abui01

iTrader: (68)

Disclaimer: If you did not read the thread: please do not respond. *Hint: this is not about street racing and yes we all know it's "dumb!" LOL
vs
I had a discussion w/ a few gear-heads over this concept and we concluded a few things: As funny as this may sound, (and not to bash any type of driving style) I have yet seen any track drivers do extremely well on a backroad. Why? Because on a track:

-they don't have to worry about 6ft ditches
-they don't have to worry about other cars colliding into them head-on from the other direction
-they don't have to worry about trees that happen to appear out of no where
-they don't anticipate a deer/animal will jump out at them at any given second
-they don't have to worry about jumping their cars on unknown hills since the course is usually flat w/o dips and bumps
-they don't have to worry about blind corners
-they don't have to worry about vision since it's usually in the day time vs at night on a backroad where what you see is dictated by what your headlights shine on
-they don't have to worry about police chasing them

Given the fact that yes, you can push your car to the limits on a track and the only thing you have to worry about is hitting a grass or gravel spot. However, let's say by some mysterious force of nature that some hoodlum challenges you to a backroad dual to the death... what do you do? Do you tell them, "Take it to VIR pal!" or would you tell them, "close the road and tell all pizza boys to find another way home! Let's do this!" Not to say anyone would actually accept such a silly challenge from a random stranger, but if they were to, what type of skill is more useful?

Sure you can bust an amazing 1min 57sec sec lap time at your local track, but how well are you going to do on the street when there are no rules, you have no idea what your opponent is running, you guys aren't divided into "classes," and let alone a road that is totally unknown to you? Is track knowledge all that knowledgable or perhaps there's more to learning the limits of your car that's simply not on a flat paved road-course?

*on the flip side: I've seen many backroad drivers "adapt" to a road course a lot quicker than a guy who strictly drives on a road course

ZS14RR

iTrader: (30)

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.......

bb1314

iTrader: (62)

LOL.. this reminds me of that one time me and Anh cruised back to Great Falls using the backroad after D&B. All I can say is there's no way I could be flying down the backroad like that if I wasn't behind Anh and was just following whatever he was doing.

Axelerate

iTrader: (19)

the only thing you listed that is correct about track driving would be being chased by Police.

-they don't have to worry about 6ft ditches
If you go far enough off track you will find them.



-they don't have to worry about other cars colliding into them head-on from the other direction
If the car in front of you spins, or vice-versa yeah it happens.



-they don't have to worry about trees that happen to appear out of no where
see above.



-they don't anticipate a deer/animal will jump out at them at any given second
Deer are all over VIR and Summit and have caused quite a lot of car/driver damage.



-they don't have to worry about jumping their cars on unknown hills since the course is usually flat w/o dips and bumps
Summit Point isn't very smooth, and curbing can be a pretty big bump.



-they don't have to worry about blind corners
Many tracks do have them, but if you learn the track you get used to it, still someone could be spun out waiting for you.



-they don't have to worry about vision since it's usually in the day time vs at night on a backroad where what you see is dictated by what your headlights shine on
Try driving on track with the sun in or eyes, or with a dust cloud, and sometimes you have to deal with the spray coming off a car going 100+ mph in the wet.



-they don't have to worry about police chasing them
On track no, on the way to and from the track yes.



Have you been to a track yet? You live pretty close to Summit Point. I have done my fair share of backroad driving and it can be fun, but nothing compares to being on track. You just can't get the grip and speed on the street. Also, driving on track is 150x safer than driving on the street. Everyone on track is also trying to go faster as safely as possible.


I would be more than happy to give you a ride in my Z on track. I will be at Summit at the end of the month if your up for it?


