For you guys that are interested in pushbutton start.
If punish her gets either button to work I am definitely interested
10-24-2007, 08:07 AM
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After going over the wiring diagrams it does look possible to totaly isolate the NATS antena from the main bundle. The antena is connected directly to the body control module (BCM) by 4 wires with no the splices or connectors down the line. It conects to the system via a 8 pin connector with 4 active pins (1 Lavender,3 green/white,5 black,7brown). For service manual refrence BL-123 is the page with the vehicle wiring for the NATS system,The signal travels through the BCM directly to the ECM which either allows the car to start or imobilizes the car.
Since there is a connector by on the NATS end of the line it is possible to remove the NATS, unplug it, seperate the bundles, rerun the NATS bundle where you need it then reinstall the NATS antena.
So with the last info of the ignition wiring and the NATS wiring, Im 95% certain that it should be possible to relocate your NATS antena. Now the last 5% is the proof of concept. Again... any guinne pigs on a temp relocation of about 2 feet to see if the antena truely does allow the car to start with out being next to the ignition switch.
EDIT: My big question is, "Has nobody else even looked into this, or am I the only one?" Guess I need to post in the main forums to see.
Since there is a connector by on the NATS end of the line it is possible to remove the NATS, unplug it, seperate the bundles, rerun the NATS bundle where you need it then reinstall the NATS antena.
So with the last info of the ignition wiring and the NATS wiring, Im 95% certain that it should be possible to relocate your NATS antena. Now the last 5% is the proof of concept. Again... any guinne pigs on a temp relocation of about 2 feet to see if the antena truely does allow the car to start with out being next to the ignition switch.
EDIT: My big question is, "Has nobody else even looked into this, or am I the only one?" Guess I need to post in the main forums to see.
10-27-2007, 10:35 PM
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I wont be able to go forward with the hardware testing until I get back home. If you wanna see if this is aplacable to the maxima what you need to find is the wring diagrams for your ignition (usualy one for each voltage system ie power in, on/acc, ignition, start, etc)
If every thing is mirrored, as in each system is independant; it should work the same. Again, right now it works on paper; but as we all know there are inherit ghosts in the system that act up in practice and not theory.
If every thing is mirrored, as in each system is independant; it should work the same. Again, right now it works on paper; but as we all know there are inherit ghosts in the system that act up in practice and not theory.
10-27-2007, 11:01 PM
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Originally Posted by dj.kickz
just to clarify this is a push button start for your Z, the push button start option for your girlfriend is much more expensive.
10-28-2007, 01:02 AM
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Originally Posted by blowdry
My mute button has never worked w/my wife
10-28-2007, 09:52 AM
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Originally Posted by DeusExMaxima
I could never master that. Maybe THATS why Im not married any more?
As Confusious says:
Tis better to be thought a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt
A wise man speaks because he has something to say, a foolish man because he has to say something.
or my personal favorite...
Foolish man gives wife a grand piano, Wise man give wife upright organ.
10-28-2007, 03:13 PM
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Originally Posted by punish_her
Foolish man gives wife a grand piano, Wise man give wife upright organ.
10-29-2007, 11:02 PM
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Originally Posted by DeusExMaxima
The ***** is the only upright organ??
Well you jumped ahead of some of the thought process but um... yes.
I was trying to get him to realize they are all ORGANS, then he would connect the upright organ coment. But yeah that.
11-01-2007, 02:52 AM
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The nats antenna most likely won't work past 3 inches. You should be able to more the receiver, or make a new one (something like a DEI 556U).
You won't be able to do all this for $70 though (most likely). If you elminate the mechanical key switch you're going to need a smart control unit to turn the igntion and accessory on and off, and to control cranking. It would also be interesting to see what happens if no the car senses no key at all. I'm guessing you would want a system that works by turning ACC on with the first push of the button, IGN on with the 2nd, and it will start when the button is pushed with the brake pushed down. This could be done with relays, but it will be messy.
The main problem I see with dropping a key in the ashtray is that you would have to make sure the key drops to the very bottom of the ash tray directly above the antenna, other wise the car most likely won't start. This, to me, would be more inconvenient then putting the key in the ignition.
