View Poll Results: Reckless Driving by Speed? or not?
Yes. I would consider this a 35mph zone
4
28.57%
No. I would consider this an Acceleration and Merging are to a divided hwy.
10
71.43%
Voters: 14. You may not vote on this poll
Reckless driving by speed.....or not? (no 56K)
06-29-2010, 11:30 AM
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Reckless driving by speed.....or not? (no 56K)
This thread is both meant to inform the local drivers and get opinions on the interpretation of the posted signage Westbound on Rt.267/Dulles Greenway between Exit 10 (Fairfax County Parkway) and Exit 8 (Old Ox Rd) as I received a "Reckless Driving by speed" citation Section 46.2.862. (75mph in a 35mph zone)
The story and explanation.
Saturday afternoon I was on my way home from MD traveling Westbound on the Dulles Toll Road/Rt.267 going 61mph headed towards Leesburg. Approaching the main toll to the Greenway the signage reads "Speed Limit 55". Approx 2500ft from (before) the toll the next sign (flagged in orange) reads "Reduced Speed Ahead". 1000ft from that and approx 1400 ft from the toll booth the next sign (also flagged in Orange) reads "Speed Limit 35". I have now slowed to 40mph approaching the toll.
Immediately following (maybe 50ft) the "Speed Limit 35" sign there is a Yellow sign for "Smart Tag Lanes" saying "Max Safe Speed 10 M.P.H.". I continue to slow as the gates are down and I roll thru the toll at 15mph (in 2nd gear). As I leave the booth I shift from 2nd to 3rd and apply 65-75% throttle slightly over accelerating my target speed of 71-72mph and reaching 75mph in which I immediately lift off and skip to 5th gear to cruise. Never saw the officer until he had his lights on and pulled me over at the Exit 8 ramp as I was getting passed by 2 Jeeps in the left lane.
Upon exiting the toll booth ALL that can be seen are 2 large "Speed Limit 65mph" signs and a large area of unmarked pavement transitioning to merging hash marks at 1000ft to the "Speed Limit 65" signs at 1600ft (clearly visible within the toll booths, see pics below).
After being pulled over I get the typical walk around and questions about tint and front tag. I know these are illegal but I choose to have them anyway and accept ALL penalties and risks associated with that and am overly respectful and honest to the officers when those are questioned.
When the officer returns he gave me 3 citations including the BIG ONE of "Reckless Driving by Speed" at 75 mph in a 35 mph zone. I ask...how could that be? There is no posted 35mph sign on this side of the booth. I assumed this was an Acceleration and Merging area to a divided highway with a Speed limit of 65mph. I was told "NO" and that the 35mph sign carries thru the toll and all the way until the "Speed Limit 65" sign at 1600 ft from the toll. My argument was if that was the "intent" of the area at MINIMUM the "Reduced Speed Ahead" sign needs to read "Speed Zone Ahead" and/or a 35mph sign needs to be placed on the west side of the booth. He said..."I am not here to argue with you, but only enforce the law"...my reply "With all due respect officer I think you're making the wrong interpretation of the posted signage and laws to be enforced in that area." He walked away and I went home to call my lawyer.
Now...what would you interpret this area as given the posted signage and road markings (or lack there of).
Please keep the flaming to a minmum as I was actually out on a pretty relaxing cruise and at no point intentionally broke the law "reckelessly".
Although I titled the thread in such a way to get even the rowdiest of flame throwers in here.
Many of you know me and Im always willing to accept the punishment when caught doing something wrong but here Im not so sure I was wrong and I feel the punishment of a Class 1 Misdemeanor does not fit what happened.
Exiting Toll Plaza..
Please see there are NO other signs on this side of the toll other than a median sign and "Speed Limit 65"
Entering Plaza...if you can't see it the sign dead center in the lane says "Speed Limit 65"
Entering toll area
The story and explanation.