Now, the question is who's the better driver? A trained racing driver or someone who drives on some backroads? I rather pay to drive on track than get paid to drive my car on the street. There is no comparison. Also, why would I waist my time and license driving on the street when I could just go to the track?

abui01

iTrader: (68)

Ditches:
I noticed this is a huge weakness for Track drivers on a backroad. I've followed a few and they tend to leave about 1-2ft of space from the passenger wheel from the rail/ditch. They're not used to driving when there's a drop-off on either side whereas on a track you tend to have at least 6ft of grass/gravel on both sides of the course. Track drivers also tend to stay more in their lane and don't cross the double yellows as often as backroad drivers do... I suppose they fear an oncoming car or some sort? (since tracks don't have cars going in both directions on the same road!) That's also another weakness I've noted - they can easily be overtaken on the driver's side since they leave an entire lane open for passing. (or at least the ones I've followed)

Trees:
The chances are higher of smacking a spun out car than a tree on a track. But on a backroad - sometimes you might have an entire tree laying in your lane which is totally unpredictable. Tracks tend to be more predictable in terms of "the road doesn't change as often." Actually, just a few nights ago I was out with Kat, GMUeip, and a few others and I had to stop in the middle of the road to move a gigantic 6ft branch before any1 plowed into it, LOL

Hills:
Track guys wouldn't have to worry much about this one (unless it's a curb of course, but that's not the same as a hill), but there was one night where my friend launched his car (literally) in the air and flew 8-10ft before he landed back on the ground... you'd have to take this into consideration if you're traveling insane speeds on a backroad but track drivers wouldn't really equate launching their car in mid-air into the equation when driving as "part of the course." Therefore, when it does happen, how will your track driving skills help when you've never encountered "jumping?" Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't know of many tracks that you can launch your car in mid-air going up a 45 degree incline and fly 15+ ft. (unless it's a rally course, which is a totally different ballpark) This was actually a technique I used against a track driver to get infront of him, he had absolutely no idea what to do on "jumps" on this one backroad where it's possible to count the seconds when u're flying through the air. Even worse when you jump and you have to take an immediate sharp left/right turn or smack a tree!

Road Mist/Spray:
I think track drivers have much more of an advantage in this department w/ mist spraying on their windshields than backroad drivers since most backroads don't exceed the speed limit of 50mph per turn and never really have to suffer this issue. I can't even imagine hitting past triple digits on a backroad since 1 little mistake and u're toast!

However, if you're planning on hitting up Summit this season, I'm totally down to ride shotgun! I'm planning to get loads of seat time because I believe that knowing both worlds: Track and Backroads will make someone a much more refined driver. In theory if you think about it, how much time do you spend on the street compared to a track? 1/1000? I've seen most track drivers do wonderful on their designated road course, but when we all get together and do a midnight run through a mountain pass - they're definitely not bad but I've seen some backroad gurus outrun track guys.

Essentially, you're stripping everything that track drivers are used to: flat paved road courses w/ no potholes, no hills, and no obstacles (whether moving or stationary) and you're placing him/her into an environment that is totally the opposite of a safe learning experience... how well will they do? One thing I noted that backroad drivers have the advantage in is: they tend to calculate changing variables a lot quicker. Anything can happen at any second... backroad drivers are used to that and they're on alert 24/7 whereas the Track guy would only have to worry about a spun out car head of them which can (most of the time) be spotted at a fairly long distance away. However, if you crash on a backroad... the guy behind you isn't going to see you unless he's 5ft away from you coming around that blind corner.

On that note: I grabbed a VIR schedule this season and it looks promising! Most people don't know how wonderful and beneficial seat time is and would rather spend their money on mods just because other people are doing it. I suggest anyone that's hardcore into driving to take a look at spending more time @ the track to learn their cars stock... then mod it... and when you have time - lets go play on some backroads

HeyItsDan

iTrader: (18)

I've never really been on Backroads, but it sounds like fun. Let me know when you're planning something and I'd love to join. Even tho Etan says my driving sucks lol

JohnnyHT

iTrader: (2)

Here are the things that seperates the two:
Stupidity and ignorance

I REFUSE to endanger others around me for sake of my PRIDE or to prove my SELF-WORTH.

If I run off on the track, I'm endangering MYSELF and not some mother taking her kid to soccer practice.

Think of others before trying to prove your self-worth. If you need to "prove" yourself to others...you have a lot of growing up to do.

.02

.steeeeZ33.

iTrader: (27)

when i hit up burnt hill, Mullinix mill, etc etc.... u stop caring.

Backroad driving will always be funner than Track driving.. the adrenaline rush is what takes it.

.steeeeZ33.

iTrader: (27)

when u work 6 days a week, and have no money, backroads are the closest ull get to driving on a track......

KAT_Ayanami

iTrader: (1)

Thought the same. The only way I was able to keep up was because I was following. And even then I felt like I needed to leave several feet to make sure I could react in time to hard braking situation.

