Logging AFR and RPMs with Innovate or other?
07-10-2007, 09:02 AM
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Logging AFR and RPMs with Innovate or other?
Okay, so I am in the process of modding my Z for NA. I have full bolt-ons and I am ready for a tune. However, I was trying to avoid UTEC simply because I don't trust the performance shops around here that would be tuning my car. I came across the new Osiris cable by UpRev and it looked like my answer to my problem. However, upon further research I realized that I had an '04 and not an 04.5 for this reason I cannot log AFR and RPMs using the Osiris cable. I was told by UpRev that I would need aftermarket hardware which had the ability to log both AFR and RPMs together. This proved to be a confusing issue and I am completely lost at this point.
It began with searching for a good wideband. All sources pointed to Innovate being the best wideband for the money. I looked through the various products and found what I thought to be exactly what I needed. I posted on the Innovate forums asking if the product I was researching could in fact log RPMs with AFR. I was told that it could and to read the manual (which happens to be some 13+ pages long in PDF format) So, I skimmed the manual and read about the RPM logging etc. All it did was confuse me. I asked on the same post if I would need any extra sensors and I was told to read the manual again. Awesome, well the manual does not show any suggestions or requirements for extra sensors, so I thought I was good to go. So, this morning I talk to Sharif @ Forged Performance about purchasing the LC1+ kit (http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/x...9&cat=0&page=1) that Innovate makes. He tells me that I will need an adapter/pickup to log RPMs. I look through the Innovate site and find these http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/x...cat=250&page=2 and http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/x...cat=250&page=2
Now I am even MORE confused. Both of these products state products they work with. Both the LC1+ kit and SSI-4 module(which comes in the LC1+ kit) are not on the list. So do I need it or do I not need it? I have NO IDEA. However, it dawned on me that even after all my searching on my350z I still have yet to come across one member using Innovate products to log RPM with AFR. So, this is my call to everyone who logs. Do any of you use Innovate? Do any of you have the capability to log AFR and RPM without using the Innovate products. If you have a different product please tell me what you are using so I can start researching something else. I am confused to all hell, I need some HELP!
Thanks,
-Chris
It began with searching for a good wideband. All sources pointed to Innovate being the best wideband for the money. I looked through the various products and found what I thought to be exactly what I needed. I posted on the Innovate forums asking if the product I was researching could in fact log RPMs with AFR. I was told that it could and to read the manual (which happens to be some 13+ pages long in PDF format) So, I skimmed the manual and read about the RPM logging etc. All it did was confuse me. I asked on the same post if I would need any extra sensors and I was told to read the manual again. Awesome, well the manual does not show any suggestions or requirements for extra sensors, so I thought I was good to go. So, this morning I talk to Sharif @ Forged Performance about purchasing the LC1+ kit (http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/x...9&cat=0&page=1) that Innovate makes. He tells me that I will need an adapter/pickup to log RPMs. I look through the Innovate site and find these http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/x...cat=250&page=2 and http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/x...cat=250&page=2
Now I am even MORE confused. Both of these products state products they work with. Both the LC1+ kit and SSI-4 module(which comes in the LC1+ kit) are not on the list. So do I need it or do I not need it? I have NO IDEA. However, it dawned on me that even after all my searching on my350z I still have yet to come across one member using Innovate products to log RPM with AFR. So, this is my call to everyone who logs. Do any of you use Innovate? Do any of you have the capability to log AFR and RPM without using the Innovate products. If you have a different product please tell me what you are using so I can start researching something else. I am confused to all hell, I need some HELP!
Thanks,
-Chris
07-10-2007, 06:03 PM
#3
I'd call up Innovate on the phone, they have pretty good tech support (not sure about their pre-sales support).
I have the LC-1 in my N/A 2003 350Z for logging A/F and it works fine for that. The install was a pain, but after it was all said and done, it's working out nicely. I'm running an Uprev reflash now with map switching and it's cool to be able to keep an eye on the A/F ratios. But it wasn't necessary for my tuning - when Jared @ uprev tuned my car, he used their tailpipe O2 sensor, and everything went to the dyno computer readout (RPM, A/F, and HP/torque).
