NA Project Part II with Forged Performace NA built motor
10-16-2007, 11:53 AM
#121
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Originally Posted by Sharif@Forged
Maybe I missed it, but how much timing are you running near redline?
Also, post up a dyno chart...we are somewhat blind without one.
I'd like a crack at tuning this thing, if you can bring it down to us. Would make for a fun roadtrip!!!
Also, post up a dyno chart...we are somewhat blind without one.
I'd like a crack at tuning this thing, if you can bring it down to us. Would make for a fun roadtrip!!!
Still awaiting the dyno data from UpRev. I got a print out...I can try to get a pic of it and post it later today. If I remember right timing was in the 70 degree range after 5000 rpm.
Originally Posted by Z1 Performance
compression has very little overall affect when on pump gas, and it only has a big affect on race gas when you start running big compression figures
I am only at 11.3:1 - jumping to 13 might have netted me another 10 hp...maybe
The cam specs are fine...again, mine are way milder from both a duration and lift and my car is making nearly 30 whp more, on a dyno dynamics. In fact the Tomei's have a really steep ramp rate, and as such, make broad power. The headers are definitely limiting things (not the right one for those cams), but even still the #'s should be higher I think.
Again, I don't think the VTC is your issue whatsoever, and in fact, I didn't even adjust it on my car (I have no way to do it as I didn't use the NISMO VTC pullies nor can UTEC adjust for them)
Your timing is insanely weak to be honest with you. You are running WAY less advance than you should be (I am running considerably more than you and mine is really, really conservative still)
Other companies give you the cam specs with the cams...it's on the cam card they provide (I got one with my Tomei, and I'd assume the set he is using got them too), so setup should be quite easy. I didn't even need to buy new lifters with mine (retained my stock valves though I went to NISMO springs)
Definitely a good start, and nothing to sneeze at, but I wouldn't start ditching parts just yet till you get it narrowed down
Start with the fuel/ignition maps first...worry about VTC angles last
You also should be revving it higher too (speak to Sharif about where he feels it can go to comfortably). I hit 300 whp at around 6700 ish rpm. At 7350 for example, I'm a bit over 300 whp and rev'd to 8200 as I recall on the dyno (and now have upped it a bit more)
What was torque curve/peak like?
As for the MAF it will absolutely help if you've got the heads to support it (which you do, even if they are unmodded). The throttle body, I honestly don't think will change things all that much, yet.
Also - this jsut dawned on me too. What spec 272 are you running (they offer a dew different ones). Got the part #?
I am only at 11.3:1 - jumping to 13 might have netted me another 10 hp...maybe
The cam specs are fine...again, mine are way milder from both a duration and lift and my car is making nearly 30 whp more, on a dyno dynamics. In fact the Tomei's have a really steep ramp rate, and as such, make broad power. The headers are definitely limiting things (not the right one for those cams), but even still the #'s should be higher I think.
Again, I don't think the VTC is your issue whatsoever, and in fact, I didn't even adjust it on my car (I have no way to do it as I didn't use the NISMO VTC pullies nor can UTEC adjust for them)
Your timing is insanely weak to be honest with you. You are running WAY less advance than you should be (I am running considerably more than you and mine is really, really conservative still)
Other companies give you the cam specs with the cams...it's on the cam card they provide (I got one with my Tomei, and I'd assume the set he is using got them too), so setup should be quite easy. I didn't even need to buy new lifters with mine (retained my stock valves though I went to NISMO springs)
Definitely a good start, and nothing to sneeze at, but I wouldn't start ditching parts just yet till you get it narrowed down
Start with the fuel/ignition maps first...worry about VTC angles last
You also should be revving it higher too (speak to Sharif about where he feels it can go to comfortably). I hit 300 whp at around 6700 ish rpm. At 7350 for example, I'm a bit over 300 whp and rev'd to 8200 as I recall on the dyno (and now have upped it a bit more)
What was torque curve/peak like?
As for the MAF it will absolutely help if you've got the heads to support it (which you do, even if they are unmodded). The throttle body, I honestly don't think will change things all that much, yet.
