350Z Doomed for BS?
08-25-2003, 06:30 PM
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350Z Doomed for BS?
How can we set up our Z's to compete with S2000, Z4, & Boxster in BS?
The Z pushes pretty bad. I'm planning on getting some rubber up front- running Toyo T1-S's (245/40 F, 255/45 R) on Track rims. A front strut bar should also help (I'm thinking 350EVO). Adjustable shocks should also help (who has them available now?).
The problem is we can't get any negative camber on our front wheels! We can't lower the Z to get negative camber because the SCCA rules state that we can't modify the springs. We can't replace the upper control arm to get negative camber either.
We definitely don't need any more in the rear. That's maxed from the factory. I also like the toe-out that came from the factory except that my front tires are starting to make noise at low speed and under braking (feathering issue). Turn-in is very snappy though. I should get the alignment checked but I don't want toe-in.
I was also planning on a drop in K&N and maybe a Borla dual.
At this point I'm thinking we would be more competitive going into a modified catagory with coil-overs, upper control arms, F & R sway bars, and an Injen intake with the Borla. Then we can also run 17 x 9s with Hoosiers if we feel like carting them around.
Where do you think the Z can best represent?
The Z pushes pretty bad. I'm planning on getting some rubber up front- running Toyo T1-S's (245/40 F, 255/45 R) on Track rims. A front strut bar should also help (I'm thinking 350EVO). Adjustable shocks should also help (who has them available now?).
The problem is we can't get any negative camber on our front wheels! We can't lower the Z to get negative camber because the SCCA rules state that we can't modify the springs. We can't replace the upper control arm to get negative camber either.
We definitely don't need any more in the rear. That's maxed from the factory. I also like the toe-out that came from the factory except that my front tires are starting to make noise at low speed and under braking (feathering issue). Turn-in is very snappy though. I should get the alignment checked but I don't want toe-in.
I was also planning on a drop in K&N and maybe a Borla dual.
At this point I'm thinking we would be more competitive going into a modified catagory with coil-overs, upper control arms, F & R sway bars, and an Injen intake with the Borla. Then we can also run 17 x 9s with Hoosiers if we feel like carting them around.
Where do you think the Z can best represent?
08-25-2003, 06:53 PM
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you can fit 275s on the track rims all around, carter thompson has them on his 17s and kicks ***!
To get rid of the push, you could run 275s up front (or 265s, more likely, as thats whats out there now) and 245s in the rear. I read in the last SportZ magazine, I think, that someone is racing on the track with the wider tires up front.
I race BSP, and run 17x9s with 255/40 all around and it took out some of the push, and just got cusco sways, but cant try them until 9/27.
To get rid of the push, you could run 275s up front (or 265s, more likely, as thats whats out there now) and 245s in the rear. I read in the last SportZ magazine, I think, that someone is racing on the track with the wider tires up front.
I race BSP, and run 17x9s with 255/40 all around and it took out some of the push, and just got cusco sways, but cant try them until 9/27.
08-25-2003, 08:52 PM
#3
I honestly have yet to have my 350 push on me, except for when I over drive it! But I learned that from my camaro, go in too hot and you will just burn yourself and get horrible push.
Koni will have SA's available later this year, I plan on getting doubles early next spring. I still think the 350 can be competitive in BS, and I want to help carter prove it!
Koni will have SA's available later this year, I plan on getting doubles early next spring. I still think the 350 can be competitive in BS, and I want to help carter prove it!
08-25-2003, 09:45 PM
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I don't think its as competitive in BS as some of the other cars at the moment. Maybe next year after there are some shocks available. We won't know until then I guess unless Chris and Carter prove the Z a worthy BS car.
What happens next year if the Z fails to be competitive at nationals, which I hope is not the case? Do they bump it to another class or wait it out to see what happens with future mods?
I don't have enough autocross under my belt probably to post on this but thats just my feeling comparing the Z to the other cars in BS that I've driven lately. I think the thing that kills the Z most is the weight being 3300lbs compared to some that are hundreds of pounds lighter in BS, not to mention the S2000 has been out for 3+ years with available shocks and such for BS.
