. Ask Rich150001 or bb1314, I'm like the epitome of a super nerdy chocolate stained wife beater wearing 6 inch thick glasses overweight coach potato keyboard internet god. In reality however, I just have high post counts and many years of law under my belt which makes me look like I know what I'm talking about but would probably get my butt handed to me by any1 on here on any type of road course... hell... I got a built motor w/ twin turbos but I've never hit boost or drive past 3k RPMs... ask Keith superchargedg, he makes fun of me all the time!
But as far as challenges go, I only accept dance battles. You can ask AtomicGoofball, I can totally toast him in a freeze-off. We have pics to prove.
BTW Keith, if you're reading this - you got yourself that oil cooler yet? It's been 3 yrs!
mpowers, thank you for the excellent analogy. And to answer your question - I am pretty darn handy with a keyboard! - if you get on Starcraft or World of Warcraft... people just quit since they don't stand a chance against these fast fingers. Ask Rich150001 or bb1314, I'm like the epitome of a super nerdy chocolate stained wife beater wearing 6 inch thick glasses overweight coach potato keyboard internet god. In reality however, I just have high post counts and many years of law under my belt which makes me look like I know what I'm talking about but would probably get my butt handed to me by any1 on here on any type of road course... hell... I got a built motor w/ twin turbos but I've never hit boost or drive past 3k RPMs... ask Keith superchargedg, he makes fun of me all the time!
But as far as challenges go, I only accept dance battles. You can ask AtomicGoofball, I can totally toast him in a freeze-off. We have pics to prove.
BTW Keith, if you're reading this - you got yourself that oil cooler yet? It's been 3 yrs!
04-10-2009, 09:15 AM
#53
That's some really good insight Axel and Robbie: 2 New Concepts - Learning curve + Proactive vs Reactive - Great food for thought. Though I've noticed people's learning curves increase dramatically for first timers if they pace a more experienced driver.
mpowers, thank you for the excellent analogy. And to answer your question - I am pretty darn handy with a keyboard! - if you get on Starcraft or World of Warcraft... people just quit since they don't stand a chance against these fast fingers. Ask Rich150001 or bb1314, I'm like the epitome of a super nerdy chocolate stained wife beater wearing 6 inch thick glasses overweight coach potato keyboard internet god. In reality however, I just have high post counts and many years of law under my belt which makes me look like I know what I'm talking about but would probably get my butt handed to me by any1 on here on any type of road course... hell... I got a built motor w/ twin turbos but I've never hit boost or drive past 3k RPMs... ask Keith superchargedg, he makes fun of me all the time!
But as far as challenges go, I only accept dance battles. You can ask AtomicGoofball, I can totally toast him in a freeze-off. We have pics to prove.
BTW Keith, if you're reading this - you got yourself that oil cooler yet? It's been 3 yrs!
mpowers, thank you for the excellent analogy. And to answer your question - I am pretty darn handy with a keyboard! - if you get on Starcraft or World of Warcraft... people just quit since they don't stand a chance against these fast fingers. Ask Rich150001 or bb1314, I'm like the epitome of a super nerdy chocolate stained wife beater wearing 6 inch thick glasses overweight coach potato keyboard internet god. In reality however, I just have high post counts and many years of law under my belt which makes me look like I know what I'm talking about but would probably get my butt handed to me by any1 on here on any type of road course... hell... I got a built motor w/ twin turbos but I've never hit boost or drive past 3k RPMs... ask Keith superchargedg, he makes fun of me all the time!
But as far as challenges go, I only accept dance battles. You can ask AtomicGoofball, I can totally toast him in a freeze-off. We have pics to prove.
BTW Keith, if you're reading this - you got yourself that oil cooler yet? It's been 3 yrs!
its just for the transmission.
04-10-2009, 11:42 AM
#54
Add another possible factor into the equation. Drivers that have wrecked vs. drivers that haven't... yet. Going back to your motorcycle analogy, there are only 2 types of riders, those that have been down and those that are going down. Its not until you lay a bike down that you fully respect what can happen when you do. I imagine that it is similar with cars, if you've never lost it on the highway or parked it in a ditch on a backroad, you may have a different outlook on what is safe or fun.
I have done many stupid things - lost my license for drag racing when I was 16 (5 days after I got my license), spun out on the highway in the rain doing 75 mph ad had a friend die on a back road in a head on collision going to pick up cigs one night. I still enjoy tearing up a back road every now and then, but usually on my bike, not in my Z.
IMO the older you get the more you consider the consequences of the unexpected and the impact it can have on not just you, but on friends and family as well. I am by no means calling anyone immature or idiotic, I did all of these things when I was younger too and I'm still down for a good street race just about anytime, its just that the risks seem much greater now.
I have done many stupid things - lost my license for drag racing when I was 16 (5 days after I got my license), spun out on the highway in the rain doing 75 mph ad had a friend die on a back road in a head on collision going to pick up cigs one night. I still enjoy tearing up a back road every now and then, but usually on my bike, not in my Z.
IMO the older you get the more you consider the consequences of the unexpected and the impact it can have on not just you, but on friends and family as well. I am by no means calling anyone immature or idiotic, I did all of these things when I was younger too and I'm still down for a good street race just about anytime, its just that the risks seem much greater now.
04-10-2009, 12:21 PM
#55
Add another possible factor into the equation. Drivers that have wrecked vs. drivers that haven't... yet. Going back to your motorcycle analogy, there are only 2 types of riders, those that have been down and those that are going down. Its not until you lay a bike down that you fully respect what can happen when you do. I imagine that it is similar with cars, if you've never lost it on the highway or parked it in a ditch on a backroad, you may have a different outlook on what is safe or fun.
