SOME INTERESTING NEWS I CAME ACROSS TODAY...
SOME INTERESTING NEWS I CAME ACROSS TODAY...
Now, now, yet another thread about the freakin GTR (I know)... Be patient with me as I never thought I would actually be the one to post the millionth thread on the over hype of this amazing, yet apparently not so amazing vehicle. Question is: After reading the attached thread, is this somehow applicable to the Z33? The curiousity has got the best of me but as far as I know, I haven't heard of any major complaints of transmission failure in the Z due to constant use of the VDC and/or void of warranty etc... Read on, enjoy, and post your comments. Just curious... 
http://www.nagtroc.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=25361
http://www.nagtroc.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=25361
Last edited by _STEVEO_01; Oct 16, 2008 at 01:03 AM.
Registered User
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 457
Likes: 0
From: Honolulu, HI; Glendale, CA
funny thing is, no one knows where the black box is in the gtr. i have been following up with this and according to nissan technicians, no one was trained on how to read this box. anyways, to answer your question steve, i think that there is a big difference between the two vehicles as far as transmission. i dont think that it affects the z as much as it does the gtr. but i could be wrong, i will talk to my nissan guy today. btw, i seen your car at new city the other day, was something wrong with it?
A physics look into this...
The big issue with the VDC is with the Auto tranny and the GTR. The VDC on the GTR controls each wheel specificly, causing ALOT of uneven pressure on the clutch plates. Force is a multiplier, and aparently the friction material used was not realy factored for use with uneven power. With a trans-lateral shear load (a front to back and left to right load shift at the same instance) wheel slip with VDC off, the torque on the packs would be the greatest and potentialy shattering parts. With that positioning of the load the axles/transaxles act as levers multiplying total force applyed. When you rock it as in conditions of snow or mud, the force is quickly shifted to the gripping wheels. Like bending a paper clip fast. The stresses are bound to break some thing.
Yes this is an over simplification but physics is physics. The input shaft into the tranny is the fulcrom, any shaft along that center line is the fulcrom. The transfer case is off set to one side making 2 points of leverage. Bolt cutters work on the same principle. Multiplied leverage with 2 fulcroms. I bet you money the main points of failure in these trannies is the mechanical workings that are transfering the load from the main box to the transfer case. That is the area under the greatest load transfering the diffrent loads front back real quick during the power transfers.
With the Z the VDC cuts power. TCS compares wheel speed front to back, VDC compares left to right with the YAW sensor to determine if you are in under or over steer. What it ends up doing is cutting power to the drive line. Since there is one drive shaft going into single diffy the ony fulcrom is on the input shaft via the diff/ring gear. Since both wheels are conected to the single ring gear reguardless of the wheel spin the same power is being transfered to the input shaft in %. So 50/50 is no slip, 51/49 is right slip (loss in power on the right). Give that the vehicle has basic VLSD and no clutches. The GTR physicly seperates the power through electic controlled diffs and leaves 100% of the power in the drive line. So there is the potential of a 0/100 shift to a single wheel. The VLSD will always have a load on one end or the other since they are physicly connected via the diff.
The Z you would find the major stresses in the gearing that are close to 1:1 or greater (lower 3 gears). Nissan designed arround that by braising the 3rd gear ring gears on the tranny to its shaft, building in a weak point to break instead of other more costly places like the input shaft. Yes it will mess a few things up with the 3rd gear busting out, but if the input shaft breaks off inside the tranny there is ALOT worse that can happen. Exploding the tranny it self.
Again, this is not ment to be an 100% know it all answer. Its just an interpritation of physics based on general ideas of how each tranny works. Since Im not a Mech Engineer and do not have the exact plans, material specs, and loading info all this is a hypothesis. But I'd still be currious to see where the tranny is specificly failing.
