Road Warrior

iTrader: (16)

i appreciate that kenk2...but you guys make this sound too easy!

i still think i can get this tuned on the dyno...then see what kind of changes they made and figure it out that way and not have to worry about screwing up anything.

then, down the road...i can fine tune if and when necessary

ACEMAN

iTrader: (29)

If you have the extra money, then Dyno tuning is the way to go. More accurate than street tuning. But, what kind of fun is that

If you like the DIY stuff like alot of us do, then tuning yourself can be alot of fun. And you will learn alot.

Being that your car is NA and not FI you are less likely to hurt your car. The key with tuning is to make small changes and to take your time.

Later
Aceman

Road Warrior

iTrader: (16)

i'd love to do it...but how long does it take? is this not hit or miss on the fly tuning? i should have thought this over better. i could have had this dyno tuned in 1-2 hours tops...and from a professional.

now don't get me wrong either...i am in no way saying your not good at tuning....just that i suck at tuning

i think i can learn more from having someone else do it and go back and see what changes were made from the stock tune, the base map tune, and then the dyno tune. i really don't have the time to play

anyone want to buy a tuner pro

Wired 24/7

iTrader: (2)

You could start by reading the "EMS tuning 101" section of this book:

How to tune and modify engine management systems
author: Hartman

I bought it on the recommendation of another member here and it was a good read. It might not tell you EVERYTHING you want to know, but it is a good place to start. He explains how to methodically go through, start by tuning at idle, then make sure if your EMS fails, it should always fail-safe by failing rich...

Road Warrior

iTrader: (16)

i'm sure its a good read and so is the bible...but i can't part the red sea no matter how many time i read it

Wired 24/7

iTrader: (2)

LOL at least you will understand tuning a little better, that way even if you go to a pro tuner, you'll feel a lot more confident in the work he's doing ...

I can't think of anything scarier than taking your car to a tuner, leaving it there a few hours, then driving off and "trusting" that it's tuned properly

Road Warrior

iTrader: (16)

well you make a good point there....i will take a look at the book...it can't hurt

the only thing scarier is trying to tune yourself and not knowing if its tuned properly

since i am going to have the utec and tuner anyways...i might as well learn how its done.

happy tuning all

Road Warrior

iTrader: (16)

when i finally do get this tuned professionally....i will be happy to post my maps and numbers.

we can then let the gurus pick apart the tune and see if it was worth the money.

next week i should have something for you guys

Road Warrior

iTrader: (16)

