3hree5ive0ero

iTrader: (95)

The real proper answer, regardless of gear, shotsize, accessories, blah blah, is that as long as your pressure inside the combustion chamber doesn't increase to a detrimental level, you're fine. That, of course, leads to most people generally staying away from top gears when spraying to avoid to strenuous pressure increase for extended period of time.

Assuming that your internals are stock and you're spraying the full 100+ shot without progressive controllers (which ramp up and then end at the full shot; many people don't get these controllers), no amount of fancy schmancy accessory ******** is going to save your block from continuous spraying of 20 lbs of nitrous oxide in 5th or 6th gear at full blast.

And again, I don't see why you want to be spraying in those top gears anyway. If you're losing by 4th gear, then you've no hope for salvaging anything from that race. Your car isn't going to magically reel in your opponent and take the win.

Noswizard

Ooops, my post showed up in the wrong position on the thread so I deleted it and re-posted.

Noswizard

Hi everyone,

Please allow me to introduce myself, my name is Trevor Langfield and I’m the Managing Director of a UK based nitrous company (I wont mention the name in fear of breaking any promotional rules) and I’ve been designing and manufacturing unique nitrous products for over 30 years now.

A US based customer with a 350z posted a comment about this thread on my forum and it seems to me that some of you guys might benefit from my independent experience on this matter.

Here are a few facts for you;
1) Nitrous pressure is NOT constant, unless you run a pressure controlled bottle heater and even then only the pressure at the point of activation is likely to be constant.

2) Nitrous pressure is dependent on temperature, low temps = low pressure and the reverse is also true.

3) Nitrous pressure is also affected by consumption, the more you use (bigger jets), the quicker and bigger the pressure drop will be when the system is activated, plus the longer you use the system for, the greater the pressure drop will be.

4) So you may start out with say 950 psi but over a run of say 10 secs use with say 100 hp jets, the pressure at the end of use could be as low as 850 psi, which is a drop of over 10%, which means the mixture is progressively getting richer as you use the system. That is assuming your fuel pressure stays constant, which again in the main will NOT be the case, because that to will suffer a pressure drop in most cases and again this is dependent on the jet sizes being used. If you are lucky, the decline in nitrous pressure will be close to the decline in fuel pressure but it will only be by luck.

5) Whilst it’s true that nitrous flow on basic fixed hit kits is constant (apart from the effects of the falling pressure), the rate that the engine consumes it at varies as rpm changes.

6) As rpm rises, the amount of nitrous consumed PER CYCLE decreases, because you have a constant nitrous flow being consumed by progressively more but smaller bites.

7) It is for this reason that it is safer to use nitrous at higher rather than lower rpm.

8) Although it’s less of a load on the engine at high rpm, nitrous is most effective when used at low rpm where it makes huge increases in torque.

9) While there’s less load on the engine at higher rpm there are 2 other concerns to keep in mind, the first is to avoid encountering the rev limiter whilst the nitrous is activated and the second is, that the higher the rpm you use, the higher the inertia loading and the more likelihood of rod or bolt failure under load or more commonly on overrun.

10) The trick is to strike the right balance and that’s best achieved by a well designed progressive system, which will allow you flow a modest amount at low rpm and increase the flow as rpm rises, although I’d avoid rpm linked devices, as they can be problematic.

11) To avoid premature activation at low rpm and sustained activation at excessively high rpm, an rpm window switch is the ideal solution.

12) From the FACTS that I’ve provided above, you should see that the longer you use the nitrous the lower the pressure will be and therefore the less power the engine will make. You should also now appreciate that the higher the rpm the less increase in force is being applied per cycle and remember it is the load per cycle that matters not an average over an rpm range.

13) With regard to mixture, there is ONLY one cause for and ONLY one type of lean condition, regardless of how the engine gets its oxygen and fuel, be it NA, turbo, blown or nitrous and the best way to avoid it in all instances is to make sure you run a safe rich ratio. There is NO lean condition that is unique to nitrous and its use in higher gears.

14) I’ve saved the most contested point on here (using nitrous in higher gears), till last in the hope that I’ve paved the way for a clear understanding of what is involved by now. Whilst it can be said that using nitrous in higher gears is more likely to cause engine damage, due to the higher load the vehicle is under, the increase in load should not be significant enough to warrant limiting the system use to lower gears only. If you are concerned about the added load on your engine then stick with a stock motor and forget nitrous, because that applies every time you use the system no matter when and how.