I was left behind once because of my freaking iPod falling on my lap, and it was scary to catch up without seeing tail lights. Good thing the Z has great high beams.


You have some reason on what you say, but let me clarify some points:

1. If you have a Z, I am sure you must be racing it on the streets at some point. So stupidity and ignorance would be mutual.
(If you say no, just sell the car, son. And don't come with crap like AutoX or track, because you are not doing that).

2. Endanger others because of "pride"? I had searched with "Ctr F" the word "pride", and you are the only one that has used it on this topic.
Joy? Fun? Adrenaline Rush? Maybe. Pride? I thought that was a brand...

3. If you get out the track, you can kill many more people other that yourself. But it is a sport like any other one. Boxing or K1 fighting is more dangerous and you see hundreds of people hitting each other!

The only difference is that you endanger people that agrees to taking that risk instead of the streets.
Although, taking a car is always a risk since I have found out that 16 year old drivers and 70+ year old drivers are more dangerous at regular speed than us when we go full speed.

4. This is usually done at AM time, so, no soccer moms.

5. We all have a lot of growing to do. Don't come here like that, you will make us feel bad

Axelerate

iTrader: (19)

Shanandoah Circuit has a hill called the "Ski Jump" on the back straight. You can literally launch you car in the air. Ask anyone who's been to, or participated in the Red Line Time Attack event there.



As far as being aware on your surroundings, you have to be %100 alert on track and look 3 turns ahead of you. You have to watch corner workers, other cars in front of you, behind you, observe the track surface, and keep your line. I get pretty tired form doing a day of tracking because of all the concentration that is required.

Try driving your car down a curvy road all day in snow and ice with other drivers. That's the same level of concentration it takes.


I've lost a wheel on track, had multiple Porsche's blow motors in front of me dropping oil/coolant, dodged car parts on track (splitters), almost been hit twice by out of control vehicles, done a couple 360's on track, done way more than that off track, avoided contact with a squirrel, oh and I've gone 120 mph in the snow.




All of this took place while on track. It is by no means a controlled environment and anything can happen. The big difference is that it's legal, everyone is aware of their surroundings and all are there to have fun and stay safe.

I really don't drive on back roads now because it's boring to me. I save my tires/brakes/gas for the track.

Axelerate

iTrader: (19)

You have a track within a hour distance of you. Instead of buying something new for your Z, do a track event. You will have a lot more fun than any new mod.



I have to drive 4 hours to get to a track and I work 6 10 hour days. I take my vacations at the track.

.steeeeZ33.

iTrader: (27)

do they Have ONLY sunday track days? frm what i know, they have weekend track events..

i have a shop to run.

Axelerate

iTrader: (19)

Yes, some events will allow you to run one day.

abui01

iTrader: (68)

LOL, I was afraid someone would take this thread the wrong way and misinterpret the technicalities behind the actual discussion. Notice this thread was to discuss technique and driving style (backroad vs track)... and then all of a sudden you turn it around and speak of morals and beliefs and soccer moms? Huh? Did I miss something? Now if this thread was titled, "Backroads rule! All you track junkies SUCK! Street Racer 4 LYFE FoO!" Then your statement would thus prove valid - yes, accepting to race some stranger on the road to prove uh... pride? is very stupid indeed. Couldn't agree with ya more buddy!! well... minus the fact that this thread totally isn't about that, but you're free to start a new one if you like

However, since we're on the topic, I'll be kind and answer the statement at hand. First off, the thread title is: Track Driver vs Backroad Driver, and you say:
So... Track driving is stupidity and Backroad Driving is ignorance? Did I get that right?
Wait... you're confusing me again... who said anything about pride or self-worth? OHH was that an assumption.. Yes? *scratch head* time-out guys... time-out... I'm lost... wasn't this a technical discussion?
NoOo... if you run off the track - by definition you're not only endangering yourself, but you lack skills and the ability to control your vehicle. You also endanger the lives of those driving behind you. So to answer your question, "No," the world does not revolve around you just because you're in a controlled environment: read Axelerate's previous post about his track experience. And who said anything about soccer moms? Is that what you're afraid of when you drive backroads... that you'll hit soccer moms at 2am? Is this based on your actual experience because soccer moms were never mentioned in this thread whatsoever.