I know that Cipher from uprev logs RPMs straight from the ECU, but it doesn't log A/F from an LC-1 yet.
I have the LC-1 in my N/A 2003 350Z for logging A/F and it works fine for that. The install was a pain, but after it was all said and done, it's working out nicely. I'm running an Uprev reflash now with map switching and it's cool to be able to keep an eye on the A/F ratios. But it wasn't necessary for my tuning - when Jared @ uprev tuned my car, he used their tailpipe O2 sensor, and everything went to the dyno computer readout (RPM, A/F, and HP/torque).
I know that Cipher from uprev logs RPMs straight from the ECU, but it doesn't log A/F from an LC-1 yet.
07-10-2007, 06:12 PM
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Originally Posted by mthreat
I'd call up Innovate on the phone, they have pretty good tech support (not sure about their pre-sales support).
I have the LC-1 in my N/A 2003 350Z for logging A/F and it works fine for that. The install was a pain, but after it was all said and done, it's working out nicely. I'm running an Uprev reflash now with map switching and it's cool to be able to keep an eye on the A/F ratios. But it wasn't necessary for my tuning - when Jared @ uprev tuned my car, he used their tailpipe O2 sensor, and everything went to the dyno computer readout (RPM, A/F, and HP/torque).
I know that Cipher from uprev logs RPMs straight from the ECU, but it doesn't log A/F from an LC-1 yet.
I have the LC-1 in my N/A 2003 350Z for logging A/F and it works fine for that. The install was a pain, but after it was all said and done, it's working out nicely. I'm running an Uprev reflash now with map switching and it's cool to be able to keep an eye on the A/F ratios. But it wasn't necessary for my tuning - when Jared @ uprev tuned my car, he used their tailpipe O2 sensor, and everything went to the dyno computer readout (RPM, A/F, and HP/torque).
I know that Cipher from uprev logs RPMs straight from the ECU, but it doesn't log A/F from an LC-1 yet.
07-10-2007, 07:01 PM
#5
Originally Posted by Conceyted
Awesome, thank you. Yea I was sort of planning on logging my RPMs with AFR because I dont have the widebands. I wasn't planning on driving the 8 hours to Austin to have him dyno tune it so I was going to just send him my logs and have him tune me off that. Seemed like a great idea at the time but now it's seeming like it's going to be more trouble than its worth.
Just kidding, I wouldn't speed too much on I-10... DPS troopers are scumbags.
07-14-2007, 06:03 PM
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Originally Posted by mthreat
I'd call up Innovate on the phone, they have pretty good tech support (not sure about their pre-sales support).
I have the LC-1 in my N/A 2003 350Z for logging A/F and it works fine for that. The install was a pain, but after it was all said and done, it's working out nicely. I'm running an Uprev reflash now with map switching and it's cool to be able to keep an eye on the A/F ratios. But it wasn't necessary for my tuning - when Jared @ uprev tuned my car, he used their tailpipe O2 sensor, and everything went to the dyno computer readout (RPM, A/F, and HP/torque).
I know that Cipher from uprev logs RPMs straight from the ECU, but it doesn't log A/F from an LC-1 yet.
I have the LC-1 in my N/A 2003 350Z for logging A/F and it works fine for that. The install was a pain, but after it was all said and done, it's working out nicely. I'm running an Uprev reflash now with map switching and it's cool to be able to keep an eye on the A/F ratios. But it wasn't necessary for my tuning - when Jared @ uprev tuned my car, he used their tailpipe O2 sensor, and everything went to the dyno computer readout (RPM, A/F, and HP/torque).
I know that Cipher from uprev logs RPMs straight from the ECU, but it doesn't log A/F from an LC-1 yet.
i could be wrong but I would think so far downstream the a/f might still get leaner than it actually is after traveling so far.