15) For anyone who finds it hard to accept either side of the above statements, please consider the following EXTREME example. Say you were cruising along in top gear at say 2,000 rpm and you encounter a hill. If you tried to accelerate up the hill without changing down a few gears, the pistons would be at greater risk of being damaged, as they can’t move away from the forces of combustion as quickly as they would in a lower gear, when the engine speed for a given road speed would be higher, allowing the pistons to move away from the combustion force more readily.

16) The same applies (but not to such a degree) to nitrous being used in higher gears. The higher the gear the slower the pistons are moving for a given road speed which means they are subjected to the combustion forces for longer than in lower gears.

17) Now although that’s the case, it should also be taken in to account that when using nitrous the engine accelerates more quickly, countering the negative aspect of being in a higher gear.

18) ALL things considered especially the reduction of power over time, it is very likely to be the case, that an overall equilibrium of force and load is maintained throughout all gears, assuming that the system is activated in lower gears and used through the full gear range.

I hope I’ve cleared up the controversy and should anyone doubt my knowledge and experience, I’d be happy to point them to my web site and forum where you can see the extent of knowledge I have to offer.

I hope I’ve covered all the important points and I’m sure most of you will have something to be pleased about, in that most of you have been on the right track in one respect or another and I think the confusion has been just due to the way the info has been presented, along with a sprinkling of mixed up or missing key facts.

If I can be of any further assistance, I’d be happy to answer any questions you might have.

Best regards
Trevor Langfield (aka The WIZARD of NOS)

frankie945

iTrader: (35)

I'd say he answered your question. Don't spray in 5th... Yea newbies.

coachk

iTrader: (21)

Never have,never will...I go through the trap at the top of 4th
3500-6500rpms thats it.....

semtexcow

I PITY THE FOOL WHO DOESNT LISTEN TO THE WIZARD
DONT GIVE ME NO NOS BACKTALK SUKKAS, OR YOU MEET MY FRIEND PAIN
GGGGGRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

3hree5ive0ero

iTrader: (95)

Noswizard,

When I activated your account, I knew there was a reason for you signing up here. I've visited your site and I knew you were legit. Thanks for joining us here and clearing some things up.

Here's my reply to you (as some were directed to me):

1-12. I knew that nitrous pressure is not constant. However, for the sake of simplicity, I was making an assumption that nitrous is to be constant to prove my point that in 5th, more nitrous was to be consumed at the same rpm than it would in the 3rd gear. I took enough chemistry to know how this works (even though this is logic), but apparently some didn't. Anyway, I was going for the simplest scenario with least amount of variables so that the confused could understand. It seems that you're pretty much saying the same things I was saying but with more details.

13. I stand corrected on this matter. I guess I may have confused myself, with the simplified scenario of mine, trying to convince others that they're wrong, even though the basis of my arguments were correct.

14-18. As I've mentioned earlier, I do know that using nitrous in the top gears can be done and I do it myself also. However, my argument was that there will be added load in the top gears, as in those gears, the pistons are subjected to a greater amount of combustion. I even specifically said that I did not want the newer nitrous guys to confuse this as "I can spray in 5th and 6th without problems ever!" Thus, I took the approach where I had simplified some of the variables into constants to prove my point and make it into an easier and general rule of thumb being "don't spray in the top gears for your own sake, unless you understand what I just posted."


Thanks for taking your time to visit our forum and the knowledge you've shared with us. And thanks for proving my point in a more technical way than I have before. Hopefully those other guys who were arguing could finally see now.

BTW, this is really interesting. A few years back when I was first getting into nitrous, I used NosWizard's website (the technical page), among many many others, to understand nitrous. So, you guys see where I learned some of my knowledge from. To this day, I still have the actual page from his website, among others, on my computer so that I can reference back should I feel the need to.

Noswizard

Very good of you and happy to be of assistance.

I've done the same thing myself to simplify an explanation, so I appreciate your position.
I think the most important point that everyone failed to mention, was that nitrous consumption PER CYCLE declines as rpm rises and that in conjunction with declining pressure over time, counteracts the increase in load as you progress through the gears. What the end result will be for a given application, has too many variables to give an exact figure for but based on the fact that my customers have had VERY FEW engine failures and I've never felt the need to advise ANYONE against using nitrous in higher gears, I'd say it must be of little consequence.
However, there are 2 provisos to my position on this;
1) My systems (as you're probably aware) are totally different to ANY other and deliver the power in a more vehicle friendly manner as a consequence, so I couldn't be sure that the extreme reliability my customers have enjoyed would have been the same had I been selling any other brand of nitrous kit and advised customers to use them in high gears.
2) Your position is a reasonable one on the basis that you are giving that advice to novices, because you can never be too careful when first starting to use nitrous oxide.