As far as the KPtechnologies module being expensive, the push button itself is over $30 of the price, leaving only $120 for the control module and labor going in to buiding the thing. The Altima push button has to be heavily modified to work reliably in a car environment (we seal it, sand it down, solder wires to it, and then ecapsulate a 6' control wire to it). We then add a plug to the end of the switch so it is easy to install.
Good luck with your project, there are quite a few unknowns at this point. First, it will be interesting to see the mechanical link between the ignition switch and the steering wheel and how they acomplish that security feature.
Second, it would be interesting to see how the keysense wire works. It is possible that it is only used for the door chime when you leave the key in the ignition, but it may be used for other things (like to activate the NATS for that 5 second period).
You won't be able to do all this for $70 though (most likely). If you elminate the mechanical key switch you're going to need a smart control unit to turn the igntion and accessory on and off, and to control cranking. It would also be interesting to see what happens if no the car senses no key at all. I'm guessing you would want a system that works by turning ACC on with the first push of the button, IGN on with the 2nd, and it will start when the button is pushed with the brake pushed down. This could be done with relays, but it will be messy.
The main problem I see with dropping a key in the ashtray is that you would have to make sure the key drops to the very bottom of the ash tray directly above the antenna, other wise the car most likely won't start. This, to me, would be more inconvenient then putting the key in the ignition.
As far as the KPtechnologies module being expensive, the push button itself is over $30 of the price, leaving only $120 for the control module and labor going in to buiding the thing. The Altima push button has to be heavily modified to work reliably in a car environment (we seal it, sand it down, solder wires to it, and then ecapsulate a 6' control wire to it). We then add a plug to the end of the switch so it is easy to install.
Good luck with your project, there are quite a few unknowns at this point. First, it will be interesting to see the mechanical link between the ignition switch and the steering wheel and how they acomplish that security feature.
Second, it would be interesting to see how the keysense wire works. It is possible that it is only used for the door chime when you leave the key in the ignition, but it may be used for other things (like to activate the NATS for that 5 second period).
11-01-2007, 04:28 AM
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Originally Posted by KPierson
The nats antenna most likely won't work past 3 inches. You should be able to more the receiver, or make a new one (something like a DEI 556U).
You won't be able to do all this for $70 though (most likely). If you elminate the mechanical key switch you're going to need a smart control unit to turn the igntion and accessory on and off, and to control cranking. It would also be interesting to see what happens if no the car senses no key at all. I'm guessing you would want a system that works by turning ACC on with the first push of the button, IGN on with the 2nd, and it will start when the button is pushed with the brake pushed down. This could be done with relays, but it will be messy.
The main problem I see with dropping a key in the ashtray is that you would have to make sure the key drops to the very bottom of the ash tray directly above the antenna, other wise the car most likely won't start. This, to me, would be more inconvenient then putting the key in the ignition.
As far as the KPtechnologies module being expensive, the push button itself is over $30 of the price, leaving only $120 for the control module and labor going in to buiding the thing. The Altima push button has to be heavily modified to work reliably in a car environment (we seal it, sand it down, solder wires to it, and then ecapsulate a 6' control wire to it). We then add a plug to the end of the switch so it is easy to install.
Good luck with your project, there are quite a few unknowns at this point. First, it will be interesting to see the mechanical link between the ignition switch and the steering wheel and how they acomplish that security feature.
Second, it would be interesting to see how the keysense wire works. It is possible that it is only used for the door chime when you leave the key in the ignition, but it may be used for other things (like to activate the NATS for that 5 second period).
You won't be able to do all this for $70 though (most likely). If you elminate the mechanical key switch you're going to need a smart control unit to turn the igntion and accessory on and off, and to control cranking. It would also be interesting to see what happens if no the car senses no key at all. I'm guessing you would want a system that works by turning ACC on with the first push of the button, IGN on with the 2nd, and it will start when the button is pushed with the brake pushed down. This could be done with relays, but it will be messy.
The main problem I see with dropping a key in the ashtray is that you would have to make sure the key drops to the very bottom of the ash tray directly above the antenna, other wise the car most likely won't start. This, to me, would be more inconvenient then putting the key in the ignition.