I have done many stupid things - lost my license for drag racing when I was 16 (5 days after I got my license), spun out on the highway in the rain doing 75 mph ad had a friend die on a back road in a head on collision going to pick up cigs one night. I still enjoy tearing up a back road every now and then, but usually on my bike, not in my Z.
IMO the older you get the more you consider the consequences of the unexpected and the impact it can have on not just you, but on friends and family as well. I am by no means calling anyone immature or idiotic, I did all of these things when I was younger too and I'm still down for a good street race just about anytime, its just that the risks seem much greater now.
I have done many stupid things - lost my license for drag racing when I was 16 (5 days after I got my license), spun out on the highway in the rain doing 75 mph ad had a friend die on a back road in a head on collision going to pick up cigs one night. I still enjoy tearing up a back road every now and then, but usually on my bike, not in my Z.
IMO the older you get the more you consider the consequences of the unexpected and the impact it can have on not just you, but on friends and family as well. I am by no means calling anyone immature or idiotic, I did all of these things when I was younger too and I'm still down for a good street race just about anytime, its just that the risks seem much greater now.
04-10-2009, 01:00 PM
#56
Even before you have kids, if you have a good job and some nice things. If you have a bad wreck that you are at fault for and hurt someone else or even wreck into the wrong car (like a new Mercedes S class), you can exhaust the policy limits on your insurance quickly and then get a nasty civil suit that can cost you your posessions, 401K and/or include wage garnishment of current and future earnings.
I think I am getting away from the spirit of the OP though. IMO its how familiar a driver is with the course or road that would make the biggest difference. Put me on a back road that I know well and a track driver isn't familiar with and I will crush it every time. Vice versa with putting me on a track I don't know. I 100% agree with Robbie that on the back roads its more about ***** (or lack of concern for consequences). Is it possible that a back roads driver would be slightly wierded out travelling at high speeds in a pack of cars entering a turn where holding a line (not necessarily the optimum line) in traffic is expected and failure to do so will result in many cars crashing. Track drivers may be wierded out by trees be 2 feet off the road surface and having telephone poles placed right at the fail point of corners (welcome to PA). Drivers love to drive and some are better than others under different circumstances, but ***** is always a major factor, no matter where you get down.
I think I am getting away from the spirit of the OP though. IMO its how familiar a driver is with the course or road that would make the biggest difference. Put me on a back road that I know well and a track driver isn't familiar with and I will crush it every time. Vice versa with putting me on a track I don't know. I 100% agree with Robbie that on the back roads its more about ***** (or lack of concern for consequences). Is it possible that a back roads driver would be slightly wierded out travelling at high speeds in a pack of cars entering a turn where holding a line (not necessarily the optimum line) in traffic is expected and failure to do so will result in many cars crashing. Track drivers may be wierded out by trees be 2 feet off the road surface and having telephone poles placed right at the fail point of corners (welcome to PA). Drivers love to drive and some are better than others under different circumstances, but ***** is always a major factor, no matter where you get down.
Last edited by Cass007; 04-10-2009 at 01:14 PM.
04-10-2009, 01:54 PM
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^ I totally agree with that one. Backroad drivers are so used to braking every 5 seconds and having random things pop out infront of them... but put the same driver on a track - he'll totally be out of his element since maintaining a line with a pack of other cars @ 120mph+ could really creep someone out. Most backroad drivers never even experience any corner faster than 50mph... let alone corners that require the triple digit range to keep up.
04-10-2009, 05:28 PM
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Would a rally driver qualify as a track driver since it is a premapped course? If so how do you think would they stand up to the backroad driver abui? They are experienced drivers and most have done some type of track time and high performance driver education.
04-10-2009, 05:37 PM
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i really cannot believe I am posting on this thread for so many reasons but I guess thats in the past now.
First let me state I think this is stupid as hell but for what reasons I won't say to simply avoid the hours of drama that would follow.
second- i feel that since I did contribute to this thread I should atleast chime in with a someone respectable comment. So what about a rally driver? that is pretty much a combination of both, except he/she has some seriously large ***** and is driving at 11/10th's 100% of the time. That may have already been covered in this thread but truthfully about 2 of the 3 pages really weren't worth reading.
thirdly i don't think there is really anything to compare here. One person is driving with a purpose of position or better lap time with precision and smoothness. The other person is pretty much just trying not to end up wrapped around a telephone pole.
I don't see the benefit of being a good road driver. being a good track driver however would translate into a good road driver. the likely hood of a on road surface suprise is MUCH MUCH Less likely the a on track surface suprise. EVERYONE on the track is at 10/10th's, where that is not true on the road.
First let me state I think this is stupid as hell but for what reasons I won't say to simply avoid the hours of drama that would follow.
second- i feel that since I did contribute to this thread I should atleast chime in with a someone respectable comment. So what about a rally driver? that is pretty much a combination of both, except he/she has some seriously large ***** and is driving at 11/10th's 100% of the time. That may have already been covered in this thread but truthfully about 2 of the 3 pages really weren't worth reading.
thirdly i don't think there is really anything to compare here. One person is driving with a purpose of position or better lap time with precision and smoothness. The other person is pretty much just trying not to end up wrapped around a telephone pole.
I don't see the benefit of being a good road driver. being a good track driver however would translate into a good road driver. the likely hood of a on road surface suprise is MUCH MUCH Less likely the a on track surface suprise. EVERYONE on the track is at 10/10th's, where that is not true on the road.