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07-14-2007, 06:26 PM
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Originally Posted by MDeezy
wouldnt you get a leaner A/F reading by the tail piper sniffer? I would think the A/F ratio would get leaner after its passed thru the cat. Or do you have test pipes installed?
i could be wrong but I would think so far downstream the a/f might still get leaner than it actually is after traveling so far.
i could be wrong but I would think so far downstream the a/f might still get leaner than it actually is after traveling so far.
07-14-2007, 09:05 PM
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Originally Posted by mthreat
I have the LC-1 in my N/A 2003 350Z for logging A/F and it works fine for that. The install was a pain, but after it was all said and done, it's working out nicely.
Are you logging the RPM and the Air/Fuel ratio?
You must be using something in addition to the gauge and the sensor. Where do you store the data?
07-14-2007, 09:35 PM
#10
Originally Posted by __jb
Isn't this exactly what Conceyted is wanting to do?
Are you logging the RPM and the Air/Fuel ratio?
You must be using something in addition to the gauge and the sensor. Where do you store the data?
Are you logging the RPM and the Air/Fuel ratio?
You must be using something in addition to the gauge and the sensor. Where do you store the data?
Really I shouldn't say 'logging', I normally don't log, I just have the guage up, and I'm about to put it away.. a little too much bling for me.
07-15-2007, 06:37 AM
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I spoke with Jared(of UpRev) about the future of the logging software. He tells me that further down the line they will be expanding the software to incorporate an outside wideband. That means that the serial cable that comes with the lc-1 will be able to be used to log afr while your cipher logs the rest and it will all be displayed on one chart. This is exactly what I am wanting to do. However, for now I have decided to wait it out. Fine tuning isn't all that important for me, I just saw it as a plus. For now I will be running a base osiris map. When/if the wideband feature comes out one day, it will be a free update (iirc) and I will simply have to buy myself a wideband
07-15-2007, 06:45 AM
#12
Originally Posted by Conceyted
Okay, so I am in the process of modding my Z for NA. I have full bolt-ons and I am ready for a tune. However, I was trying to avoid UTEC simply because I don't trust the performance shops around here that would be tuning my car. I came across the new Osiris cable by UpRev and it looked like my answer to my problem. However, upon further research I realized that I had an '04 and not an 04.5 for this reason I cannot log AFR and RPMs using the Osiris cable. I was told by UpRev that I would need aftermarket hardware which had the ability to log both AFR and RPMs together. This proved to be a confusing issue and I am completely lost at this point.
It began with searching for a good wideband. All sources pointed to Innovate being the best wideband for the money. I looked through the various products and found what I thought to be exactly what I needed. I posted on the Innovate forums asking if the product I was researching could in fact log RPMs with AFR. I was told that it could and to read the manual (which happens to be some 13+ pages long in PDF format) So, I skimmed the manual and read about the RPM logging etc. All it did was confuse me. I asked on the same post if I would need any extra sensors and I was told to read the manual again. Awesome, well the manual does not show any suggestions or requirements for extra sensors, so I thought I was good to go. So, this morning I talk to Sharif @ Forged Performance about purchasing the LC1+ kit (http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/x...9&cat=0&page=1) that Innovate makes. He tells me that I will need an adapter/pickup to log RPMs. I look through the Innovate site and find these http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/x...cat=250&page=2 and http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/x...cat=250&page=2
Now I am even MORE confused. Both of these products state products they work with. Both the LC1+ kit and SSI-4 module(which comes in the LC1+ kit) are not on the list. So do I need it or do I not need it? I have NO IDEA. However, it dawned on me that even after all my searching on my350z I still have yet to come across one member using Innovate products to log RPM with AFR. So, this is my call to everyone who logs. Do any of you use Innovate? Do any of you have the capability to log AFR and RPM without using the Innovate products. If you have a different product please tell me what you are using so I can start researching something else. I am confused to all hell, I need some HELP!