wot runs 4th gear

[CODE]
3671 -17.0 3.86 101 80 00 14.23 +22.2 42.4 ECU. +0.0 4.01 12.46
3711 -17.0 4.00 103 70 00 14.51 +22.2 43.6 ECU. +0.0 3.96 12.46
3691 -16.9 3.96 103 80 00 14.65 +23.0 43.8 ECU. +0.0 3.98 12.46
3745 -16.9 4.07 103 80 00 14.64 +21.1 45.1 ECU. +0.0 4.01 12.45
3779 -16.9 4.01 102 80 00 14.57 +21.2 45.4 ECU. +0.0 4.05 12.46
3818 -16.9 4.01 102 80 00 14.71 +21.2 46.3 ECU. +0.0 4.03 12.46
3866 -16.9 4.09 103 80 00 14.81 +22.1 46.5 ECU. +0.0 4.00 12.52
3875 -16.9 4.05 102 80 00 14.79 +22.2 47.0 ECU. +0.0 4.09 12.53
3903 -16.9 4.13 102 80 00 14.86 +22.0 47.8 ECU. +0.0 4.11 12.56
3935 -16.9 4.09 102 80 00 14.72 +22.0 46.9 ECU. +0.0 4.07 12.56
3958 -16.9 4.05 103 80 00 14.81 +22.2 48.2 ECU. +0.0 4.01 12.56
3987 -16.9 4.09 103 80 00 15.14 +22.0 47.9 ECU. +0.0 4.13 12.59
4011 -16.9 4.21 102 80 00 15.01 +22.0 49.3 ECU. +0.0 4.19 12.59
4060 -16.9 4.09 102 80 00 14.78 +22.2 49.2 ECU. +0.0 4.03 12.59
4089 -16.9 4.15 103 80 00 14.99 +22.1 51.5 ECU. +0.0 4.19 12.59
4110 -16.9 4.23 103 80 00 15.27 +22.0 51.6 ECU. +0.0 4.21 12.56
4135 -16.9 4.13 103 80 00 14.98 +22.0 50.4 ECU. +0.0 4.21 12.53
4182 -16.8 4.21 102 80 00 15.43 +21.0 53.1 ECU. +0.0 4.15 12.52
4192 -16.9 4.13 103 80 00 15.29 +21.0 53.0 ECU. +0.0 4.15 12.52
4246 -16.8 4.29 103 80 00 15.38 +21.0 53.1 ECU. +0.0 4.15 12.52
4268 -16.9 4.07 103 80 00 15.24 +20.1 53.9 ECU. +0.0 4.25 12.52
4329 -16.8 4.29 102 80 00 15.86 +17.9 55.5 ECU. +0.0 4.29 12.52
4334 -16.9 4.23 103 80 00 15.69 +18.0 54.3 ECU. +0.0 4.25 12.46
4334 -16.8 4.31 103 80 00 15.87 +19.0 56.4 ECU. +0.0 4.21 12.46
4403 -16.8 4.25 101 80 00 15.74 +18.9 55.9 ECU. +0.0 4.43 12.42
5564 -16.6 4.70 102 70 00 17.28 +20.8 77.9 ECU. +0.0 4.45 12.86
4990 -16.8 4.45 102 70 00 16.60 +21.8 67.2 ECU. +0.0 4.47 12.56
5096 -16.8 4.56 102 80 00 16.00 +21.9 67.5 ECU. +0.0 4.47 12.27
5128 -16.8 4.54 103 90 00 16.09 +21.9 66.7 ECU. +0.0 4.54 12.00
5112 -16.8 4.43 103 90 00 16.13 +22.0 65.7 ECU. +0.0 4.43 11.92
5120 -16.8 4.60 102 90 00 15.86 +21.8 66.5 ECU. +0.0 4.41 11.89
5120 -16.8 4.37 102 90 00 15.99 +20.9 66.8 ECU. +0.0 4.58 11.98
5184 -16.8 4.58 103 90 00 15.59 +20.8 66.1 ECU. +0.0 4.50 12.06
5144 -16.8 4.47 103 90 00 15.94 +21.1 67.3 ECU. +0.0 4.37 12.14
5175 -16.8 4.45 102 90 00 16.22 +21.0 67.2 ECU. +0.0 4.60 12.18
5175 -16.8 4.56 102 90 00 16.03 +20.7 66.9 ECU. +0.0 4.49 12.21
5192 -16.8 4.45 103 90 00 15.71 +20.8 67.1 ECU. +0.0 4.39 12.18
5208 -16.8 4.41 103 90 00 15.92 +20.8 68.3 ECU. +0.0 4.47 12.17
5200 -16.8 4.49 102 90 00 15.86 +20.8 67.7 ECU. +0.0 4.54 12.14
5216 -16.8 4.52 102 90 00 15.90 +20.8 68.1 ECU. +0.0 4.56 12.17
5249 -16.8 4.50 103 90 00 16.04 +19.7 67.6 ECU. +0.0 4.62 12.18
5257 -16.8 4.60 103 90 00 16.36 +19.7 68.8 ECU. +0.0 4.54 12.17
5249 -16.8 4.54 102 90 00 15.97 +19.7 68.8 ECU. +0.0 4.49 12.21
5257 -16.8 4.39 102 90 00 16.13 +19.7 66.9 ECU. +0.0 4.47 12.14
5241 -16.8 4.41 103 90 00 16.28 +19.7 69.0 ECU. +0.0 4.45 12.11
5291 -16.8 4.50 103 90 00 16.22 +19.7 68.1 ECU. +0.0 4.60 12.06
5265 -16.8 4.60 103 90 00 16.25 +19.6 69.2 ECU. +0.0 4.60 12.05
5291 -16.8 4.49 102 90 00 16.02 +19.7 69.6 ECU. +0.0 4.41 12.06
5307 -16.8 4.56 102 90 00 16.00 +19.7 72.4 ECU. +0.0 4.62 12.06
5333 -16.8 4.60 103 90 00 16.02 +20.7 70.4 ECU. +0.0 4.58 12.09
5367 -16.8 4.50 103 90 00 16.17 +20.8 71.9 ECU. +0.0 4.64 12.06
5367 -16.8 4.52 102 90 00 16.42 +20.8 69.3 ECU. +0.0 4.50 12.06
4990 -16.8 4.41 100 90 00 16.68 +22.8 67.8 ECU. +0.0 4.50 12.17
5027 -16.8 4.33 102 90 00 15.95 +21.7 64.9 ECU. +0.0 4.49 12.11
5081 -16.8 4.41 103 80 00 16.38 +21.8 66.2 ECU. +0.0 4.41 12.09
5104 -16.8 4.54 102 80 00 16.29 +21.8 68.4 ECU. +0.0 4.47 12.05
[CODE]

SmokyTyrz

AFR is looking much better, but I don't think the whole log is displayed.

Road Warrior

iTrader: (16)

i still haven't done anything...just wanted to post up wot runs. this is using the base map intake/exhaust.

is that the main goal though...getting the a/f set throughout the powerband?

how would you know when to add or subtract timing?

SmokyTyrz

Timing is much more of a black art. I suggest you do some google research, going back to first understanding how mechanical distributors work, and then work up to modern ignition systems.

You WILL need a dyno to tune your timing. As I mentioned in my earlier posts in other threads, the goal with tuning timing is, in a nutshell to find that "sweet spot" between max power output and knock.

Imagine that your timing advance range (going from less advance to more advance) has 3 sub-ranges.

The first sub range (eg. 18-22 deg) is where you progressively make more power.

The second sub-range (eg. 22-25 deg) is where you no longer make more power, but do not knock.

The third sub-range (eg. 25-30 deg) is where you begin to make knock.

Note those timings are just examples, and not meant to be used as a measuring stick.