I do find it kind of hoaky that Nissan has not solved this issue or even left a MAJOR flaw in their design. After all the hype you would think they expected you to fully utilize all options on the vehicle. Hell put a big red button infront of some one and tell them not to push it. Um yeah some one is bound to push it. Dont build in "Future" features that the vehicle isnt prepared to use. BMW has a similar feature and it works well. What up with that Nissan?
Yes this is an over simplification but physics is physics. The input shaft into the tranny is the fulcrom, any shaft along that center line is the fulcrom. The transfer case is off set to one side making 2 points of leverage. Bolt cutters work on the same principle. Multiplied leverage with 2 fulcroms. I bet you money the main points of failure in these trannies is the mechanical workings that are transfering the load from the main box to the transfer case. That is the area under the greatest load transfering the diffrent loads front back real quick during the power transfers.
With the Z the VDC cuts power. TCS compares wheel speed front to back, VDC compares left to right with the YAW sensor to determine if you are in under or over steer. What it ends up doing is cutting power to the drive line. Since there is one drive shaft going into single diffy the ony fulcrom is on the input shaft via the diff/ring gear. Since both wheels are conected to the single ring gear reguardless of the wheel spin the same power is being transfered to the input shaft in %. So 50/50 is no slip, 51/49 is right slip (loss in power on the right). Give that the vehicle has basic VLSD and no clutches. The GTR physicly seperates the power through electic controlled diffs and leaves 100% of the power in the drive line. So there is the potential of a 0/100 shift to a single wheel. The VLSD will always have a load on one end or the other since they are physicly connected via the diff.
The Z you would find the major stresses in the gearing that are close to 1:1 or greater (lower 3 gears). Nissan designed arround that by braising the 3rd gear ring gears on the tranny to its shaft, building in a weak point to break instead of other more costly places like the input shaft. Yes it will mess a few things up with the 3rd gear busting out, but if the input shaft breaks off inside the tranny there is ALOT worse that can happen. Exploding the tranny it self.
Again, this is not ment to be an 100% know it all answer. Its just an interpritation of physics based on general ideas of how each tranny works. Since Im not a Mech Engineer and do not have the exact plans, material specs, and loading info all this is a hypothesis. But I'd still be currious to see where the tranny is specificly failing.
I do find it kind of hoaky that Nissan has not solved this issue or even left a MAJOR flaw in their design. After all the hype you would think they expected you to fully utilize all options on the vehicle. Hell put a big red button infront of some one and tell them not to push it. Um yeah some one is bound to push it. Dont build in "Future" features that the vehicle isnt prepared to use. BMW has a similar feature and it works well. What up with that Nissan?
The big issue with the VDC is with the Auto tranny and the GTR. The VDC on the GTR controls each wheel specificly, causing ALOT of uneven pressure on the clutch plates. Force is a multiplier, and aparently the friction material used was not realy factored for use with uneven power. With a trans-lateral shear load (a front to back and left to right load shift at the same instance) wheel slip with VDC off, the torque on the packs would be the greatest and potentialy shattering parts. With that positioning of the load the axles/transaxles act as levers multiplying total force applyed. When you rock it as in conditions of snow or mud, the force is quickly shifted to the gripping wheels. Like bending a paper clip fast. The stresses are bound to break some thing.
Yes this is an over simplification but physics is physics. The input shaft into the tranny is the fulcrom, any shaft along that center line is the fulcrom. The transfer case is off set to one side making 2 points of leverage. Bolt cutters work on the same principle. Multiplied leverage with 2 fulcroms. I bet you money the main points of failure in these trannies is the mechanical workings that are transfering the load from the main box to the transfer case. That is the area under the greatest load transfering the diffrent loads front back real quick during the power transfers.