As far as the KPtechnologies module being expensive, the push button itself is over $30 of the price, leaving only $120 for the control module and labor going in to buiding the thing. The Altima push button has to be heavily modified to work reliably in a car environment (we seal it, sand it down, solder wires to it, and then ecapsulate a 6' control wire to it). We then add a plug to the end of the switch so it is easy to install.
Good luck with your project, there are quite a few unknowns at this point. First, it will be interesting to see the mechanical link between the ignition switch and the steering wheel and how they acomplish that security feature.
Second, it would be interesting to see how the keysense wire works. It is possible that it is only used for the door chime when you leave the key in the ignition, but it may be used for other things (like to activate the NATS for that 5 second period).
As for the acc thing, nothing complicated like that was in mind. I didnt know if you could turn your ACC on with your switch alone or would a "diagnostic" switch be need to wired in parallel with the ACC that way you can push the new "diagnostic" switch to access the acc/on power to check and clear codes. I was only speculating about the clutch not being depressed sending your switch into its sequence but not starting. You know like trying to start a manual with out the brake in (or what ever state does not allow the ctarting of the car).
Im a firm beliver in the K.I.S.S. method of engneering. Simpler is WAY better. According to the wiring I have found for the system it fairly simple set up with several parts to the NVIS. No part is being bypassed and with the NATS being the only antena, that being reocated and not changing the wiring; it should work in theory.
As I have said previously there are ghosts in the system we dont see until tested. Definately looking forward to see what this does. It should be a fairly simple and strait forward test. Relocating the antena a few feet, start car. If that works the next step is trying it in the new relocation spot. Then wiring the push button into the ignition. If that works you have your answer. It should only take acouple of hours to test it all out.
11-01-2007, 05:23 AM
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Ok found some answers out about the key fob operation starting at BL-49
Key fob signal is inputted to BCM (the antenna of the system is combined with BCM).
The remote keyless entry system controls operation of the
power door lock
hazard and horn reminder
auto door lock
interior lamp and step lamp
panic alarm
back door opener
keyless power window down (open)
The Key fob antena is for body control, and have nothing to do with the key switch states; are read through the BCM. This has nothing to do with the NVIS control.
The back door is disabled when the key switch state for the ignition is on. There is a key switch in the rear of the ignition switch conector M25 and has a single continuity 2 wire conector. When the key switch is in the on POS; pin 62 of conector M3 of the BCM system has 12+vdc as well as continuity between pins 1&2 of the key switch.
It looks as if the Key switch is used as a saftey interlock to complete a circuit connected to pin 62 of M3 providing power to the BCM. With the key switch in the on pos the BCM has power and deactivets the trunk hatch remote operation. When the key switch is off, it can open the trunk. So the key CAN be in the car and open the trunk.
As I've found so for the key switch effects: key reminder (beeping when driver side door switch is on and key switch is on), programming of the new key ID( key switch off no power to BCM directly); provides power to the BCM (power on BCM has power). This would mean that a simple realy would need to be install that under power it would enable continuity between pins 1&2 I guess getting power with a relay when the ON/IG is on. Not a hard problem to fix. Those are the only 2 connectors on the Ignition switch, the power/groud connector and the key switch connector.
The key switch refrences are all throughout the BL series and is outlined in the walk through and trouble shooting sections. I'll try to find the wiring diagram for the key switch. With the key switch on a relay its activation is automatic with the initial push of the button or how ever its wired.
Key fob signal is inputted to BCM (the antenna of the system is combined with BCM).
The remote keyless entry system controls operation of the
power door lock
hazard and horn reminder
auto door lock
interior lamp and step lamp
panic alarm
back door opener
keyless power window down (open)
The Key fob antena is for body control, and have nothing to do with the key switch states; are read through the BCM. This has nothing to do with the NVIS control.
The back door is disabled when the key switch state for the ignition is on. There is a key switch in the rear of the ignition switch conector M25 and has a single continuity 2 wire conector. When the key switch is in the on POS; pin 62 of conector M3 of the BCM system has 12+vdc as well as continuity between pins 1&2 of the key switch.
