mcarther101

iTrader: (8)

Confirmed blown head-gasket, quarts of oil leaking out exhaust (deja vu somehow). I am planning on building the top end of the motor for NA, since it's less expensive (all-be-it more expensive dollar per horsepower) than a built block turbo setup.

Goals: 290+whp, 7100RPM limit (or maybe higher depending on power I make/how comfortable I feel), durability/longevity/safety > that extra few horsepower

Currently: bolt-on/stock. JWT pop-charger, 5/16" JWT plenum spacer, Bassani 2 1/4-2 1/2" catback exhaust.

Purchased: UpRev Osiris basic, HR head gasket, HR head bolts, JWT C8 intake/exhaust cams, JWT spring/shim kit, Z1 60mm test pipes, DC headers, Juke head bolts, all new gaskets

Machine work: modified coolant passage to accommodate HR head gasket, resurfaced heads, cleaned heads & reassembled with new valve seals/JWT spring & shim kit

Edit: Now currently the same mods, but with ARP standard main studs/head studs, built & blueprinted short block by SOHO motorsports with ACL bearings, Wiseco 11:1 pistons, and Eagle rods. Head gasket is the 2nd gen version due to a mix-up in shipping, and me just wanting to get it together. Getting comp'd the pathfinder coolant mod though Turned out I had failed piston rings.

First start:

mcarther101

iTrader: (8)

1. So calling around, JWT recommends against mixing springs with cams, and suggests their springs due to a variety of technical reasons, spring harmonics, etc stuff that's over my head mostly.

2. GTM advises against the dual valve springs too. I know dual valve springs are more targeted towards high RPM builds, but I am having a hard time understanding if it's not viable, not recommended, or just not needed with my current top-end-only build plans.

3. Talked with Kyle @ Import Parts Pro, he recommended S1 cams, and has used them with Ferrea Dual Valve Springs so this is good news for me.

4. Called Hal @ Dynosty, he recommends against dual valve springs stating longevity.

5. Called Ferrea, spoke with John asking about the dual valve springs, and if I should be worried about longevity/durability versus a single valve spring. He assured me it shouldn't be an issue. Knowledgeable guy, on par with the best tuners/manufacturers I talked with today.

Comparatively he looked up for me Brian Crower single spring w/ titanium retainer:
Spring Pressure: BC1220 Seat: 1.425" @ 80 lbs / Open: 0.990" @ 192 lbs / Coil Bind: 0.900" (no machine work required)

Ferrea Dual Springs S10103:
Outside Diameter: 20.8mm / 28.0mm
Inside Diameter: 15.88mm / 20.8mm
Seat Pressure: 80 lbs @ 34mm
Open Pressure: 200 lbs @ 24mm
Rate Inch: 305 lbs
Coil Bind: 19mm
Max Net Lift: 13mm

JWT single springs: 43lb@on seat & 136lb@12.5MM lift

Nismo single springs: High lift (valve: 9.2→11.0mm), load (at installation: 196→245N; at valve opening: 433→568N) ...newtons to pounds Nismo & JWT seem more similar than say the Brian Crower or Ferrea springs.

Now, John @ Ferrea wasn't trying to sell me anything, I called saying I already have the dual valve springs and comp series that I got for a good price, and was getting mixed info about their viability on a street car. Seeing the similarity between the Brian Crower single springs, and the Ferrea dual springs, I am inclined to believe that just because a spring design is dual vs single doesn't mean it is necessarily overly aggressive; but then again, I don't know for sure - just speculating from a consumer perspective.

For a consumer, this is a lot of information to take in all at once. I really don't want to start a feud between any of these shops/manufacturers/tuners, just trying to wade through this springs/cams information as a relatively uninformed buyer who's looking for the most cost effective build.

Anyone out there running Ferrea 1mm oversized valves #F1563P, F1565P, titanium retainers #E11079, dual valve springs #S10103, Seals #VS1012, Locks #K10069, and Locators #SL1065 with cams on a NA setup around 7000RPM? If so what cams, and what gains? How long have you been running it? Any problems?

Where are all these cams/tuner experts when you need them on here? Did they all move on to the 370z or something? lol

Ended up buying Tomei 272's for $880 new since I don't want to wait a week for JWT, and I'm sure they will perform well too.

Edit: Ended up that the Tomei 272's I was sold weren't actually in stock, and are made to order. Ended up ordering JWT C8's and going with their corresponding spring/shim kit.