With the Z the VDC cuts power. TCS compares wheel speed front to back, VDC compares left to right with the YAW sensor to determine if you are in under or over steer. What it ends up doing is cutting power to the drive line. Since there is one drive shaft going into single diffy the ony fulcrom is on the input shaft via the diff/ring gear. Since both wheels are conected to the single ring gear reguardless of the wheel spin the same power is being transfered to the input shaft in %. So 50/50 is no slip, 51/49 is right slip (loss in power on the right). Give that the vehicle has basic VLSD and no clutches. The GTR physicly seperates the power through electic controlled diffs and leaves 100% of the power in the drive line. So there is the potential of a 0/100 shift to a single wheel. The VLSD will always have a load on one end or the other since they are physicly connected via the diff.
The Z you would find the major stresses in the gearing that are close to 1:1 or greater (lower 3 gears). Nissan designed arround that by braising the 3rd gear ring gears on the tranny to its shaft, building in a weak point to break instead of other more costly places like the input shaft. Yes it will mess a few things up with the 3rd gear busting out, but if the input shaft breaks off inside the tranny there is ALOT worse that can happen. Exploding the tranny it self.
Again, this is not ment to be an 100% know it all answer. Its just an interpritation of physics based on general ideas of how each tranny works. Since Im not a Mech Engineer and do not have the exact plans, material specs, and loading info all this is a hypothesis. But I'd still be currious to see where the tranny is specificly failing.
I do find it kind of hoaky that Nissan has not solved this issue or even left a MAJOR flaw in their design. After all the hype you would think they expected you to fully utilize all options on the vehicle. Hell put a big red button infront of some one and tell them not to push it. Um yeah some one is bound to push it. Dont build in "Future" features that the vehicle isnt prepared to use. BMW has a similar feature and it works well. What up with that Nissan?
Yes this is an over simplification but physics is physics. The input shaft into the tranny is the fulcrom, any shaft along that center line is the fulcrom. The transfer case is off set to one side making 2 points of leverage. Bolt cutters work on the same principle. Multiplied leverage with 2 fulcroms. I bet you money the main points of failure in these trannies is the mechanical workings that are transfering the load from the main box to the transfer case. That is the area under the greatest load transfering the diffrent loads front back real quick during the power transfers.
With the Z the VDC cuts power. TCS compares wheel speed front to back, VDC compares left to right with the YAW sensor to determine if you are in under or over steer. What it ends up doing is cutting power to the drive line. Since there is one drive shaft going into single diffy the ony fulcrom is on the input shaft via the diff/ring gear. Since both wheels are conected to the single ring gear reguardless of the wheel spin the same power is being transfered to the input shaft in %. So 50/50 is no slip, 51/49 is right slip (loss in power on the right). Give that the vehicle has basic VLSD and no clutches. The GTR physicly seperates the power through electic controlled diffs and leaves 100% of the power in the drive line. So there is the potential of a 0/100 shift to a single wheel. The VLSD will always have a load on one end or the other since they are physicly connected via the diff.
The Z you would find the major stresses in the gearing that are close to 1:1 or greater (lower 3 gears). Nissan designed arround that by braising the 3rd gear ring gears on the tranny to its shaft, building in a weak point to break instead of other more costly places like the input shaft. Yes it will mess a few things up with the 3rd gear busting out, but if the input shaft breaks off inside the tranny there is ALOT worse that can happen. Exploding the tranny it self.
Again, this is not ment to be an 100% know it all answer. Its just an interpritation of physics based on general ideas of how each tranny works. Since Im not a Mech Engineer and do not have the exact plans, material specs, and loading info all this is a hypothesis. But I'd still be currious to see where the tranny is specificly failing.
I do find it kind of hoaky that Nissan has not solved this issue or even left a MAJOR flaw in their design. After all the hype you would think they expected you to fully utilize all options on the vehicle. Hell put a big red button infront of some one and tell them not to push it. Um yeah some one is bound to push it. Dont build in "Future" features that the vehicle isnt prepared to use. BMW has a similar feature and it works well. What up with that Nissan?
Trending Topics
Pardone the badly rongeded splelling. I wrote this after a 22 hour transit and no sleep. Had to do some thing to push me out to a decent hour until I could sleep. But thanks for the input on trying to keep this accurate, to include spelling. Im deffinately sure there is some fuct up use of commas and semicolons (or at least thats the consistant feed back from all my papers I've been writing for my classes. 