It looks as if the Key switch is used as a saftey interlock to complete a circuit connected to pin 62 of M3 providing power to the BCM. With the key switch in the on pos the BCM has power and deactivets the trunk hatch remote operation. When the key switch is off, it can open the trunk. So the key CAN be in the car and open the trunk.
As I've found so for the key switch effects: key reminder (beeping when driver side door switch is on and key switch is on), programming of the new key ID( key switch off no power to BCM directly); provides power to the BCM (power on BCM has power). This would mean that a simple realy would need to be install that under power it would enable continuity between pins 1&2 I guess getting power with a relay when the ON/IG is on. Not a hard problem to fix. Those are the only 2 connectors on the Ignition switch, the power/groud connector and the key switch connector.
The key switch refrences are all throughout the BL series and is outlined in the walk through and trouble shooting sections. I'll try to find the wiring diagram for the key switch. With the key switch on a relay its activation is automatic with the initial push of the button or how ever its wired.
Last edited by punish_her; 11-01-2007 at 05:31 AM.
11-01-2007, 06:30 AM
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Originally Posted by punish_her
As for the acc thing, nothing complicated like that was in mind. I didnt know if you could turn your ACC on with your switch alone or would a "diagnostic" switch be need to wired in parallel with the ACC that way you can push the new "diagnostic" switch to access the acc/on power to check and clear codes. I was only speculating about the clutch not being depressed sending your switch into its sequence but not starting. You know like trying to start a manual with out the brake in (or what ever state does not allow the ctarting of the car).
The clutch isn't referenced at all, as all engine status is done through a tachometer monitoring input OR through simple visual indicators if the tach wire isn't hooked up.
11-01-2007, 07:08 AM
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Originally Posted by KPierson
In my system the key is still fully functional, so if you want ACC you put the key in the ACC position. The push button isn't enabled until the ignition is turned on.
The clutch isn't referenced at all, as all engine status is done through a tachometer monitoring input OR through simple visual indicators if the tach wire isn't hooked up.
The clutch isn't referenced at all, as all engine status is done through a tachometer monitoring input OR through simple visual indicators if the tach wire isn't hooked up.
So the Ignition and ACC are still active on the ignition key. That would meen your switch is in parallel with the ignition switch. The other S2K switch was able to be wired directly in place of the ignition switch, eliminating all the function of the ignition power leaving only the key switch and NATS Antena. So to eliminate the the ignition switch all together you would need to wire your switch directly in line with the ON/ING switch and using a secondary toggle switch to control the ACC switch and providing power to a small relay completing the key switch circuit.
It would be wired like:
ACC power to front side of small switch (12V constant)
relay lead 1 ACC power out
relay lead 3 is pin one of key switch
relay lead 4 is pin two of key switch
relay lead 2 is power to acc cirtuit
So switch operation would go something like:
Switch off-
ACC power to front side of small switch (open)
relay lead 1 ACC power out (12v)
relay lead 3 is pin one of key switch (no continuity)
relay lead 4 is pin two of key switch (no power to BCM)
relay lead 2 is power to acc cirtuit (0v)
Key in place near NATS Antena
Switch on -
ACC power to front side of small switch (closed)
relay lead 1 ACC power out (12v)
relay lead 3 is pin one of key switch (continuity)
relay lead 4 is pin two of key switch (power to BCM)
relay lead 2 is power to Acc cirtuit (12v)
Push Start button thats wired inplace of ignition switch.
This would take all the wires from the ignition switch and key switch: 12V from battery, acc, ignition, start, pin 2 (12v power in), and pin 1 (continuity provides power to BCM).
See any flaws in this logic? Looks like the only thing in addition to your switch is 1-4 pin relay and a togle switch.
EDIT: or the relay be wired to the ING backside of your switch to activate the relay and key swith with out having the ACC on all the time.
Last edited by punish_her; 11-01-2007 at 07:11 AM.
11-01-2007, 10:35 AM
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You may want to check to see how many wires are on the back of the key switch itself. I believe (From memory) there is the 12v hot wire, one ignition wire, two accessory wires, and two starter wires. The key sense (I believe) is in the small wire bundle. You would need relay control of 5 wires, so a minimum of 5 30A relays as you will need all circuits powered up when the car is 'running'. Ideally, you would want to kill power the the two accessory circuits when you are cranking the car, but leave power on the ignition relay (to imitate factory operation).
