__jb

iTrader: (3)

It's been quite a while since I updated my engine build thread, so this is probably a good time to do it. I've tried to build on the performance from the initial build and hit a few road blocks along the way. I still don't have all the answers yet, but some of you NA friends might be interested in my progress.

Up until this point in this thread, I had only dyno'd my car once on Jeremy's dyno at the Performance factory. You can find that dyno chart earlier in my thread, or click here. That dyno chart did not show the RPM or torque, so there were still some unanswered questions.

Shortly after my new engine was installed at the Performance Factory, Jeremy decided to move to Maryland. I needed to find a new Tuner. I had talked to Bobby at S&R Performance in Tampa about tuning with Osiris and he was interested. Indeed, S&R became an Osiris Pro Tuner shop.

I had been using a Haltech since Jeremy originally tuned my original engine a few months before building the new engine. I had some problems trying to get my car to run smoothly with the Haltech on my original and newly built engine. I also had a few issues with the Haltech fighting with the ECU's control of my RevUp engine. I liked the fact that Osiris could manage all the ECU settings, so I decided to eliminate the Haltech. I have used Cipher and Osiris for quite a while, so, I decided to switch from the Haltech in MAP mode to an Osiris tune using the MAF sensor.

My reasoning was that Osiris could control anything the Haltech could control on a normally aspirated engine, and I would hopefully be able to improve driveability. I wanted to get rid of the jerkiness driving down the road and improve cold start cranking/starting.

I planned to do things in stages so I wouldn't lose track of where I was. S&R Performance has a DynoMite Dyno that I was totally unfamiliar with, so I decided to make one or two runs with my car and the Haltech. I wanted a few base runs with the Haltech to make sure I was comparing everything accurately. After those runs, I would yank the Haltech out and let Brian proceed with the tuning using Osiris.

Since my original dyno at the Performance Factory was 312 whp, I was expecting between 300 and 320 horsepower on the DynoMite Dyno. Two runs on the new dyno produced runs with 287 whp. I was a bit surprised that it was that low, but decided to proceed to the Osiris tuning stage.

Tuning with Osiris produced 283 whp, but it fixed a rather large dip in torque on the bottom end. I don't know if that dip in torque was always there, but it seemed to improve low speed torque. Here's the dyno chart from the first day of tuning with Osiris. You can see where the torque lines from the original tune (dotted lines) were smoothed out.



You can see that there is not a lot of difference between the two tunes, except that the dip at the beginning of the run has been eliminated.

Since the horsepower difference was a bit larger than I was expecting, I asked Jeremy how he dyno'd my car originally. He said that he noticed that my car still drew a vacuum at higher RPM and decided to take the air box off. He said he also replaced my intake tube with a larger tube he had at the shop. He didn't seem to remember which configuration had made the most power. I always thought the 312 whp run was made with the full air box on, but maybe it wasn't. Sorry if I misled anyone by stating that.

Driveability on the road improved a great deal with the Osiris tune. My car no longer jerked while driving along at 80 mph. My cold start issues with the Haltech were gone, but now my car has hot start issues. One the car has been started and gets warmed up, you have to press the accelerator nearly to the floor to start the car. It's not terrible, but it makes letting someone else drive my car difficult.

Once I looked over the dyno charts from the S&R dyno runs, it seemed like the engine wasn't making as much high RPM power as I was expecting. While I had never heard of a DynoMite Dyno before, it was very accurate and had good repeatability when comparing multiple runs.

I decided to continue along with my plans to make the intake side of the engine larger. I also started thinking more and more about getting a Cosworth Plenum. From what I had read, the Cosworth plenum seemed like it would help upper RPM horsepower more than the Crawford plenum I was using at the time. I also decided to install one of Adam's larger MAF tubes and a Pop Charger to increase air flow. This would be my second stage of improvements.

Brian (S&R Tuner) suggested I not install the larger MAF tube at home before driving over for the new tune, so I left it off. I did install the new Cosworth Plenum and the Pop Charger at home before I drove over.

Around this time I also discovered that I was getting DTC codes for low voltage on the knock sensor. I thought this might have been causing my low power issues, but after replacing it and testing again, I'm not sure if it made any difference.

Drove over to S&R and installed the larger MAF tube. One thing I did not do was enlarge the front of the Pop Charger to match the larger MAF tube. I thought about it, but was afraid it would ruin it if the bigger tube didn't work and I needed to change back to the original setup.

Tuning the car at S&R went well, except that it was near the end of May and it was a hundred degrees in the back of their shop where the dyno was. The new tune went well with my car picking up a bit of horsepower in the hotter weather and quite a bit of improvement in torque. Here is that dyno chart.