Saturday afternoon I was on my way home from MD traveling Westbound on the Dulles Toll Road/Rt.267 going 61mph headed towards Leesburg. Approaching the main toll to the Greenway the signage reads "Speed Limit 55". Approx 2500ft from (before) the toll the next sign (flagged in orange) reads "Reduced Speed Ahead". 1000ft from that and approx 1400 ft from the toll booth the next sign (also flagged in Orange) reads "Speed Limit 35". I have now slowed to 40mph approaching the toll.
Immediately following (maybe 50ft) the "Speed Limit 35" sign there is a Yellow sign for "Smart Tag Lanes" saying "Max Safe Speed 10 M.P.H.". I continue to slow as the gates are down and I roll thru the toll at 15mph (in 2nd gear). As I leave the booth I shift from 2nd to 3rd and apply 65-75% throttle slightly over accelerating my target speed of 71-72mph and reaching 75mph in which I immediately lift off and skip to 5th gear to cruise. Never saw the officer until he had his lights on and pulled me over at the Exit 8 ramp as I was getting passed by 2 Jeeps in the left lane.
Upon exiting the toll booth ALL that can be seen are 2 large "Speed Limit 65mph" signs and a large area of unmarked pavement transitioning to merging hash marks at 1000ft to the "Speed Limit 65" signs at 1600ft (clearly visible within the toll booths, see pics below).
After being pulled over I get the typical walk around and questions about tint and front tag. I know these are illegal but I choose to have them anyway and accept ALL penalties and risks associated with that and am overly respectful and honest to the officers when those are questioned.
When the officer returns he gave me 3 citations including the BIG ONE of "Reckless Driving by Speed" at 75 mph in a 35 mph zone. I ask...how could that be? There is no posted 35mph sign on this side of the booth. I assumed this was an Acceleration and Merging area to a divided highway with a Speed limit of 65mph. I was told "NO" and that the 35mph sign carries thru the toll and all the way until the "Speed Limit 65" sign at 1600 ft from the toll. My argument was if that was the "intent" of the area at MINIMUM the "Reduced Speed Ahead" sign needs to read "Speed Zone Ahead" and/or a 35mph sign needs to be placed on the west side of the booth. He said..."I am not here to argue with you, but only enforce the law"...my reply "With all due respect officer I think you're making the wrong interpretation of the posted signage and laws to be enforced in that area." He walked away and I went home to call my lawyer.
Now...what would you interpret this area as given the posted signage and road markings (or lack there of).
Please keep the flaming to a minmum as I was actually out on a pretty relaxing cruise and at no point intentionally broke the law "reckelessly".
Although I titled the thread in such a way to get even the rowdiest of flame throwers in here.
Many of you know me and Im always willing to accept the punishment when caught doing something wrong but here Im not so sure I was wrong and I feel the punishment of a Class 1 Misdemeanor does not fit what happened.
Exiting Toll Plaza..
Please see there are NO other signs on this side of the toll other than a median sign and "Speed Limit 65"
Entering Plaza...if you can't see it the sign dead center in the lane says "Speed Limit 65"
Entering toll area
Last edited by Driven1; 06-29-2010 at 11:56 AM.
06-29-2010, 11:40 AM
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I can see both sides of the story.
I think its worth going to court. I think there is enough evidence to either get the law clarified and your ticket thrown out based strictly on there NEEDING to be a clarification made.
I think its worth going to court. I think there is enough evidence to either get the law clarified and your ticket thrown out based strictly on there NEEDING to be a clarification made.
06-29-2010, 11:40 AM
#3
Sorry to see that happen to you. I occasionally see state troopers sitting at the toll booths there. I've seen only one person pulled over in that area. Probably the same cop. From I know they put the somewhat rookie cops close to the greenway. I hope your lawyer and get this thrown out or reduced.