I believe you are wrong about the way the S2000 switch works. It is my understanding (I've never installed one) that they only interface with the actual starter wire, and leave all ignition control to the factory switch. Some people cut the starter wire from the igntion switch which will prevent starting from the OEM ignition switch. To my knowledge there isn't anything in the S2000 switch to control ignitions and accessories. I even belive the actual S2000 is like that (insert key to turn ignition on then push button).
I believe you are wrong about the way the S2000 switch works. It is my understanding (I've never installed one) that they only interface with the actual starter wire, and leave all ignition control to the factory switch. Some people cut the starter wire from the igntion switch which will prevent starting from the OEM ignition switch. To my knowledge there isn't anything in the S2000 switch to control ignitions and accessories. I even belive the actual S2000 is like that (insert key to turn ignition on then push button).
11-01-2007, 03:04 PM
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Originally Posted by KPierson
You may want to check to see how many wires are on the back of the key switch itself. I believe (From memory) there is the 12v hot wire, one ignition wire, two accessory wires, and two starter wires. The key sense (I believe) is in the small wire bundle. You would need relay control of 5 wires, so a minimum of 5 30A relays as you will need all circuits powered up when the car is 'running'. Ideally, you would want to kill power the the two accessory circuits when you are cranking the car, but leave power on the ignition relay (to imitate factory operation).
According to the service manual there is only 5 pins providing power to the ignition switch. This guys pictures ( https://my350z.com/forum/showpost...52&postcount=1) show the same thing. With out daytime running lights (pin 5) there is only 4 pins used on the ignition power connector. The key switch is rigged up to be on when the key is in the ignition so independant from the start functions. Are you sure you are not thinking about the NATS antena wiring? That is an 8 pin connector I think.
The non start condition I refrenced earlier is found on SC-10 for MT's. It's a clutch interlock inline with the starting system. It will not start unless the clutch is depressed. Not depressing the clutch gives the power on but no start condition I was talking about earlier.
I'll look through the service manual a little more after work but I realy dont see the multiple wires you called out. Again if you have a refrence that would be super.
11-01-2007, 04:22 PM
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OK, I have the manual in front of me now.
Pin 1 - white/blue - 12vdc
Pin 2 - white/black - Accessory relay
Pin 3 - black/red - Ignition
Pin 4 -
Pin 5 - white/red - Starter 1
Pin 6 - white/green - Starter 2 (referenced to daylight running lights in the manual, but recomended to hook up by remote start manufacturers to make sure the car starts when its cold - this is a completely different subject all together, but if you live somewhere that is cold you should probably hook it up to make sure the car will start)
I couldn't find any reference to pin 4, so I'm assuming its not there.
So I was completely off base with my recollection. I could have swore there were two seperate ACC wires.
The keysense wire doesn't appear to do much. It is possible that it can be ignored. I would think it wouldn't be hard to just tie the BCM keysense wire in to the ignition wire so that whenever the ignition is on the BCM 'thinks' the key is in the ignition. They are both 12vdc signals so they could be tied together at the BCM.
Pin 1 - white/blue - 12vdc
Pin 2 - white/black - Accessory relay
Pin 3 - black/red - Ignition
Pin 4 -
Pin 5 - white/red - Starter 1
Pin 6 - white/green - Starter 2 (referenced to daylight running lights in the manual, but recomended to hook up by remote start manufacturers to make sure the car starts when its cold - this is a completely different subject all together, but if you live somewhere that is cold you should probably hook it up to make sure the car will start)
I couldn't find any reference to pin 4, so I'm assuming its not there.
So I was completely off base with my recollection. I could have swore there were two seperate ACC wires.
The keysense wire doesn't appear to do much. It is possible that it can be ignored. I would think it wouldn't be hard to just tie the BCM keysense wire in to the ignition wire so that whenever the ignition is on the BCM 'thinks' the key is in the ignition. They are both 12vdc signals so they could be tied together at the BCM.