Oddly enough, installing the Cosworth plenum and larger MAF tube moved peak horsepower down 700 rpm. That's something I was not expecting. The Cosworth, larger MAF tube, and tune did make my car perform better. It seems like I am still a long way from the original dyno of 312 whp though.

Driveability also suffered another hit. The hot starting problem was not able to be resolved and now my car stalls if I have to stop within the first few minutes of driving. That really sucks. Usually I can push in the clutch and jump start the car before it comes to a complete stop, but that's not too safe.

The Florida G Club and the 350Z Club of Tampa had a dyno day at Proven Power in Tampa this weekend. They are a fairly new shop, but they have a new DynoJet dyno. The heat index was 112 degrees Saturday, so none of our cars made much power. I'll just include this dyno for completeness... and because someone will always say... what about a DynoJet.



So, what's next? I have concerns that my cams might be causing some of the problem. They might just be too big, or they might not be tuned correctly. I talked to Jim Wolf a few days ago and he offered to analyse a Cipher log of my cams. I plan to take him up on that.

I had plans to go wild with a 90mm throttle assemble and fabricated intake tube to get more air through the intake side of the engine. I'd say that plan is on hold until I can get things a bit more under control.

I'd also like to get the hot start and stalling issues resolved. I'm pretty sure it's just tuning since it didn't do it with the Haltech. Maybe my injectors are too big? We originally planned to go with 400's but ended up with 500's somehow. I dunno...

Thanks to everyone that's read this far... I guess I should have given an update sooner. I wanted to make sure I had all the facts this time... I don't have all the answers, but I have a better idea about what's going on. If any of you have thoughts, ideas, questions, or can think of something that I missed, feel free to post them... I'm always up for anything that will help the NA community.


-jb

Chef-J

iTrader: (58)

Great to hear this story, my car is on the way to uprev now. Jared will look over my car.
Have you contact jared@uprev about hot/cold issue? That should be something with tune i'm assuming. I have really no ideal how log on osiris and how that control and works.

try clean TB as well, and play with fuel on idle. I don't know if that will help.

Z1 Performance

iTrader: (564)

Don't get hung up on the #'s JB, they are really only relative unto themselves. Unless you have 2 area dynos that base their calibrations off one another, it's going to just drive you nuts and not offer any benefit. More importantly than the # is the driveability experience. I'd spend the time researching who in the area can properly tune the Haltech for you, and whatever dyno they happen to use, is what you should use. You've been doing this a long time to not fall into the typical interweb trap of chasing a # for the sake of the #.

While 500's are HUGE for your setup, they should work fine if they get the latency #'s correct

For the stalling issue, did you do the vaccuum trick JWT suggests? While I don't personally have this done on my own car (I just bumped the idle up and it works great), it should work perfectly for you

http://www.jimwolftechnology.com/wol...BILITY_FIX.PDF

__jb

iTrader: (3)

After the first tune, Jared supplied a map to show how to correct the problem. My Tuner has a lot of experience tuning other cars and chose a different method. Unfortunately, those methods did not solve either of my problems.

You will be in good hands with Jared.

__jb

iTrader: (3)

I understand about dyno numbers. I was just surprised at the delta. Looking back at it, I think the big difference is the temperature change between November and June in Florida.

I used to have a device similar to what you suggested on my car when I had the Haltech. It was more of a "controlled vacuum leak" and I just couldn't live with it. I also have a hole in my throttle body to help with the idle, so maybe there are too many different philosophies evolved. Once I get a few of these issues solved, I have a new throttle body to try. No sense installing it until driveability with the standard one is improved.

The idle is actually fine in my G, although I would like it a bit lower once these problems are resolved. The problem is that it is very difficult to start my G once it has been started and the engine has warmed up a bit. It is also difficult to keep running after it first starts and the engine is cold. When I pull up to a traffic light and push in the clutch, the engine stalls. I can usually put it in a lower gear and jump start it, but I'm afraid some on is going to rear end me. I'm pretty sure both these problems can be resolved through Osiris.

Once I get my car started and once it is warmed up enough to quit stalling, it runs the best it has in a long time.

The drive-by-wire controls more things in a RevUp that it does in an ordinary DE, so I think the decision to switch from the Haltech to Osiris was a good one for me... for an NA RevUp VQ.

Thanks for the feedback, Adam...


-jb

rocks

iTrader: (1)

My car idles odd sometimes with S7 cams. I raised the idle as far as I could with Osiris and it went away. It will idle fine then the idle will just drop and the ecu tries to compensate for it by raising the idle too around 1200 rpms and bringing it back down. Also uploading the DBW file into your map will help. If you haven't tried that.