1cockyZ

iTrader: (46)

Stock HR springs and revup retainers will work just fine for 7k. If you are pulling the motor do rod bolts and revup oil pump to sure up the low end. If you want cost effective read through my build thread. The heads flow great and do not need porting, there are so many things that need improvement first. SG did a cam comparo for modified mag. Sounds like you are just lazy and can't search or read/comprehend. It's not that no one reads these threads it's just no one wants to help someone who can't do their homework.

mcarther101

iTrader: (8)

Actually, I read that comparison. While it was interesting, it didn't offer any technical insight into the question I had here. I was initially asking about stronger dual valve springs being too much for mild cams at lower RPMs; HR springs and revup retainers will work fine for 7k, but that's not what I wanted to know. That article was about cams, not valve springs. I wanted to know if the 80lb/200lb valve spring I ordered would have any serious problems on 264 to 272 cams. I'm not too worried about it now, but could still be wrong - time will tell.

Also, I read that the heads flow great, but I also saw a flow comparison showing an easy 10-15% more airflow to be had at medium-high lift from porting the DE heads, puts them above the HR heads even. So why not, if I'm just doing the top end?

I've been searching, reading, and learning about this sudden project since I blew my head gasket not too long ago so of course I'm not an expert. That's why I've been calling people all day trying to get different opinions, and reading about this stuff. I just want to get the car up and running with a bit more power with minimal turnaround time. It's still alien to me, but at least the professionals I talked to were - professional (varying in professional opinions nonetheless).

Yes, I am lazy, and can't search, read or comprehend. SMH.

kacz07

iTrader: (15)

I run JWT C8R cams w +1mm Ferrea valvetrain and rev to 8k.

mcarther101

iTrader: (8)

Cool, good to hear, this is what I really wanted to know. Obviously you built the bottom end to rev to 8k, but if you haven't had problems with your valvetrain w/ those cams, I'm not worried about springs/cams issues. How long you been running that setup?

kacz07

iTrader: (15)

Have about 10k on it with plenty of heat cycles. Going through some growing pains, so should have a new intake growl on it soon.

mw9

iTrader: (51)

sub'd

mcarther101

iTrader: (8)

Cool, I've been reading through your NA build, but don't have it memorized or anything. Trying to do this all on the fly, not months of build planning involved, more like 1 week of planning. It's hard to tell what all will work, and wont work it seems with this NA stuff early on; if you had to do some things over, what would you have gone with originally?

Took the Z to a local mechanic's house today, here's how she sits today:


Heads pulled


Gunky nasty pistons and 116k miles of engine muck, some more recent from blown head gasket probably...


Timing belt tensioner plastic thingy was apparently broken??? Unless a stray screwdriver hit it whatever, will replace.

HR headgaskets vs old DE headgaskets:





^I was looking for what everyone is talking about in the difference that needs to be cut, and it looks like the HR gasket has a solid piece of metal where the DE gasket has a hole for coolant flow? How exact should that cut be? Anything else to modify on the gasket/cyllinder heads/whatever?

Also, I did compare the HR head bolts to the DE, and there is ever so slightly a thread or so more length. This is not a problem? No modifications necessary? I know people run HR headbolts, and everyone told me to buy these instead.

Been reading this old thread tonight on the PPE LTH's... out of my budget, but considering I'm replacing the cat's with motordyne art pipe V1's... should I install shorty headers, or just keep the OEM headers. I'm really not sure if me spending $400 on headers is going to gain 10hp, but would regret if it cost me 10hp if I didn't after $2,800 in head work/valvetrain/cams lol.
https://my350z.com/forum/intake-exha...350z-hr-5.html

What you think, most searches I see are in reference to headers on bolt-ons w/o cams, and them not being worth it. Is it a total chump move to not put headers on at this point? Is it going to cost me 10 or 15hp if I keep the factory headers? (Obviously no one can no for sure, but just want opinions).

2004Black350z

iTrader: (37)

With proper head flow cams it be dumb not to get aggressive headers like PPE

1cockyZ

iTrader: (46)

http://www.jimwolftechnology.com/wol...HEAD_BOLTS.pdf

That is what needs to be cut. Also really good pictures in my build thread of the machine work. Good luck doing it without getting metal everywhere with the block in the car. The Z1 shortie headers with 1.75" primaries will accomplish what you want for less than PPE's. Hell I made 307whp with DC's, which I have for sale.

mcarther101

iTrader: (8)

Thanks for that. Yeah, I'm sure it will be messy... off the top of my head, and I know this might just sound stupid but do you think play dough carefuly placed sort of like a gasket to prevent metal shavings from going all into the engine might work? lol I'm thinking it might block metal shavings from most the openings and absorb it like little pieces of shrapnel haha. For the part near where the cut needs to be made, I could cut a sponge and wedge it down low with a coat hanger through it, then when I pull out the sponge, it should catch all the aluminum shavings I'm thinking.