Thanks,
-Chris
It began with searching for a good wideband. All sources pointed to Innovate being the best wideband for the money. I looked through the various products and found what I thought to be exactly what I needed. I posted on the Innovate forums asking if the product I was researching could in fact log RPMs with AFR. I was told that it could and to read the manual (which happens to be some 13+ pages long in PDF format) So, I skimmed the manual and read about the RPM logging etc. All it did was confuse me. I asked on the same post if I would need any extra sensors and I was told to read the manual again. Awesome, well the manual does not show any suggestions or requirements for extra sensors, so I thought I was good to go. So, this morning I talk to Sharif @ Forged Performance about purchasing the LC1+ kit (http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/x...9&cat=0&page=1) that Innovate makes. He tells me that I will need an adapter/pickup to log RPMs. I look through the Innovate site and find these http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/x...cat=250&page=2 and http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/x...cat=250&page=2
Now I am even MORE confused. Both of these products state products they work with. Both the LC1+ kit and SSI-4 module(which comes in the LC1+ kit) are not on the list. So do I need it or do I not need it? I have NO IDEA. However, it dawned on me that even after all my searching on my350z I still have yet to come across one member using Innovate products to log RPM with AFR. So, this is my call to everyone who logs. Do any of you use Innovate? Do any of you have the capability to log AFR and RPM without using the Innovate products. If you have a different product please tell me what you are using so I can start researching something else. I am confused to all hell, I need some HELP!
Thanks,
-Chris
Keep me updated and I will do some research of my own, I have an 03 touring , so I am in the same boat you are. Its all new to me too, just trying to learn as I go. I wish someone smart on here would write something up for all of us newbies to this stuff, AFR,ecu flashes, etc.
07-15-2007, 12:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Conceyted
I spoke with Jared(of UpRev) about the future of the logging software. He tells me that further down the line they will be expanding the software to incorporate an outside wideband. That means that the serial cable that comes with the lc-1 will be able to be used to log afr while your cipher logs the rest and it will all be displayed on one chart. This is exactly what I am wanting to do. However, for now I have decided to wait it out. Fine tuning isn't all that important for me, I just saw it as a plus. For now I will be running a base osiris map. When/if the wideband feature comes out one day, it will be a free update (iirc) and I will simply have to buy myself a wideband
Might be worth waiting to buy a wide band sensor until we find out which one Cipher will be able to monitor.
07-15-2007, 02:33 PM
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Originally Posted by __jb
Wow, that's good news.
Might be worth waiting to buy a wide band sensor until we find out which one Cipher will be able to monitor.
Might be worth waiting to buy a wide band sensor until we find out which one Cipher will be able to monitor.
07-16-2007, 12:47 PM
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Looking at the info given I would say you don't need anything extra.
On the site, for the LC-1 it says: All channels can be configured for external 0-5V or frequency.
The tach signal is simply a frequency signal. It doesn't give detailed information about setting up the logging information, but I'm guessing the laptop does the scaling, so it should be pretty simply to connect the RPM input to a fuel injector and log away, with no extra parts. I've never done this, but according to their description it should work.
On the site, for the LC-1 it says: All channels can be configured for external 0-5V or frequency.
The tach signal is simply a frequency signal. It doesn't give detailed information about setting up the logging information, but I'm guessing the laptop does the scaling, so it should be pretty simply to connect the RPM input to a fuel injector and log away, with no extra parts. I've never done this, but according to their description it should work.
08-17-2007, 07:35 AM
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I have the same situation here. I just wonder should I get Innovate wideband + LC1 ???or Dual Channel Wideband UEGO Controller Module 30-2300 $599.37 to monitor/log the RPM and the Air/Fuel ratio?
Should have wait a couple more months for the 04.5 with wideband.
Osiris
Should have wait a couple more months for the 04.5 with wideband.