Last edited by punish_her; Oct 19, 2008 at 03:20 AM.
::EDIT:::
I did find one mistake I do need to correct. The VDC on the Z also brakes each wheel individualy to bring the yaw into the correct specs in addition to controling engine output.
Last edited by punish_her; Oct 19, 2008 at 03:33 AM.
you're so freakin' funny...a light background...is there such a thing in nuclear physics???
Registered User
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 641
Likes: 0
From: hawaii
I actualy have a light back ground in Nuclear Physics, Radiation/ Health physics, and basic the mechanichal stresses. Nothing too in dept, enough to get me in trouble and not enough to get me out.
::EDIT:::
I did find one mistake I do need to correct. The VDC on the Z also brakes each wheel individualy to bring the yaw into the correct specs in addition to controling engine output.
::EDIT:::
I did find one mistake I do need to correct. The VDC on the Z also brakes each wheel individualy to bring the yaw into the correct specs in addition to controling engine output.
Currently I do network security for the US Embassy system in their secure area's that are Controlled access. I will be going back to my old job in December, Neuclear Treaty Monitoring.
I say light because I dont have an indepth knowlege only a fundamental understanding of neuclear theories and practicle applications. More of an R&D background in develiping equipment. I am an NRC Certified Radiotion safety officer. Surveying, calculating dosages, and doing the math in figuring out the Z ratings of shielding materials. I started to dabble a little in Optical Physics and propigation theory on my own.
What can I say, Im a geek at heart. I tought my self in the 6th grade the fundamentals of physics. I got a hold of a Physics 101 level book from a book repository that was in the building my mom worked at and started to read and study it. It all went down hill from there.
OP sorry for the OT.
I say light because I dont have an indepth knowlege only a fundamental understanding of neuclear theories and practicle applications. More of an R&D background in develiping equipment. I am an NRC Certified Radiotion safety officer. Surveying, calculating dosages, and doing the math in figuring out the Z ratings of shielding materials. I started to dabble a little in Optical Physics and propigation theory on my own.
What can I say, Im a geek at heart. I tought my self in the 6th grade the fundamentals of physics. I got a hold of a Physics 101 level book from a book repository that was in the building my mom worked at and started to read and study it. It all went down hill from there
. OP sorry for the OT.
The Z rating of a metarial is the determinign factor in which it has resistance to propigating nuclear radiation. Depending on the intensity of Alpha, Beta, Gamma, and Neutron radations there are deiffrent material you would use. If you use a High Z rated material on a high alpha source you would actualy cause greater amounts of beata and Gamma than you originaly had. since Beta and Gamma penetrate further than alpha (typicaly the thickness of a peice of paper) you cause more harm than good... So calculating Z ratings its better to go with low to high, less dense to more dense when layering that way through compton scatering you dont produce a cascading effect putting out more harmful forms of radiation.....JUST IN CASE YOU GUYS WERE WANTING TO PUT IN THE MR. FUSION BOLT ON FROM BACK TO THE FUTURE II. If you need help with that let me know. Rember LEAD LAST!!!!
Nows time For Sexy times
.........I'm frickin lost???
Registered User
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 4,125
Likes: 4
From: Hawaii
Back to the black box issue..............I'm reading a major automotive publication (forget which one) and they were doing a comparo on some modded cars. The GM entry is a Caddy with upgraded big brakes.
The story pans out that during brake testing they stopped so quickly in one test that an OnStar rep called them up to ask if there was a crash. So yes black boxes do exist in other cars (such as Lotus) and in GM's as well. Big Brother is looking over your shoulder..............
The story pans out that during brake testing they stopped so quickly in one test that an OnStar rep called them up to ask if there was a crash. So yes black boxes do exist in other cars (such as Lotus) and in GM's as well. Big Brother is looking over your shoulder..............