What happens next year if the Z fails to be competitive at nationals, which I hope is not the case? Do they bump it to another class or wait it out to see what happens with future mods?
I don't have enough autocross under my belt probably to post on this but thats just my feeling comparing the Z to the other cars in BS that I've driven lately. I think the thing that kills the Z most is the weight being 3300lbs compared to some that are hundreds of pounds lighter in BS, not to mention the S2000 has been out for 3+ years with available shocks and such for BS.
Last edited by zoasis; 08-25-2003 at 09:52 PM.
08-26-2003, 03:58 AM
#5
Well, at the Peru Pro, Carter got 3rd, right behind Sipe and Saini I beleive. He was .5 out I think? I don't think I am the caliber of driver carter is, and there doesn't appear to be many other drivers of his caliber out there in a 350, I think it'll just take a little time.
08-26-2003, 05:25 AM
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"How can we set up our Z's to compete with S2000, Z4, & Boxster in BS?"
Start by modifying the driver, make him/her lighter, then have them get more and more seat time. Improve their driving ability and they'll compete very nicely with all other cars in B stock. I've seen it myself, talented 350Z drivers getting faster times than modified S2000's.
Start by modifying the driver, make him/her lighter, then have them get more and more seat time. Improve their driving ability and they'll compete very nicely with all other cars in B stock. I've seen it myself, talented 350Z drivers getting faster times than modified S2000's.
08-26-2003, 10:20 AM
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Originally posted by Blue Liquid
Start by modifying the driver, make him/her lighter
Start by modifying the driver, make him/her lighter
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That is one of my mods for next year, koni's, lightweight BS wheels, and 60lbs off of me.
08-26-2003, 03:41 PM
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Originally posted by 2003z
you can fit 275s on the track rims all around, carter thompson has them on his 17s and kicks ***!
To get rid of the push, you could run 275s up front (or 265s, more likely, as thats whats out there now) and 245s in the rear. I read in the last SportZ magazine, I think, that someone is racing on the track with the wider tires up front.
you can fit 275s on the track rims all around, carter thompson has them on his 17s and kicks ***!
To get rid of the push, you could run 275s up front (or 265s, more likely, as thats whats out there now) and 245s in the rear. I read in the last SportZ magazine, I think, that someone is racing on the track with the wider tires up front.
08-26-2003, 03:52 PM
#10
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I just bought 265/35-18 Kumho V700 on 18x8" rims. They haven't arrived so I don't know how the mounting will go. We'll see. I've heard of S2000's with 265's on their rear wheels which are 7.5" wide, so I think I'll be OK.
-D'oh!
-D'oh!
08-26-2003, 03:52 PM
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Originally posted by christoc
Koni will have SA's available later this year, I plan on getting doubles early next spring. I still think the 350 can be competitive in BS, and I want to help carter prove it!
Koni will have SA's available later this year, I plan on getting doubles early next spring. I still think the 350 can be competitive in BS, and I want to help carter prove it!
I don't mind spending too much on shocks. Not only will they make us competitive but they seem like a must for getting rid of the infamous cupping issue. My Z sounds like a truck up front.
Does anybody know what the stock spring rates are?
08-26-2003, 04:01 PM
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Originally posted by Blue Liquid
"How can we set up our Z's to compete with S2000, Z4, & Boxster in BS?"
Start by modifying the driver, make him/her lighter, then have them get more and more seat time. Improve their driving ability and they'll compete very nicely with all other cars in B stock. I've seen it myself, talented 350Z drivers getting faster times than modified S2000's.
"How can we set up our Z's to compete with S2000, Z4, & Boxster in BS?"
Start by modifying the driver, make him/her lighter, then have them get more and more seat time. Improve their driving ability and they'll compete very nicely with all other cars in B stock. I've seen it myself, talented 350Z drivers getting faster times than modified S2000's.
08-26-2003, 04:20 PM
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There are all kinds of tricks to get the Z to understeer less. (I've been told by drivers that my Z has less understeer than a stock M3...so the term "understeer" is a relative one)
Putting larger tires on the front will certainly help. This forces the back tires to give up first, and so the rear will swing easier. You can also use a bigger sway bar in the rear...same effect as skinny tires on the back, but won't affect accel/decel.