Also - this jsut dawned on me too. What spec 272 are you running (they offer a dew different ones). Got the part #?
I am going to try to find some long tubes to see what they will do and remove the exhaust after the headers to see if that will help improve anything.
Last edited by rednezz; 10-16-2007 at 11:56 AM.
10-16-2007, 01:55 PM
#122
Hey I know these are from ebay and I mentioned this in another thread but look at these.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/03-07...QQcmdZViewItem
Also Adam@Z1 said they will be doing a set with kooks for Kwames car. Talk with them.
Chris
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/03-07...QQcmdZViewItem
Also Adam@Z1 said they will be doing a set with kooks for Kwames car. Talk with them.
Chris
10-16-2007, 02:02 PM
#123
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Originally Posted by miamimax96
According to Z350lover's findings, going from stock compression to 11.5:1 netted 19 WHP. That's pretty significant in the n/a arena especially considering these gains from raised CR can be found everywhere in the powerband.
Originally Posted by miamimax96
Do you know this for a fact? Duration and lift specifications are only 1 part of the equation when it comes to cams. Too much exhaust cam duration can do more harm than good depending on where that duration is placed, exhaust port flow, and the intake cam specification.
Originally Posted by miamimax96
I guess I should've said they make the valve timing specs available to you BEFORE purchase so you can make a truly informed decision. What good is knowing specs AFTER the fact? You're stuck with 'em either way.
10-16-2007, 02:18 PM
#124
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Originally Posted by Z1 Performance
he did more than just change compression
He had nismo cams installed with nismo valve springs. They floated, and he replaced the valvetrain with Ferrea gear and added 11:5 compression pistons and Carrillo rods. So unless you're suggesting that the valvetrain or rods added power (
) , the 19 WHP gain was by virtue of the increased compression alone.https://my350z.com/forum/showpost.ph...&postcount=130
Yes, I know it for a fact - I'm not a newbie
I've got the Tomei #'s available to anyone who asks
10-16-2007, 02:24 PM
#125
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I'm not interested in going tit for tat with you, but yes, I am absolutely stating, not suggesting, that changing valves, by virtue of the machining work one generally does to the seats to accept the new valves, can change the power of the motor. Especially if the valves are larger diameter than stock. If you want to see what a compression change can do to a motor, you can run some very simple formulas in automath to get a very general idea. Going from 10.3 to 11.5 won't be more than a virtual pimple's difference.
I'm not missing the point...I got the #'s from Tomei by asking, not out of thin air
I'm not missing the point...I got the #'s from Tomei by asking, not out of thin air
10-16-2007, 02:34 PM
#126
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Originally Posted by Z1 Performance
I'm not interested in going tit for tat with you, but yes, I am absolutely stating, not suggesting, that changing valves, by virtue of the machining work one generally does to the seats to accept the new valves, can change the power of the motor. Especially if the valves are larger diameter than stock. If you want to see what a compression change can do to a motor, you can run some very simple formulas in automath to get a very general idea. Going from 10.3 to 11.5 won't be more than a virtual pimple's difference.
I'm not missing the point...I got the #'s from Tomei by asking, not out of thin air
But while we're on the subject, do you have specs for the 11.3/11.0mm 272's? I'd like to take a look.
10-16-2007, 02:58 PM
#128
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ok so on a stock valve size...yes it still makes power
How? 1. a proper valve job (factory one is ok as far as production engines go, but leaves ALOT on the table.
2. Valvesprings - it's no mystery when building a motor than the more spring pressure you have, the more power you can mate via elimination of any potential float. The reason Ritchie had a problem, IMHO, is his first setup was using a spring insufficient for his cam. If these two things are not matched to work with one another, you'lll end up with exactly what he did...an expensive bill
As for the Tomei #'s, he's using a cam that will work great on a built NA motor, but the cam wants to rev...it's not going to want to be in the 5k-6k range, it wants to be in the 6k and up range. With respect to the #'s, I got them simply by asking Tomei Japan. There is no one else worth asking, as Tomei does not have a US office. My machinist now has all those figures, and I can call him tomorrow. Or perhaps rednezz can scan and post the cam card
How? 1. a proper valve job (factory one is ok as far as production engines go, but leaves ALOT on the table.