So you're goal, once on the dyno, is to tune your advance until you stop making power, and then back off a degree or two. This method should typically put you into the "sweet spot" of making the most power you can and still maintain reliability and avoid knock.

Of course, as climate conditions change (eg. when it gets very hot in the summer) you may need to back the timing off a little further. The more aggressive your timing is, then that is more often you will need to adjust your map to compensate for changing conditions. The less aggressive your timing is, then that means your map will be safer in a wider variety of conditions.

Main point is when dyno tuning to understand that the second range, where you make no more power, is a place you want to avoid. At least as a novice tuner. Use this method and you can be assured that you are extracting what you paid for from you mods.

Don't forget that after tuning timing you will likely want to revisit AFR to ensure the timing adjustments didn't cause the AFR to drift. Then after tuning AFR you make sure the timing is still behaving properly, and so on. Eventually you will strike a balance.

Pro tuners should chime in with other tips, as I am just a novice myself.

Road Warrior

iTrader: (16)

cool...i appreciate the info

i am having the car dyno tuned tomorrow...so at least i will have some knowledge going in and be able to watch the progress and ask questions. when i asked the tuner about the timing, he pretty much said the same thing you did...he will adjust if necessary. the shop has a lot of experience with the utec and have done some z's already.

i am excited and a little nervous at the same time not knowing what to expect. i hope to gain at least 20 hp...but i realize that is shooting high. based on my last dyno, i only put down 240 hp with headers, exhaust, plenum and intake. with the base map from utec, the car ran much stronger so i know there is power to be made...just how much is the question.

i will definately post a log after the tune for review on the board...and share the map if anyone is interested.

of course, i do not want to take any responsibility for my map destroying someone else's motor.

again, thanks for your input...it has been very helpful.

Kenk2

iTrader: (7)

Awesome, cant wait to see the results! You shouldnt post the map as that could damage someone elses vehicle, what you should do is post a log just like you did in an earlier post. That would be 1000 times better than posting the map. After they tune, do a run in 4th, and log from 2500 RPM to rev limiter.. That would be great!

Road Warrior

iTrader: (16)

well its tuned. i dyno'd 223 when i got there as a baseline...don't know why this was such a dramatic change from my last dyno of 240 but it is what it is. the final dyno i put down 243 so i guess i met my goal...but still disappointing when you look at the "number" itself.

what i am happy with, is that the car pulls throughout the entire powerband now and feels much stronger. we had some significant dips in our baseline runs and those were smoothed out. he kept the af right around 13 constant and that should show when i do some logging. we did not do any timing changes as he did not feel it was necessary since there was no knock detected. i made considerably more torque as well and overall i am satisfied.

i was able to work with the tuner side by side and basically learned by watching and he was happy that i wanted to know what he was doing so i was fortunate in that regard. i know i can tune this on my own now that i have seen it done...but there is no need until i make some changes to the car. it really isn't that hard...but for me translating from a book to hands on is hard for me to grasp.

i want to change the intake to a jwt pop charger, and get the lower plenum. i could take his maps, do some logging and make some changes...or i could just take it back and he could knock it out in about 30 minutes on the dyno.

i was planning to do some logging, but by the time i got done it was about 4:30 pm...not a good time to be on the roads. i hope to get some logs by the weekend.

Road Warrior

iTrader: (16)

that all makes sense to me now aceman...thanks for the info

SmokyTyrz

Can't wait to see the logs! And if you would, please email them to me at smokeytirez@gmail.com. If you refer to my other thread you will see I am hosting a data collection towards some research to determine if it is possible to automate the baseline Fuel map tuning (thus making it easier to get a base fuel map running).

The improvements are on-par with what you should expect from the UTEC. 20hp gain is good!

What year is your car, and what are your mods?

Also, Road Warrior, I would appreciate it if you could email me your pro-tuned maps as well. I do not plan to use them. This is also for my research (and a little education).

Thx, and congrats!
-Smoky

Kenk2

iTrader: (7)

It is tough to understand when you dont have it in front of you where you can manually enter in the info.

Glad you got her tuned and/ also learned how to do it from a Pro. Get some logs posted so we can see your A/F.. Timing is tricky but it can give you a considerable increase in horsepower..

Road Warrior

iTrader: (16)

my question to the tuners/gurus...did you have to make any timing changes when you tuned your cars?

if so, how did you know where to make them?

also, my mods are headers, cats, exhaust, intake and plenum

thanks

Kenk2

iTrader: (7)

If you are going to advance the timing this is what you 'can' do as it is what I did.. There might be other ways..

I logged 4 runs and looked at the timing and basically averaged them out.. The timing for each run isnt going to be the same, maybe a degree off at the most.. At each rpm range just add .5 at a time until you start NOT making more power, or start to knock. Your not going to make more power by advancing more than +2 over stock timing with 0 knock.. So right around +2 over your STOCK timing is where you want to be.. You will also hvae to keep an eye on your A/F as that will change too... Easiest way to do the timing is on the dyno because you can see where your making the most power.. I have yet to do the dyno but my cars timing is advanced +2 in most areas, just before I start knocking.. I need to get to the dyno..