IIQuickSilverII

iTrader: (13)

If i remember well foreingsodas setup was that the car ran 6 psi and when you turn on meth with the controller, the proefi automatically detects that and automatically changes to a different timing map and boost went to 10 psi....This was set to happen after peak TQ too for added safety.
I think its sensitive to what mix you use too...not sure... Perhaps foreingsoda can comment more on that.

SoundPerformance

Julian, Jason's selection process of ProEFI dealers was primarily structured around the group of advanced AEM tuners that Jason felt were the elite group of stand alone tuners. As with any new product, feedback from the user (tuner) is necessary in the development. Because Jason had a prior relationship with all of these tuners, they were initially selected. This is not to say that the group will not be expanded. Right now because of the cost and complexity of the tuner software, the group of selected tuners will probably remain somewhat small. Within the next few months consumer software will be available that will be packaged with the units allowing the installation shop, or owner to tune their own vehicle. Once this is available I am sure that Jason can work out something with you. Im not sure how you proximity to Turbo trix will affect this...... but when speaking to Jason last night he said that perhaps you could purchase units through Mark.... until the software is available later.

I recently tuned 3 cars with ProEFIs last week and can attest to their "stock like" drivability. 1000RWHP+ cars with large cams starting, driving, idling perfectly. While I have been able to come 'close' to this drivability with other standalones..... I have never been able to get there 100%. As stated by a customer that picked up his car last week: "Did you really put the ProEFI in there?? It drives like stock!!" I actually had to pull back the carpet and prove to him that it was indeed installed. This is the ONLY standalone system that implements adaptive learning like a stock ECU because it IS a stock ECU that finally we have TOTAL control over!! Under all driving conditions the ECU learns and adapts so drivability only gets better as each day goes by!!

The reason why supra's took a while to achieve the insane power levels that they are making now is primarily due to the lack of engine management. Once the AEM EMS became available the HP wars exploded. There is no reason why the same should not happen with the 350Z market. The technology is certainly here to build a daily driver type 1000+ RWHP Z!! It may take the customer base a while to comprehend that this is no longer a dream and can be attained now! Once a few 1000RWHP Zs start popping up, the market should explode as did the supra market. 15 years ago we thought that running more than 25 psi or making 6-700 RWHP was insane and I am sure that the majority of the Z owners are roughly where the supra owners were years ago. It is our job as tuners to educate them that these numbers can be attained realistically and reliably. With ProEFI we are now one step closer to this reality.

rcdash

iTrader: (18)

The only other thing I really like is the ability to control many more injectors with the 128. I wish that feature hadn't been dropped on the 48 unit (esp down to only 4!) because it sets the 128 apart from every other offering. That opens up lots of possibilities - like how about adaptive injection of methanol per cylinder based on knock detection? Or better yet, wire up some EGT or CHT probes and feed them as input to control methanol or water injection on a per cylinder basis. How cool would that be? The 128 box is baller if it meets expectations. I think its worth the $1000 extra if you're going to have add-on sensors anyway, like EGT probes or W/M injection setup.

App6MT

iTrader: (1)

I admit I had not followed the release of the ProEFI and it really has caught my interest. I promise all of my questions are 100% sincere as I'm just trying to get a better understanding of what it is doing and what it offers over the rest. There will be no intentional malicious attacks, just questions that I feel any company should address. And if most people are like me, they are afraid to ask questions on the boards, especially the FI forums. So thank you everyone for bearing with my questions and I hope that they help other people in the future.

What do you guys think about what Jared and Matt are doing at UpRev? Maybe they can chime in (or Rich, you're cool too ). They are using the stock ECU to control everything. While they are still finishing up some kinks, I know first hand that they have control over the ECU and can use it to do whatever they want, including the adaptive learning that is oh-so sought after. What would be the advantage of ProEFI if one were just going for straight tuning (no nitrous, meth, etc) of a FI application? I know they have a built motor running a greddy TT right now so it's on them to prove that their application works. BUT for the time being, lets assume their system works flawlessly.

rcdash

iTrader: (18)

I think the biggest limitation of the stock ECU, even if you have full control over it, is it was not designed for FI. There is no input designed for MAP (boost), and it is less well-adapted in regards to managing FI relevant issues (like heat, EGT, overboost, etc). Resolution is also fine for NA, but I think the 10? load sites would be suboptimal at best for higher boost levels.