2. Valvesprings - it's no mystery when building a motor than the more spring pressure you have, the more power you can mate via elimination of any potential float. The reason Ritchie had a problem, IMHO, is his first setup was using a spring insufficient for his cam. If these two things are not matched to work with one another, you'lll end up with exactly what he did...an expensive bill
As for the Tomei #'s, he's using a cam that will work great on a built NA motor, but the cam wants to rev...it's not going to want to be in the 5k-6k range, it wants to be in the 6k and up range. With respect to the #'s, I got them simply by asking Tomei Japan. There is no one else worth asking, as Tomei does not have a US office. My machinist now has all those figures, and I can call him tomorrow. Or perhaps rednezz can scan and post the cam card
10-16-2007, 03:10 PM
#129
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Originally Posted by Z1 Performance
As for the Tomei #'s, he's using a cam that will work great on a built NA motor, but the cam wants to rev...it's not going to want to be in the 5k-6k range, it wants to be in the 6k and up range.
With that said, according to the engine dyno on tomei's site, these 272/272 have more potential than is being shown here. I'm pretty sure with extra tweaking there's more power to be gained up top.
With respect to the #'s, I got them simply by asking Tomei Japan. There is no one else worth asking, as Tomei does not have a US office. My machinist now has all those figures, and I can call him tomorrow. Or perhaps rednezz can scan and post the cam card
Last edited by nismology1; 10-16-2007 at 05:00 PM.
10-17-2007, 11:16 PM
#132
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Well I found out a couple of reasons why my car probably didn't make more power. I removed the intake manifold and I found one of the stand off's for the MD spacer missing. I looked into the heads and there it was all toasting looking. I was lucky it was to big to fall into the chamber and ruin yet another motor. Also found a vacuum leak and a bad gasket on one of the VTC solenoids. However, I still have a hesitation problem when I go full throttle even after the tune. Not sure what is causing it. I need redyno and maybe retune now that I found and fixed two problems.
10-18-2007, 06:02 AM
#133
Since you mentioned VTC solenoids, another thing to check, is to log your cam angles with the Cipher, and make sure that BOTH banks are phasing correctly. I had a car in here once, that made crap for power, and we found that one bank wasnt phasing at all.
Last edited by Sharif@Forged; 10-18-2007 at 06:14 AM.
10-18-2007, 10:16 AM
#134
Originally Posted by rednezz
Well I found out a couple of reasons why my car probably didn't make more power. I removed the intake manifold and I found one of the stand off's for the MD spacer missing. I looked into the heads and there it was all toasting looking. I was lucky it was to big to fall into the chamber and ruin yet another motor. Also found a vacuum leak and a bad gasket on one of the VTC solenoids. However, I still have a hesitation problem when I go full throttle even after the tune. Not sure what is causing it. I need redyno and maybe retune now that I found and fixed two problems.
10-19-2007, 10:38 AM
#136
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Man I was deffinitely expecting you to break 300 on this one, especially on a DJ. I agree with Sharif, for what you did those number should be coming from a DD if anywhere
10-19-2007, 11:15 AM
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Originally Posted by DanielW
Man I was deffinitely expecting you to break 300 on this one, especially on a DJ. I agree with Sharif, for what you did those number should be coming from a DD if anywhere
03-25-2008, 09:00 PM
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Well I have finally sorted out all the bugs. The car is definitely stronger than my last dyno of 294. Strong enough to pull away from my friends EVO that runs 110+ mph in the quarter and edge out a C6 vette. The car has tremendous initital jump when I first go 100% throttle at any speed. The weirdest part is once the car hits 80+ mph the car really starts to pull really hard...doesn't matter if its 3rd, 4th, 5th or 6th gear. Seems like there is a ram air effect going on at the speed and higher. The engine just comes to life.