Osiris
08-17-2007, 08:41 AM
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The biggest obstacle for me is figuring out how to get an RPM signal from our cars. I still have yet to have someone explain it or help me figure it out. I have the wideband part down, but I wish someone just made a product that hooked into our vehicle and logged RPM and AFR together so I could be done with this mess.
08-17-2007, 09:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Conceyted
Okay, so I am in the process of modding my Z for NA. I have full bolt-ons and I am ready for a tune. However, I was trying to avoid UTEC simply because I don't trust the performance shops around here that would be tuning my car. I came across the new Osiris cable by UpRev and it looked like my answer to my problem. However, upon further research I realized that I had an '04 and not an 04.5 for this reason I cannot log AFR and RPMs using the Osiris cable. I was told by UpRev that I would need aftermarket hardware which had the ability to log both AFR and RPMs together. This proved to be a confusing issue and I am completely lost at this point.
It began with searching for a good wideband. All sources pointed to Innovate being the best wideband for the money. I looked through the various products and found what I thought to be exactly what I needed. I posted on the Innovate forums asking if the product I was researching could in fact log RPMs with AFR. I was told that it could and to read the manual (which happens to be some 13+ pages long in PDF format) So, I skimmed the manual and read about the RPM logging etc. All it did was confuse me. I asked on the same post if I would need any extra sensors and I was told to read the manual again. Awesome, well the manual does not show any suggestions or requirements for extra sensors, so I thought I was good to go. So, this morning I talk to Sharif @ Forged Performance about purchasing the LC1+ kit (http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/x...9&cat=0&page=1) that Innovate makes. He tells me that I will need an adapter/pickup to log RPMs. I look through the Innovate site and find these http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/x...cat=250&page=2 and http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/x...cat=250&page=2
Now I am even MORE confused. Both of these products state products they work with. Both the LC1+ kit and SSI-4 module(which comes in the LC1+ kit) are not on the list. So do I need it or do I not need it? I have NO IDEA. However, it dawned on me that even after all my searching on my350z I still have yet to come across one member using Innovate products to log RPM with AFR. So, this is my call to everyone who logs. Do any of you use Innovate? Do any of you have the capability to log AFR and RPM without using the Innovate products. If you have a different product please tell me what you are using so I can start researching something else. I am confused to all hell, I need some HELP!
Thanks,
-Chris
It began with searching for a good wideband. All sources pointed to Innovate being the best wideband for the money. I looked through the various products and found what I thought to be exactly what I needed. I posted on the Innovate forums asking if the product I was researching could in fact log RPMs with AFR. I was told that it could and to read the manual (which happens to be some 13+ pages long in PDF format) So, I skimmed the manual and read about the RPM logging etc. All it did was confuse me. I asked on the same post if I would need any extra sensors and I was told to read the manual again. Awesome, well the manual does not show any suggestions or requirements for extra sensors, so I thought I was good to go. So, this morning I talk to Sharif @ Forged Performance about purchasing the LC1+ kit (http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/x...9&cat=0&page=1) that Innovate makes. He tells me that I will need an adapter/pickup to log RPMs. I look through the Innovate site and find these http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/x...cat=250&page=2 and http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/x...cat=250&page=2
Now I am even MORE confused. Both of these products state products they work with. Both the LC1+ kit and SSI-4 module(which comes in the LC1+ kit) are not on the list. So do I need it or do I not need it? I have NO IDEA. However, it dawned on me that even after all my searching on my350z I still have yet to come across one member using Innovate products to log RPM with AFR. So, this is my call to everyone who logs. Do any of you use Innovate? Do any of you have the capability to log AFR and RPM without using the Innovate products. If you have a different product please tell me what you are using so I can start researching something else. I am confused to all hell, I need some HELP!
Thanks,
-Chris
Your best bet would be Utec and TXS tuner wideband. That way you can logg rpm and AFR and other readings all with the utec and make changes accordingly.
Last edited by chris'smax; 08-17-2007 at 09:50 AM.