SlideFox

Larry, I have been following some of your installs on Supraforums, and all I can say is you do some quality work! ND4SPD(Wes's) Supra and VegasSE's cars are awsome!!

SoundPerformance

Thanks!!

GolfinZ

iTrader: (6)

No kidding, everyone of them looks perfect

rcdash

iTrader: (18)

Sorry to say but this sounds too much like the FCON with restrictions on where you can go to tune.

Perhaps the self-tuning ("adaptive" tuning) was overhyped in the beginning because I think I was (perhaps many others were also) expecting something easy to tune, especially if you had experience on other units. To say it is too complex for Julian to tune right now is not a very encouraging response. But perhaps too much has been disclosed too early in development...

I will suspend further comment until the user software is complete - I don't think it's fair to evaluate at this early stage, particularly if I was thinking of moving from a haltech unit.

Looking forward to future development guys - of the 48 and 128 box. I hope you will keep the end user enthusiast and independent tuner in mind.

SoundPerformance

I agree that as of now it is much like an Fcon with limited tuners. Unfortunately there is nothing we can do about it!! The software to tune these cost us $3000 PER COPY so I doubt many tuner shops want to dish that out!! Just be patient as the consumer software is the #1 priority !!!

Remember it is adaptive tuning, not self tuning. It works just like any factory computer in making small changes daily to ensure perfect drivability. I doubt that the factories throw a computer in a car without any tune and just assume it will tune itself!!

Julian@MRC

iTrader: (28)

This adaptive tunning, please clarify something for me...

Say the car is tuned on a 60degree day, then shut off and restarted in the morning and its 25degrees out at the time... Does this mean the PROEFI will compensate immidiately for the temperature and atmospheric changes? Or does it have to drive a bit and see the long and short term fuel trims?Then make adjustments..
Then say the teperature increases in the day to 80 degrees..
im just trying to decipher in my mind the actuall difference between "adaptive learning" and me setting up Water temp corrections, Air intake corrections, Idle air intake corrections, EGT corrections, and various other correction table I am able to change on the Fcon to compensate both the fuel and timing maps..This is seperate form the actual A/F feedback and Knock feedback i can also set on the Fcons..

I ask this question in all honesty...I keep hearing adaptive learning, but Im just thinking its a fancy term for "atmospheric corrections"..Please expound a bit more in depth for me..

GolfinZ

iTrader: (6)

From the post Jason made 2 pages back; ask him directly on their forums 'We have our own forums, and a website ( www.proefi.com ) that has plenty of information and answers to your questions."

old school 280

Now, ask yourself how does a factory ECM do that?

Julian@MRC

iTrader: (28)

Gee that cleared it up...
From what i know, the factory ECM's would have several maps in them for several octane and knock conditions under closed and opened loop. They would rely on feedback from the AIT, MAF,H20 Temp,02 sensors, and knock sensors to provide the information they needed to be in the correct fueling and timing maps based on the condiditon they were seeing, and amount of airflow and fuel pressure, and determine the VE of the engine at the time...

I can set up an Fcon to do the same exact thing, period..

So tell me, what EXACTLY is "adaptive Learning"???

rcdash

iTrader: (18)

There's virtually no data on that forum and very few users so answers posted there would be of little use to this community, at this point.

Jeez guys, lay off if you can't answer the posted question. The adaptive stuff is another way of compensating for changing conditions, just as correction tables for the FCON are. It's debatable which is better since it all comes down to the software implementation, which is still under constant development for the proEFI.

Now some of the adaptive stuff apparently goes beyond this. For example, Julian, there is reportedly an option to have the unit automatically advance timing (and create a trim table of sorts) until knock is detected, to achieve maximum performance. This is something that could be useful as gas quality improved or decreased. That's pretty cool - I guess, if you want to just run race fuel and have it "adapt" for example. You don't have to worry about your customer switching to the wrong map.