With the 18" track wheels, I wouldn't dare think of adding negative camber to this car! The short sidewalls will cause the tires to ride on the inside edges...really bad for accel/decel. Indy and Stock cars can get away with it because they have a good 4" (at least) of sidewall.
There are a few tuner shops out there having luck with varying the tire size/aspect ratios between front and rear. They'll use a slightly wider tire on a smaller-width rim to force the tire into a rounded shape on the rears. Apparently it makes a difference on how smoothly the tire goes from griping to sliding.
zoasis is right: weight really hurts this car. The S2000 is lethal because it hardly weighs anything (well, that and a monocoque chassis doesn't hurt!). We have the disadvantage of a big V6 out front. It will take some creative thinking to figure out how to take some weight out up there: maybe running a motorcycle battery would help...
Racing was founded on making the most with the least. Tough rules are usually overcome by good ingenuity!
Putting larger tires on the front will certainly help. This forces the back tires to give up first, and so the rear will swing easier. You can also use a bigger sway bar in the rear...same effect as skinny tires on the back, but won't affect accel/decel.
With the 18" track wheels, I wouldn't dare think of adding negative camber to this car! The short sidewalls will cause the tires to ride on the inside edges...really bad for accel/decel. Indy and Stock cars can get away with it because they have a good 4" (at least) of sidewall.
There are a few tuner shops out there having luck with varying the tire size/aspect ratios between front and rear. They'll use a slightly wider tire on a smaller-width rim to force the tire into a rounded shape on the rears. Apparently it makes a difference on how smoothly the tire goes from griping to sliding.
zoasis is right: weight really hurts this car. The S2000 is lethal because it hardly weighs anything (well, that and a monocoque chassis doesn't hurt!). We have the disadvantage of a big V6 out front. It will take some creative thinking to figure out how to take some weight out up there: maybe running a motorcycle battery would help...
Racing was founded on making the most with the least. Tough rules are usually overcome by good ingenuity!
Last edited by archman350z; 08-26-2003 at 04:27 PM.
08-26-2003, 06:58 PM
#15
Originally posted by Track_350Z
So the doubles don't come out untill spring? Any estimate on cost? What mods do you have on your Z now? Is your's the project Z from solo2.org?
I don't mind spending too much on shocks. Not only will they make us competitive but they seem like a must for getting rid of the infamous cupping issue. My Z sounds like a truck up front.
Does anybody know what the stock spring rates are?
So the doubles don't come out untill spring? Any estimate on cost? What mods do you have on your Z now? Is your's the project Z from solo2.org?
I don't mind spending too much on shocks. Not only will they make us competitive but they seem like a must for getting rid of the infamous cupping issue. My Z sounds like a truck up front.
Does anybody know what the stock spring rates are?
as for shocks
From a phone conversation I had with a guy at Koni a few weeks back, they currently are working on Singles, they should be in production later this year. No word on price. To get doubles they will take the singles and build them custom, not sure on the price of those either. I heard from a supplier that the SA's should be available later this fall, possibly November.
I could send them my stock shocks and they would build doubles now, but it'd be 5-6 weeks, and $2400 I don't have!
I talked to a Penske rep, and can get a set for $2850, yet again another cash issue.
I will talk to the Koni guys at Nationals, I'll be there all week to bug them! Anyone going to Nationals stop by the Solo Performance trailer in vendors row, my car should be around there when i am around. -chris
08-27-2003, 02:15 PM
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Koni DAs are expensive...for an e36m3 they run about $2200, and that should be how much they would be for the Z as well.
If the Z does not do well this year at Nats, don't look for a re-class for next year. The car still has some development left before the SEB could be convinced to move it to FS. If it does not trophy for two years in a row, then I'd say that a letter campaign could help move it down...and the SEB might convinced since Z28 production is dead and the '05(??) Mustang will likely have similar hp to the 350 and an independent rear suspension too.
archman350z ...rear sways are illegal in stock class, so that option is out. A softer front sway is legal and would give more oversteer, but at a price.