06-29-2010, 11:49 AM
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That sucks. I would be mad as hell. I drive to Jersey and back frequently with at least 6/7 tolls on the way and I can tell you that I accelerate sometimes just because some drivers DO NOT KNOW HOW TO MERGE. I really do not know what speed I hit but I can tell you that most everyone accelerates as much as I do to go from 10+ lanes down to 3 or 4 which is dangerous in the first place at any speed. So maybe 35mph is the actual speed limit at that point. It's just like being clocked over the limit 10 feet before the "END WORK ZONE" orange sign and receiving a citation for speeding in a construction zone. It all depends on the cop.
06-29-2010, 11:51 AM
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Was the cop an Asian guy that was kind of an a-hole? If he is, then chances of it being my friend is HIGHLY likely since he's stationed on the Toll Road all the time. I can ask him to toss out the ticket since you're a ricer buddy, and ricers with turbos need to go WOT. He'll understand.
Though I see where you're coming from, but the road isn't 65mph until you pass that sign. You can get a ticket for going 1mph over the limit. Though I've seen plenty of people gun it to 70mph even before they hit that sign plenty of times, however in this case, the officer is correct. Sorry to see this happen.
Though I see where you're coming from, but the road isn't 65mph until you pass that sign. You can get a ticket for going 1mph over the limit. Though I've seen plenty of people gun it to 70mph even before they hit that sign plenty of times, however in this case, the officer is correct. Sorry to see this happen.
06-29-2010, 11:53 AM
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Another point of note......
Going Eastbound through the same Toll Area the FIRST "Speed Limit" sign that is posted is 1.5 miles away at Exit 10 at "Speed Limit 55". No signs except median signs are located in between. Am I to assume that the entire 1.5miles of divided hwy Eastbound are 35mph too?...because that direction is not enforced that way.
And keep in mind "Speed Zone Ahead" and "Reduced Speed Ahead" are 2 different things.
Going Eastbound through the same Toll Area the FIRST "Speed Limit" sign that is posted is 1.5 miles away at Exit 10 at "Speed Limit 55". No signs except median signs are located in between. Am I to assume that the entire 1.5miles of divided hwy Eastbound are 35mph too?...because that direction is not enforced that way.
And keep in mind "Speed Zone Ahead" and "Reduced Speed Ahead" are 2 different things.
Last edited by Driven1; 06-29-2010 at 12:00 PM.
06-29-2010, 11:58 AM
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06-29-2010, 12:14 PM
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Was the cop an Asian guy that was kind of an a-hole? If he is, then chances of it being my friend is HIGHLY likely since he's stationed on the Toll Road all the time. I can ask him to toss out the ticket since you're a ricer buddy, and ricers with turbos need to go WOT. He'll understand.
Though I see where you're coming from, but the road isn't 65mph until you pass that sign. You can get a ticket for going 1mph over the limit. Though I've seen plenty of people gun it to 70mph even before they hit that sign plenty of times, however in this case, the officer is correct. Sorry to see this happen.
Though I see where you're coming from, but the road isn't 65mph until you pass that sign. You can get a ticket for going 1mph over the limit. Though I've seen plenty of people gun it to 70mph even before they hit that sign plenty of times, however in this case, the officer is correct. Sorry to see this happen.
Im not looking for a freebie...I just genuinely don't understand and have a different interpretation of the signage...part of it is based off the fact that I drive that road literally 2+times a day and EVERYONE drives like it's an acceleration and merging area. The only difference this time vs normal...1)I was driving my Z...and 2)there were only approx. 5-6 cars in the booth area with me as opposed to the normal cluster F of 20+cars
Last edited by Driven1; 06-29-2010 at 12:19 PM.
06-29-2010, 12:51 PM
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sorry to see this, but I believe that the 65mph does not come into effect until after you have passed the sign.... so the 35mph would have still been in effect....
now that being said, I believe everyone uses that zone as an acceleration/merge zone, including myself...
now that being said, I believe everyone uses that zone as an acceleration/merge zone, including myself...