The really exceptional points IMO above other EMS solutions (at the moment) are in the safety and reliability controls with communication over the CAN bus - and the traction control features. Again, it all comes down to the actual software implementation (theory vs reality). The devil is in the details and much is still unknown...

Comparing to the FCON isn't really appropriate yet, since the FCON is a mature product and the proEFI is still in development. Even the Haltech just went with a full v1.0 release recently, with most all of the initially stated features activated. Once the proEFI has done the same, then I think an EMS comparison of user interface, features, tuning ease, adaptability, support (including frequency of updates with new features), access, etc. can be legitimately performed.

By this fall, I think there will be 3 great options for users.

INTENSEPOWER

iTrader: (208)

Julian,

There's a tab on ProEFI's website that details specifically what adaptive learning is:

http://proefi.com/featurearticles_adaptivelearning.php

If the information on this tab doesn't answer your questions thoroughly enough, please let me or Larry know, and we will be happy to reply.

You appear to want answers directly from ProEFI, and ProEFI has a forum specifically to answer questions:

http://proefiforum.forumakers.com/proefi-forums-c1/

Registration is free, and isn't limited to dealers (it's open to the public).

Darren

SoundPerformance

Think of it this way. With the technology of the F-con you can setup startup fuel maps, accel maps, general fuel maps etc and then correct off of them with various sensor inputs. So lets say on a 60 degree day you car runs pretty well and the O2 correction is 2%. Then on a 80 degree day the O2 correction is 4%. The computer always throws fuel out based on the fuel map and then corrects off of it based on the O2 sensor. It does this every time. With adaptive learning, if the ECU sees that the correction in a certain area is 2 or 4% and it actually adjusts the original map so that on the next time you see those conditions, your fuel is perfect and O2 correction will be ZERO!! Same with knock, idle air motor percentage, etc. The computer is constantly updating its own maps so it never makes a mistake (no matter how slight) again. It is the difference between a car running very well, and perfect!!

The way that most standalones do things now is EXACTLY how the factory computers did things in the 1980s. The way ProEFI adapts is exactly the same way current computers in all production cars do things. Cars in the 80s ran pretty well but there is no denying that current cars run much better!!


Hope this helps Julian!

Lar

rcdash

iTrader: (18)

Well you guys are the experts, but I see having an adaptive map as really different in only one way from "real time" correction tables (from a technical standpoint): with adaptive learning, corrections can "weight" sensor readings over time through data aggregation and averaging. Changes to EMS outputs will be smooth and less prone to erratic functioning since outlying data points from sensors will effectively be "smoothed" away.

This ability also means that you don't have to go to your tuner to fix correction tables, which will fix themselves even if not set properly in all cells.

So Julian, if you have a customer from Colorado that comes to you for a tune, when he drives back, you may not have accounted for exactly the right corrections for his local driving conditions. With the proEFI this should not be that big of a deal. I personally think that for most users/customers, it won't make that much difference (not noticeable anyway).

EDIT: So now that I think about this a bit more, I think there is perhaps more potential for safe use of things like closed loop O2 feedback with target AFR, for example. Not sure about the FCON, but with the Haltech, you can create a target AFR map and have the unit figure out the appropriate correction automatically based on a reading from a wideband. If the wideband goes haywire for a split second under boost and you have this activated, it could be a disaster (which is why I use O2 feedback only when NOT under load). With a trim table a sporadic change in sensor reading could (A) be detected since the unit can compare with a weighted average and (B) won't affect the output drastically - but rather permit more gradual ramping up or down of fuel to reach the target. Actually grossly erroneous sensor readings could be accounted for with either system (just limit the correction amount in a correction table) - hmmm...

I asked the Haltech guys about adaptive learning a while back and I know they were considering implementing it, but weren't convinced about it's benefit (given the effort required to implement it). Let's see what Jason comes up with - perhaps it will spur some friendly competition, in the end benefitting this community.

App6MT

iTrader: (1)

So when is the 128 pin going to be available and when are places like Forged Performance and Performance Factory going to offer them?

Shabib67

Yea im hoping forged performance becomes a Pro-EFI dealer and tuner.