350Z owners can be hopeful that the S2000 reign may fade as the '04+ S2ks are rumored to be significantly softer and not nearly as capable of a racer as the current cars.
If the Z does not do well this year at Nats, don't look for a re-class for next year. The car still has some development left before the SEB could be convinced to move it to FS. If it does not trophy for two years in a row, then I'd say that a letter campaign could help move it down...and the SEB might convinced since Z28 production is dead and the '05(??) Mustang will likely have similar hp to the 350 and an independent rear suspension too.
archman350z ...rear sways are illegal in stock class, so that option is out. A softer front sway is legal and would give more oversteer, but at a price.
350Z owners can be hopeful that the S2000 reign may fade as the '04+ S2ks are rumored to be significantly softer and not nearly as capable of a racer as the current cars.
08-27-2003, 04:19 PM
#17
Originally posted by negcamber
the '05(??) Mustang will likely have similar hp to the 350 and an independent rear suspension too.
the '05(??) Mustang will likely have similar hp to the 350 and an independent rear suspension too.
09-03-2003, 04:26 AM
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I added the Stillen front bar at 35% or so stiffer and some 245/35-18 A formula Hoosiers( up front) last race. The car cornered and slalomed better, but the rear was looser if I gassed on it to soon out of a corner, been running the 265/35-18 kumho on the back.
Will also be in the Nationals, one of 60+ cars in BS, if I can get finish in the top half I will be happy.
Here is a fun site, somehow I got 9 or so Votes to date, 2003 SCCA Solo II Nationals Picks
Will also be in the Nationals, one of 60+ cars in BS, if I can get finish in the top half I will be happy.
Here is a fun site, somehow I got 9 or so Votes to date, 2003 SCCA Solo II Nationals Picks
09-03-2003, 04:28 AM
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09-03-2003, 04:46 AM
#20
Originally posted by christoc
yes, the Project Z on SOLO2.ORG is my car, it's completely stock except for the muffler removal. It's currently in the body shop again, they can't seem to buff the damn thing without leaving swirls, so I keep taking it back. I run Kumho 245s all the way around, next year I am hoping to get my hands on some of the new Kumho 710s, should be an interesting tire! I am running on a spare set of enthusiast wheels, which weight a TON, so lighter wheels are necessary.
as for shocks
From a phone conversation I had with a guy at Koni a few weeks back, they currently are working on Singles, they should be in production later this year. No word on price. To get doubles they will take the singles and build them custom, not sure on the price of those either. I heard from a supplier that the SA's should be available later this fall, possibly November.
I could send them my stock shocks and they would build doubles now, but it'd be 5-6 weeks, and $2400 I don't have!
I talked to a Penske rep, and can get a set for $2850, yet again another cash issue.
I will talk to the Koni guys at Nationals, I'll be there all week to bug them! Anyone going to Nationals stop by the Solo Performance trailer in vendors row, my car should be around there when i am around. -chris
yes, the Project Z on SOLO2.ORG is my car, it's completely stock except for the muffler removal. It's currently in the body shop again, they can't seem to buff the damn thing without leaving swirls, so I keep taking it back. I run Kumho 245s all the way around, next year I am hoping to get my hands on some of the new Kumho 710s, should be an interesting tire! I am running on a spare set of enthusiast wheels, which weight a TON, so lighter wheels are necessary.
as for shocks
From a phone conversation I had with a guy at Koni a few weeks back, they currently are working on Singles, they should be in production later this year. No word on price. To get doubles they will take the singles and build them custom, not sure on the price of those either. I heard from a supplier that the SA's should be available later this fall, possibly November.
I could send them my stock shocks and they would build doubles now, but it'd be 5-6 weeks, and $2400 I don't have!
I talked to a Penske rep, and can get a set for $2850, yet again another cash issue.
I will talk to the Koni guys at Nationals, I'll be there all week to bug them! Anyone going to Nationals stop by the Solo Performance trailer in vendors row, my car should be around there when i am around. -chris
Good luck to you, Carter & all the 350Z drivers at the Solos! Keep us informed about the Koni Yellow Sport SA's. I think that's the way I am leaning vs. the NISMO S-Tune kit. I heard late fall from Gordon at KONI......