06-29-2010, 12:53 PM
#10
Another point of note......
Going Eastbound through the same Toll Area the FIRST "Speed Limit" sign that is posted is 1.5 miles away at Exit 10 at "Speed Limit 55". No signs except median signs are located in between. Am I to assume that the entire 1.5miles of divided hwy Eastbound are 35mph too?...because that direction is not enforced that way.
And keep in mind "Speed Zone Ahead" and "Reduced Speed Ahead" are 2 different things.
Going Eastbound through the same Toll Area the FIRST "Speed Limit" sign that is posted is 1.5 miles away at Exit 10 at "Speed Limit 55". No signs except median signs are located in between. Am I to assume that the entire 1.5miles of divided hwy Eastbound are 35mph too?...because that direction is not enforced that way.
And keep in mind "Speed Zone Ahead" and "Reduced Speed Ahead" are 2 different things.
06-29-2010, 01:17 PM
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Used to live in B'more and usually sitting right at the 895 exits [Harbor Tunnel] was a cop/trooper laying in the cut waiting for someone to burn. I usually just ASSUME there's always a cop nearby when passing through tolls and drive well under the limits. Sorry to hear this and GL in court man!
06-29-2010, 01:29 PM
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I also thought it was an acceleration zone to be honest. Mostly to prevent myself from getting slammed by the cars merging from the other lane. Good to know for next time. Now that I see your pics, I can see why they busted you. Those guys target modified cars all the time, esp the Z.
06-29-2010, 02:59 PM
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I'm pretty sure that if you see a 35mph sign, it stays 35mph until you pass another speed sign (the 65mph sign in this instance). It's always been like that. The fact that this is a toll booth may confuse some, but the law stays the same.
06-29-2010, 03:26 PM
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^^Just to play devils advocate.
To me a "Reduced Speed Ahead" on a highway is a temporary notation for a reduced speed for most commonly coming to a stop ahead, entering a populated area, or it's a slight reduction of speed (5-15mph) usually returning (if not ending) to the same speed as prior or greater. It's common practice to accelerate to the speed posted ahead(after stopping or entering a new area) as there is no notation for an ending point.
Now a "Speed Zone Ahead" denotes an entire section for highways (never seen them on any road other than 55+) or areas where the speed limit is 55mph or greater when reducing the speed down to 35mph or below as it is usually temporary (think small towns) going back to the original speed and/or greater and shows an ending point for an acceleration area back to 55mph or greater (a 20+mph difference is a pretty big difference in acceleration and deceleration distance for safety)
This is a toll where many people come to a dead stop and have to accelerate onto pavement (A divided highway straight ahead) with no lane markings (like a merge area)
To me a "Reduced Speed Ahead" on a highway is a temporary notation for a reduced speed for most commonly coming to a stop ahead, entering a populated area, or it's a slight reduction of speed (5-15mph) usually returning (if not ending) to the same speed as prior or greater. It's common practice to accelerate to the speed posted ahead(after stopping or entering a new area) as there is no notation for an ending point.
Now a "Speed Zone Ahead" denotes an entire section for highways (never seen them on any road other than 55+) or areas where the speed limit is 55mph or greater when reducing the speed down to 35mph or below as it is usually temporary (think small towns) going back to the original speed and/or greater and shows an ending point for an acceleration area back to 55mph or greater (a 20+mph difference is a pretty big difference in acceleration and deceleration distance for safety)
This is a toll where many people come to a dead stop and have to accelerate onto pavement (A divided highway straight ahead) with no lane markings (like a merge area)
Last edited by Driven1; 06-29-2010 at 03:53 PM.
06-29-2010, 03:28 PM
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§ 3362. Maximum speed limits.