Another thought that has just come to me, that is common to ALL other brands but NOT my own (which is why its only just come to me), would actually support your position a lot more.
All other brands of nitrous kits use braided supply line and this reverses the declining nitrous deliver over time situation (unless you use a purge), which would then lead to a much greater risk of engine failure in higher gears.
The reason this is the case is as follows and it's also why so many owners destroy their engines on dynos;
1) Dash 4 braided hose is not best suited to low power applications, because the bore is too big.
2) For convenience all other companies sell kits with a fixed length of braided hose, which has to be suitable for the longest vehicle they sell to.
3) While that's fine on a long car, anything shorter will have more hose than they need.
4) The combination of large bore and excessive length, means the hose has an excessively large VOLUME
5) When you first turn the bottle valve on (or after the system has been left unused for a period of time), that large volume is filled with GASEOUS nitrous NOT LIQUID nitrous.
6) While none of the above is a major problem for a car using large jets (say 300+ hp) or a car that is fitted with a purge kit, it is a MAJOR problem otherwise.
7) The smaller the jets used, the longer it takes for the gaseous nitrous to flow through/out of the system and during that time the engine will run very rich.
8) As an example of how bad this can be, I was once involved with a car that had a NOS kit fitted with 50 hp jets. When at a Drag strip he ran the 1/4 in approx 20 secs and afterwards reported back to me, that he only felt the nitrous working just before he crossed the finish line.
9) In this example (and most other cars without a purge), the engine would have been making progressively more power as the nitrous gas was replaced with nitrous liquid but this would not be at a linear rate, as it would be all gas to start with and remain that way for the first few gears, before it started to get a mix of gaseous & liquid, followed by all liquid.
10) Now this wouldn't be too bad IF the jet sizes produced the optimum mixture once liquid was flowing but what tends to happen (as was the case in my example and in many dyno runs), is that people fail to appreciate the cause of the lack of initial power and increase/lean out the jets.
11) The result is an inevitable failure which could be incorrectly blamed on the increased load in higher gears, when the truth is that its bad nitrous system design that really caused it.
12) This is an even bigger problem when dyno tuning a nitrous car, because the 1st dyno run may only last say 3 seconds, followed by some time assessing the results and adjusting the jet sizes, based on the O2 results being too rich, so the usual adjustment is to increase the nitrous jet size.
13) The 2nd dyno run will still be using gaseous nitrous as it didn't all get used up in the 1st run but because its now got a bigger jet, more of the nitrous gas gets used this time, so some liquid may have reached the engine.
14) The O2 result from the 2nd test will indicate that the mixture has been adjusted correctly, as it's now not as rich as it was at the end of the 1st run, so an even bigger nitrous jet will be fitted for the next run.
15) By the 3rd run most of the gaseous nitrous has been used, so now the jet flows mainly liquid nitrous and as a consequence the mixture will be EXTREMELY LEAN, which often results in a lean backfire followed by a major explosion in the induction system - HOW MANY OF THOSE HAVE YOU SEEN ON U-TUBE I WONDER?!?!?!
For the record, a jet flowing just gaseous nitrous will flow approx. 1/3rd of the volume it would flow of liquid nitrous.

Yes that can be easily done and it takes a good man to acknowledge when he's wrong.

I can see your reasoning and considering the design of other brands of nitrous kit, that's probably wise. However, as a general rule, especially with a well designed, well fitted and correctly used nitrous system, in the hands of an experienced nitrous user, it would be safe to use nitrous in all gears, as ALL my customers can and do.

Whilst I've provided some support for your position, please keep in mind that it was with some provisos and I think the main reason for the conflict on this thread, was due to most of the guys on here having made statements that are correct for certain (and different) situations, so I wouldn't say that those who were posting against you were wrong, it's just that most of you were on slightly different tracks (due to numerous variables involved) and I hope I've been able to get you all on the same track now.

I'm very pleased to hear it and I hope you'll drop by more often and even participate on my forum now and again.

Best regards

Trev

Noswizard

very inventive.

Noswizard

I'm not sure I wanted to give an impression as strongly as that, I just wanted to point out that it MIGHT be a LITTLE safer to do so.
However, after reflecting on the issues I mentioned above which are solely related to US brand kits, anyone who uses such a kit without a purge and then tries to tune the jetting, would certainly be well advised not to use the kit either in the higher gears or at all, without getting it set up correctly by someone with substantial experience.