Fixxxercask

iTrader: (21)

Sub'd.

graffkid732

iTrader: (44)

Awesome build/rebuild. Good luck with it.

str8dum1

iTrader: (11)

you def dont need double valve springs on a NA application. all they will do is cause increased wear.

I'm running supertechs strongest double valve springs but am also boosting up to 30++psi, so i need to make sure the valves dont get pushed open. Even on a normal FI application, single springs are adequate

mcarther101

iTrader: (8)

Yeah, I think these springs are overkill for what I wanted to rev to. These double springs are ~ the same strength as Brian Crower single springs for the VQ35DE though. I just got the complete Ferrea set UPS today, and am thinking about letting it go for $1100 shipped because unfortunately Z1 Motorsports dropped the ball on me. Not sure who it is, not Chuck, but the other guy there who took my order and told me Tomei cams were in stock, and I should have them early next week (i.e. earlier this week). I called when I noticed the email invoice for my phone order stated "G1 Tomei 272 10.8mm cams" and saw that there is no such thing on Tomei's website. There is a "G1 Tomei 272 10.5mm" and a "G2 Tomei 272 10.8mm"... so I was confused if I was getting the right application (non-revup G1). Apparently, it wasn't the right application, but it also hadn't shipped out so... that's good I guess, but the cams are made to order, and whoever I talked to at Z1 initially either didn't know this, didn't check, or just wanted to sell me the cams, and told me they were in stock when they weren't. Chuck said he would see what he could do, and would call me back today about other cams. He didn't call me back, so I'll probably be calling them tomorrow to cancel my order.

Disappointing because a few days earlier I had ordered the HR head gasket & HR head bolts from them, and they arrived the very next day! So after all my searching for parts and trying to get a small build in a short 2 week period, it might just not happen. I'm not letting the Z sit for a month waiting on cams.

I already have a Mercedes 190e that's been sitting for 2 years, and just barely now I sent it to a friend to finish the engine swap on, and am waiting on custom parts for it from Europe that should be done already; that car sat so long the engine rusted out, and it's cheaper to buy a long block than fix the motor. I'm sort of disgruntled about my experiences with Motorsports companies now. Not going through the same **** with the Z waiting on parts.

If I can source cams immediately, I'll go through with it, but it's not looking hopeful.

kacz07

iTrader: (15)

Get the JWT C8s.

Fixxxercask

iTrader: (21)

I feel your pain on this. I feel like a majority of them (at least the ones I have dealt with) have the most horrible customer service and seem like they could care less when you get your parts and have no sense or urgency to get you your parts. I have learned there are very few good ones out there to deal with. I'd rather go to those same few places every time even if it costs a bit more just so I know I'm not getting dicked around and fed a line of BS.

mcarther101

iTrader: (8)

Called Z1 back today, Chuck is a good guy, and is helping me with this issue, but I am in the dilemma of deciding:
1) Wait on Tomei 272/272 10.5mm cams till the 12th
2) Order BC stage 2 (264/264 10.82mm) Get results like this possibly...
3) Order BC stage 3 (272/272 11.66mm) and have to measure valve-piston clearance, and maybe do extra BS like machine the pistons.
4) JWT C2 cams... (261/261 11.58mm) not very aggressive
5) JWT C8 cams... (272/272 12.01mm) called JWT no issues with OEM pistons/rods for valve-piston clearance.

The reason I am worried about valve-piston issues is this statement from Tomei's website:

I think Tomei's 272 duration 10.5mm lift cams might be the easiest "plug-and-play" aggressive cam. Anyone know for certain about valve-piston clearance issues in the VQ35DE with these cams? Is it just like Tomei says, 11mm lift or more = possible valve clearance issues?

Also, talking with Tomei further confirms what JWT said initially about excess wear on the camshaft lobes, and unnecessary stress on the timing chain if I go with a higher force spring. BC springs however are similar enough to Ferrea where it probably wouldn't matter. So to compare springs briefly:
Tomei single design ~53/125lbs
Ferrea dual design 90/215lbs
JWT single design 43/146lbs

I'm leaning towards selling the Ferrea kit & buying JWT C8/springs... anyone need some high RPM springs? lol

1cockyZ

iTrader: (46)

With the proposed redline the lower duration/high lift cam will make the most area under the curve. There's this relationship of increasing static compression to offset dynamic compression loss from excessive overlap. You aren't increasing compression....I know that I could spin BC264's on a wiseco 11:1 piston all the way around at TDC.