(a) General rule.--Except when a special hazard exists that requires lower speed for compliance with section 3361 (relating to driving vehicle at safe speed), the limits specified in this section or established under this subchapter shall be maximum lawful speeds and no person shall drive a vehicle at a speed in excess of the following maximum limits:
(1) 35 miles per hour in any urban district.
(1.1) 65 miles per hour for all vehicles on freeways where the department has posted a 65-miles-per-hour speed limit
(1.2) 25 miles per hour in a residence district, if the highway:
1. is not a numbered traffic route; and
2. is functionally classified by the department as a local highway.
(2) 55 miles per hour in other locations.
(3) Any other maximum speed limit established under this subchapter.
(b) Posting of speed limit.--
1. No maximum speed limit established under subsection (a)(1), (1.2) or (3) shall be effective unless posted on fixed or variable official traffic-control devices erected in accordance with regulations adopted by the department which regulations shall require posting at the beginning and end of each speed zone and at intervals not greater than one-half mile.
2. No maximum speed limit established under subsection (a)(1.1) shall be effective unless posted on fixed or variable official traffic-control devices erected after each interchange on the portion of highway on which the speed limit is in effect and wherever else the department shall determine.
(a) General rule.--Except when a special hazard exists that requires lower speed for compliance with section 3361 (relating to driving vehicle at safe speed), the limits specified in this section or established under this subchapter shall be maximum lawful speeds and no person shall drive a vehicle at a speed in excess of the following maximum limits:
(1) 35 miles per hour in any urban district.
(1.1) 65 miles per hour for all vehicles on freeways where the department has posted a 65-miles-per-hour speed limit
(1.2) 25 miles per hour in a residence district, if the highway:
1. is not a numbered traffic route; and
2. is functionally classified by the department as a local highway.
(2) 55 miles per hour in other locations.
(3) Any other maximum speed limit established under this subchapter.
(b) Posting of speed limit.--
1. No maximum speed limit established under subsection (a)(1), (1.2) or (3) shall be effective unless posted on fixed or variable official traffic-control devices erected in accordance with regulations adopted by the department which regulations shall require posting at the beginning and end of each speed zone and at intervals not greater than one-half mile.
2. No maximum speed limit established under subsection (a)(1.1) shall be effective unless posted on fixed or variable official traffic-control devices erected after each interchange on the portion of highway on which the speed limit is in effect and wherever else the department shall determine.
Was it worth a reckless ticket? I don't think so, maybe a careless at MAX.
Get a lawyer, fight the ticket.
06-30-2010, 05:38 AM
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I have a few friends or people that I know that are police officers. Even family members. God bless them all. But I really am not a fan of those that put themselves above everone else because they are an officer of the law. I see it happen way too much. They won't even listen to what you have to say no matter what. I'm right and you are wrong. On occasion you come across a resonable cop. But I've had a lot of experiences where I actually felt they were challenging me. I know I'm getting off topic, but this type of story just irrates me. I do the same thing all them time. So I guess I"ve learned something new. I always wondered how someone could get pulled over after just coming through a toll booth. And now I know!
06-30-2010, 07:23 AM
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I take the greenway/toll road every morning/afternoon ($$).... if you're going 35mph, you WILL get run over by incoming traffic from the EZpass lanes flying at 40+ mph. I'd hate to see what would happen to a person if they actually went the posted "10 mph" safe speed....
I dont think it's fair, but I see state troopers pulling people over there all the time.
... i think they started cracking down after that accident last year when the dude accidentally got in the EZPass lane sans EZPass, then walked back to the booths to explain... tripped into on coming EZPass lane traffic... yeah. The audi that hit him was "speeding" according to the posted 10mph safe speed limit.
I dont think it's fair, but I see state troopers pulling people over there all the time.
... i think they started cracking down after that accident last year when the dude accidentally got in the EZPass lane sans EZPass, then walked back to the booths to explain... tripped into on coming EZPass lane traffic... yeah. The audi that hit him was "speeding" according to the posted 10mph safe speed limit.