08-17-2007, 11:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Conceyted
The biggest obstacle for me is figuring out how to get an RPM signal from our cars. I still have yet to have someone explain it or help me figure it out. I have the wideband part down, but I wish someone just made a product that hooked into our vehicle and logged RPM and AFR together so I could be done with this mess.
you tap into the rpm signal wire that leads to the ecu. BAM your done
06-10-2010, 08:11 AM
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Since I have recently come across a similar issue I thought I would revive this thread.
Car: 2008 350Z VQ35HR 6 speed Enthusiast model
Current mods include:
AAM test pipes
AEM intake
Greddy dual exhaust
Spec clutch
Technosquare ECU flash
After the TS flash AFRs were still in the low 11:1 range above 5000rpm. With no way to alter this I recently purchased the Osiris/Cipher system. I found the Uprev provided user guide, and web site information a little ambiguous and short on detail. Therefore via a series of e-mails as no one would pick up the phone there and there was never a return call, I inquired about several things.
1: Accuracy of the factory wide band O2 sensors
2: Wide band O2 sensor calibration within Cipher, as this is recommended in the users guide.
Uprevs response:
“The factory WB sensors are very accurate... our calibration table for them on the other hand may not be so accurate. We've actually only tuned one of the tables off of an external sensor to get a 100% accurate calibration. The others are based off of the tables listed in the service manuals, so it's just kind of an eyeball calibration. It's good enough for some eTune tweaks, but an aftermarket sensor is probably going to get you better readings.”
With this information I asked the following:
So if an aftermarket O2 sensor is preferred how does one wire it in to read directly to Cipher?
Response:
“You don't. Our developer is working on adding external WB logging support, but it's not ready yet and I don't know when it will be since he's totally swamped with other projects. You need a WB that can log AFR and RPM so that you can look at the logs to see where you need to richen up or lean out.”
At this I am back to using my Innovate LM-1, LM3-A and the log-works software. This is not really a problem but it is more work to install, set up, and calibrate. It also makes one wonder how accurate anyone’s actual AFR ratios are when logging with the uncalibrated factory sensors within Cipher.
Too bad you can’t purchase the Osiris tuner system without Cipher and save the $200. Of course I am sure this will make all wonder about spending $50 on and E-tune.
Car: 2008 350Z VQ35HR 6 speed Enthusiast model
Current mods include:
AAM test pipes
AEM intake
Greddy dual exhaust
Spec clutch
Technosquare ECU flash
After the TS flash AFRs were still in the low 11:1 range above 5000rpm. With no way to alter this I recently purchased the Osiris/Cipher system. I found the Uprev provided user guide, and web site information a little ambiguous and short on detail. Therefore via a series of e-mails as no one would pick up the phone there and there was never a return call, I inquired about several things.
1: Accuracy of the factory wide band O2 sensors
2: Wide band O2 sensor calibration within Cipher, as this is recommended in the users guide.
Uprevs response:
“The factory WB sensors are very accurate... our calibration table for them on the other hand may not be so accurate. We've actually only tuned one of the tables off of an external sensor to get a 100% accurate calibration. The others are based off of the tables listed in the service manuals, so it's just kind of an eyeball calibration. It's good enough for some eTune tweaks, but an aftermarket sensor is probably going to get you better readings.”
With this information I asked the following:
So if an aftermarket O2 sensor is preferred how does one wire it in to read directly to Cipher?
Response:
“You don't. Our developer is working on adding external WB logging support, but it's not ready yet and I don't know when it will be since he's totally swamped with other projects. You need a WB that can log AFR and RPM so that you can look at the logs to see where you need to richen up or lean out.”
At this I am back to using my Innovate LM-1, LM3-A and the log-works software. This is not really a problem but it is more work to install, set up, and calibrate. It also makes one wonder how accurate anyone’s actual AFR ratios are when logging with the uncalibrated factory sensors within Cipher.
Too bad you can’t purchase the Osiris tuner system without Cipher and save the $200. Of course I am sure this will make all wonder about spending $50 on and E-tune.