Ivory

iTrader: (3)

interesting you mentioned about cold start with haltech, i thought it was just because my ITBs...im sure that has something to do with it, but it sounds like the sipher and osiris is doing the job for you? Would it be compatible without the MAF and drive by cable?

Nexx

iTrader: (41)

if you ever want to get rid of the cosworth let me know. honestly its just a nice show piece in a N/A application.

copec

I really like your G!

What did the tuner to to fix the dip? Did he mess with cam angles?

__jb

iTrader: (3)

Not sure exactly what you mean here.

Do you mean selecting the option that Jared created to optimize the electronic throttle control?

__jb

iTrader: (3)

My car isn't perfect yet, but I'm still working on it.

If you remove the stock MAF sensor, the OEM ECU, and therefore Osiris, has no way to measure the amount of air coming in to the engine.

I think most people that remove the MAF sensor switch to manifold absolute pressure (MAP) mode to measure the incoming air. That's something the OEM ECU is not designed to measure. Perhaps you could add an external manifold pressure device to measure the manifold pressure, but the OEM ECU would not be able to control it.

To be honest, you're getting beyond my level of understanding for OEM ECU EMS management. I can't remember what you're using for an airbox, or if you have one. As I remember, you have a Haltech... I'd give Hal at Injected a call. He is the wizard on setting up that kind of stuff.

__jb

iTrader: (3)

Thanks, I'll keep you in mind.

If you look at the two dyno graphs in my post above, the main difference is the Cosworth plenum. The actual difference is the Cosworth Plenum, a Z1 large MAF tube, and a JWT Pop Charger.

The second graph with the Cosworth, larger MAF tube, and Pop Charger made about 12 more horsepower and about 25 more foot pounds of torque in much hotter weather. That's a pretty good gain.

For some reason, the Cosworth setup lowered the peak horsepower RPM range by about 700 RPM. That's something I was not expecting.

When I read about the Cosworth plenum on the Cosworth web site, it stated that the plenum was initially designed for high RPM NA engines. Exactly what I am trying to build. Later revisions to their web site added that the plenum was also designed for FI applications and some other stuff.

I originally planned on dynoing the plenum, then adding the larger MAF tube and then adding the Pop Charger. That would have taken too long and been too expensive, so I didn't do it.

__jb

iTrader: (3)

Thanks!

I believe he fixed it with timing and air/fuel adjustments.

I currently have pretty conservative cam timing, but I'm working on it. It's the next thing I plan to concentrate on. Once we get the optimum timing for these cams, it should never have to be changed again.

Swimminggerman

Lovely, absolutly stunning. People like you continue to inspire or is it persuede me to do my NA HR build. Awesome work. More videos please.

__jb

iTrader: (3)

Thanks... NA builds rock in my opinion... It looks like their popularity is starting to grow, too... an HR build should really pump up the volume...

What kind of videos do you want? I've posted videos of it idling and on the dyno...

I could make a drive-by video like Adam made in his 350z... make a couple of passes... That would be cool... unfortunately there aren't too many places around here to do that kind of stuff... I use the Interstate on-ramps for, uh testing purposes... hard to get pictures there...


-jb

__jb

iTrader: (3)

A lot of people PM me to ask about gas mileage with my built engine, cams, and 4.08 rear end gears. I haven't really kept track much until this weekend.

This weekend I drove from St. Petersburg to Gainesville and back for a Florida G Club Meet. The trip was 297.9 miles on my odometer and I used 14.573 gallons of gasoline.

20.4419 miles per gallon.

Those were mostly highway miles at 80 miles an hour or so. Not bad... Better than I was expecting actually...


-jb

gabe3d

iTrader: (8)

That mileage is not too bad actually, only slightly worst then stock. Did you ever fix your stalling issue? Also how do you like your 4.08 gears?

03threefiftyz

iTrader: (25)

I have been contemplating 4.08's, but on my tires and rev limit I will be in 5th at the finish in the 1/4 or have to sit on the rev limit for 75-100 feet or so. 20-21mpg isn't too bad. Most people seem to think that the gears only cost about 1-2mpg loss as opposed to stock on the highway.

+1 on getting a few more "action" vids of you car jb.

__jb

iTrader: (3)

No. I'm beginning to wonder if the stalling could be caused by the pop charger and not the tune. I'm thinking about putting the stock airbox back on and seeing what it would do.

I don't see how a pop charger could induce stalling, but I've read where people say that it does.


-jb

rednezz

iTrader: (1)

_jb comparing my dyno to your....in my opinion your running too lean after 6500....that maybe why you peak lower with the cosworth plenum.