3hree5ive0ero

iTrader: (95)

Noswizard, thanks again for your insight as I value your opinion far more than anybody else's when it comes to nitrous on our forums. After all, the nitrous information I've gathered throughout the years are partly in thanks to you unintentionally and ironically.

BTW, the reason why I was defending my view was that, like you've mentioned, most of us have steel braided lines. From what I know, not many people even know about the nylon lines and I've only given some thought about replacing mine a while ago, but decided against it. Your site is one of the few that actually even mentions the possibility of nylon lines, so I had to cater to the majority's needs according to their set ups. Also, if I recall correctly, you guys also have a different type of solenoids, too, no? I've thought about replacing my solenoids with the WON's, too.

madwi

Their solenoids (pulsoids by their name) are top notch and the reason I went with their system.

3hree5ive0ero

iTrader: (95)

Yeah, pulsoids, that's it. I've given thought about their solenoids and their nylons lines, too. I just couldn't justify spending more money on nitrous parts, though.

semtexcow

the main thing to remember about pulsoids is there guaranteed not to leak, EVER
now with the likes of NOS stating that their solinoids DO actually leak, it seems no contest
buy parts that by the manufacturers own admission dont work reliably, or buy parts that by design do work 100% for years and years
plus IF they ever do develop a fault will be repaired under lifetime warranty

i guess you guys in the states have access to far cheaper turbos, engines etc
so its only fair that us guys in the uk have easy access to by far the best nos systems in the world

yeah i know im a customer of trevs, but with the facts above its easy to see why

99% of the nos induction system explosions on utube wouldnt have happened with one of trevs systems
reasons being, non leaking pulsoids, virtually instant liquid nos delivery at injectors, and most of all trevs almost 24/7 advice online

the remaining 1% are just muppets who either dont have a clue of what their doing or dyno operators who dont understand nos

theres far too much BS thats seen as fact with nos use
for all the correct facts all thats required is to ask at http://forum.nitrous-advice.org/index.php

id like to say its very nice to find another forum where this information is welcomed instead of being ignored

3hree5ive0ero

iTrader: (95)

Had I known about the WON products years back when I was getting my nitrous set up, it would have been no contest. If I ever decide to change out solenoids and lines, then you can bet I'll be going with the WON solenoids and the lines.

And on this forum, any legitimate information that is being shared without negativity toward others will always be welcomed, never ignored nor disparaged.

semtexcow

i just hope you dont decide to change after some damage has occured to your engine
i have an inline nos pressure gauge on my dashboard, i use it to do a basic leakdown test on the nos system with the bottle turned off
the system has kept pressure for upto 2months while the car wasnt used
id recommend it to all nos users, even more so to non won owners as it will show instantly if something is leaking

i can see that the information is welcomed here, but it does make a genuine change from the normal
its easy to bury your head in the sand, and so far apart from the odd occasion like here the truth isnt wanted

its to your credit that this has happened

3hree5ive0ero

iTrader: (95)

I certainly hope that will never be the case. I only use nitrous at the track and I do it safely, so hopefully no such thing will ever happen.

And I don't deserve the credit, the entire forum does. I don't/didn't make the forum as it is now. I just enforce the rules where appropriate.

Noswizard

Very kind of you to say so.

Yes we're the only company that use nylon line for the bottle to solenoid feed (to avoid the problems caused by braided) and our Pulsoids like most of our other components are unique. There are many reasons why this is the case but the main one has been my life long desire to produce the best products in all respects.

3hree5ive0ero

iTrader: (95)

Maybe you can send me some pulsoid solenoids and some nylons lines so I can test them out in the States for ya. I'll throw in some free advertising, too.

nissansource

iTrader: (10)

Noswizard Thanks alot of clearing this up for the people here. What is your website? id love to look at your products. 3 5 0 i dont think its fair to be banning people when you yourself where being imature about the situation. No hard feelings i just wanted to state here that your basic nos kit is just basic and you can make them work safely up top. It all comes down to tuning and thats what i was trying to say the whole time and it seems to have gotten missed in the conversations. Either way any ill feelings lets throw them aside and shake hands. NOSWIZARD thanks for your contribution to the thread along with ShagSpeed AKA Chris Allen. You both are very intelligent and thanks for your input.

NOSWIZARD id love to purchase your product to have on hand for customers can i get a website address? please PM me
Is it WON PRODUCTS?