Please don't assume others have the same concerns you do if you cannot properly drive a backroad. Most professional backroad drivers are actually a lot safer than your average driver in general unless you're used to hanging around immature teenage Honda boys... oh yeah... weren't you one of those guys if I remember correctly?
Ah! Maybe that's where all these concerns are coming from, yes... I would definitely have to worry about colliding into soccer moms (or anyone for that matter at 2am in the morning) if you were hanging around inexperienced drivers. Good Luck on the road to you my friend

But for the sake of argumentation, lets say that Mr. Johnny Tran I mean... Johnny H Tran had a Honda Two-Thous... umm... opps I mean 350z. And he swears by "not endangering the lives of anyone else but his own." (Oh BTW, I love guys who say this) because by saying this, you're basically saying, "I NEVER in my LIFE went past the posted speed limit, I have stopped at every stop sign, obeyed every traffic law every written within my entire driving career." Because BY definition, a person who is sooo hardcore into following these morals and beliefs and "growing up and being mature" etc. etc. etc. would by in no doubt - follow and obey all the laws of the land thus not ever breaking one rule. And that includes - never attempted to street race any other individual... hell.. why even modify your car? Wait.. don't you have test pipes you're going to install?
So you're planning on polluting the air by allowing more emissions gas flow into our atmosphere? If you're going to preach about the stupidity of street racing - Do you want me to bring in a tree-hugger onto this forum so she can preach to you what a horrible person you are? So you never revved your exhaust louder than the acceptable decibel or gunned it on the highway to hear how it sounds after you installed it? (oh and IF you have... and this is a BIG IF for you right? You might.. you juuuust might be endangering all those soccer moms on the road so be careful!) Like if you're going to preach what's right vs wrong or what's immature/ignorant/stupid, then the least you can do is start following your own beliefs and quit trying to be "Mr. Righteous" and condemning all street racing or anything illegal. If you've ever sped even 1mph past the speed limit - you're committing an illegal act and BY DEFINITION, possibly "endangering the lives of soccer moms." And if you're so hardcore in your beliefs that you:
Then follow EVERY SINGLE Traffic law ever written and don't ever speed 1mph past the posted limit. The funniest thing is, most people who preach this stuff on the forums either commit the crime themselves or have committed it in the past; I really don't understand hypocrites.

Jgrizzle

iTrader: (7)

This thread made me think a little bit. I agree they are two completely different styles. Its almost like if a pro boxer got into a street fight who would do better? I think this debate was solved with the intro of MMA and other types of events where mixed fighting styles could be used. Its unfortunate that the same type of thing couldnt be used in racing. It would be nice to have an event where you could run a true unmanicured road course with rail tracks and everything. Timed loop type of stuff. Of course we all know this would never happen (as up tight as most of the world is).

I will have to add (and this is not a criticism) that I will most likely never be a good backroad driver. I just always have this fear of coming around a corner and seeing some jackass jogging/walking his dog at 2am or something. Also, I just couldnt stand to wrap my z into a tree learning a backroad. But thats my choice. I mean I would absolutely love to go for a backroad drive with Anh (when he gets a roll cage in the subaru HA!) This being said I do love a little spirited driving, like when we go to skyline drive or whatever. For me the line between backroad driving and going crazy is a double yellow one. Again, not a criticism its just why I wont be a good backroad driver..... Guess I gotta pay my money to have some fun....

KAT_Ayanami

iTrader: (1)

Naaah, don't take it like that so much. All this is only because Abui saw again the episode where the white RX-7 wins against the white EVO in Initial D again...

The day he watches again the Lion King, he will come here talking about the differences in the food chain and how to eat worms while singing Hakuna Matata!!

Any professional or experienced driver would be able to drive on any environment after a couple of sessions.

JohnnyHT

iTrader: (2)

wow.

The ignorance is astounding.

I forgot I was on a fanboi site. My apologies. I concede in the presence of great minds..."ya got me"

=/

KAT_Ayanami

iTrader: (1)

Don't take things so seriously on a forum.

But what do you expect when you call people ignorant?? Do you expect us to say: "YES, you are right!! I will abandon my "way of the rice" and I will grow up to be a fine person.

Specially when you didn't get half of the topic!

KAT_Ayanami

iTrader: (1)