osinrider04

iTrader: (6)

Wanted to place this in the tuning section because it is in regards to which is better to run when being FI and tuned. A friend of mine has told me that running E 85 is better than meth injection. I want to get a feel for the forum's pov. Share your thoughts.

The point/benefit of E85 is that while although you may need to run more on E 85 decreasing your mpg, the gas is cheaper so the two have a neutralizing effect. Also, E 85 can supposidely range the equivalent of 100-105 octane rating. It has the same cooling effect as alcohol/methanol as well. There may need to be bigger fuel lines, but he says people run stock lines with aftermarket fuel pressure regulator and walboro 255 pump.

on the flip side methanol will cool the air and therefore raise the effective octane rating. His point against meth is that if your car is tuned specifically to be running and meth injection and some part of that system fails you can do serious damage to your engine.

Running E 85 you wouldn't have to worry about detonation as much either. They both seem to have their advantages and disadvantages. Anyone have any experience with the two?

Thanks

UpRev

iTrader: (5)

Try finding E85 half way through a trip cross town. E85 requires upgraded fuel lines, injectors, pumps, gaskets/seals. It is way more harsh on your fuel system than regular gas.

Generally you set a tune to run with and without methanol, or your meth injection kit will come with some device to retard/advance timing. You run out of methanol and you can still make your trip.

Also, you're doing this to get more power safely out of your motor, but with E85 you're constantly running on a more ragged edge. Will your motor last longer with spurts of higher power adding stress to its components, or will it last longer with constant higher power adding stress?

If you're running a FI system and you're properly tuned, I would suggest the Meth Injection as you can set it up to only be used on the rare occasion that you're full throttle and high boost. Under low boost driving around town you won't need the Meth and it will last quite a while, and you'll be able to find your gas anywhere.

osinrider04

iTrader: (6)

Do you think that the cost of everything to run E 85 is more than the cost to buy/run a meth setup? The only reason I ask is because when I go FI I will do one or the other to hopefully increase my reliability and decrease stress. I know there are 4 stations nearby me that sell E 85 actually. The point that was trying to be made by my friend is that running E85 is less detrimental than a meth injection set up. You think there is any truth in that?

UpRev

iTrader: (5)

Not really. Maybe a few years ago. The new pumps they use and the controllers for water and meth injection are so high quality (from reputable manufacturers anyway) that they make excellent choices. E85 is great as long as your fuel system supports it, and you can run large enough injectors, and you have places local to you that sell it.

The major downfall to E85 on a daily driver car is, will it be available everywhere you go? You take off across country or just to go visit auntie Rose, will there be gas stations that have it? If not you're kinda screwed because your car is tuned to run it. You can't just toss 93 octane in the tank and go. Unless you have a separate tune for E85 and 93 Octane.*

Meth/Water injection is easy, cheap, reliable. You're not always racing around, and it's good insurance against damage while adding a bit more power.

Both of them are good when you plan out your build and you make sure you do them right. I'd personally side with Meth injection on a daily driver. On a full race car, I would consider going E85 because the fuel cost and stability, plus you can always toss more fuel into your jugs before you get to the track.

*note: you can't switch from E85 to race gas, you'd have to have two different tunes for that also. Octanes are similar, but flow rates are totally different.

osinrider04

iTrader: (6)

This is what he says: "I think it's just the general consensus of a certain tuner crowd. DSM and some honda forums are crazy about E85. The whole concern about it eating up gaskets, seals, and injectors is rooted in the fact that methanol and ethanol are corrosive to a certain kind of rubber that stopped being made in the 80s. It might be corrosive to aluminum too. This is a little overrated though because ethanol is a lot less corrosive than methanol, and the 15 percent gasoline helps with the issue. When it first came around, people were doing full out upgrades to their fuel system... new fuel lines from the tank to the rail, new fuel rails, seals that will withstand methanol/ethanol and whatnot. Then people started just running it without any out of the ordinary upgrades other than really big injectors and high flow pump. Apparently this hasn't caused any problems, or they have at least not popped up on the forums.

You're deffinitely not running on the ragged edge with E85 too.. i don't know where that came from. If you're running on the ragged edge, it's because you're putting out more power. No different than safely running a high horsepower setup on 93 octane that puts out the same power. It's such a knock resistant fuel that I would say you're much safer running it than other fuels when you're FI.

And constant higher power? If both gasoline and E85 are tuned to their stochiometric ratios under cruise and idle, they're putting out the same amount of power. The only reason E85 allows you to make more power is because its knock resistance and added cooling effect (similar to the cooling effect methanol injection provides). The power increase over stock comes from the added boost and timing... not the fuel itself.

Methanol injection setups aren't fail safe either. If the controller has timing control in it that's activated by a flow sensor and your pump fails at say wot 6000 rpm. By the time the controller is able to adjust your ignition timing to react to the input triggering it to adjust, your engine has gone through so many revolutions... enough to cause detonation and possibly mess things up.

With E85, if you have a tuning setup where you can switch between multiple maps, you're fine. Say you're going on a trip or something... you get out your laptop and load the 93 octane map with lower timing and about 30% fuel taken out across the board. There's also a possibility, if there are enough inputs to the ecu to run a setup with a GM fuel composition sensor. GM makes these sensors that have varying output depending on how much ethanol is in the fuel you're using. From that, some people that are sly with programming and whatnot (I've only heard of this being implemented with megasquirt standalones) are able to have the fuel and timing tables adjust automaticall based on this sensors output. It's something that's probably not available now for 350zs but it could be in the future if you have enough people in the tuning crowd that are real into ecu programming and stuff.

One more thing... methanol injection is usually injected into a pipe somewhere before the throttle body. It's mixed with the air charge then gets distributed in the same way to each cylinder. I'm not sure how the intake manifold of a 350z is oriented, but at least in DSMs, each cylinder is not getting equal airflow, so aside from uneven airflow, you're getting uneven added fuel flow. With E85, it's going through the injectors, so each cylinder is getting the same amount of fuel. "

Those aren't my words so don't flame on me.

Z1 Performance

iTrader: (564)

I'd rather just make the power I want on plain old regular gas, that I can get anywhere, vs having to run some concoction of fluids, etc to get there. I could care less about having a map for this and a map for that...I'm lazy. I want my whp all the time, period, and I dont want to have to make special trips for special fuels or additives to get it If I can't do it on pump gas, then I lose interest quickly...but that's just me

Methanol is corrosive to aluminum...its not aluminum made in certain times , its aluminum period. How corrossive? It all depends on the alloy

Unless you have an ecu that trims each cylinder, it aint getting equal fuel, and certainly you're not getting equal combustion.

osinrider04

iTrader: (6)

I see...well the only reason I am doing the research is for the FI functionality of it. Because once I go FI I want to know which is the better route. Ya know?

UpRev

iTrader: (5)

Regular gas is the better route. If you run out of E85 and aren't near a place that has it, you're towing your car to the nearest pump. What are you going to do google gas station and call them all to find out which one has E85? It's not like you have a 400 gallon tank, you already know it will take quite a bit more fuel if you switch to E85, but your tank didn't get any bigger so your effective driving range just got halved. You'll need to be at the pump more often, and you'll need to stop your days errands to go get gas because hey, it's only available at a few locations.

osinrider04

iTrader: (6)

So does everyone agree if your Z is not a DD and more of a weekend car you drive when it isn't raining that it is ok?

BlinkerFluid

iTrader: (7)

I'm one of the DSM guys that is crazy about the stuff. It's a weekend car, I pick up E85 when I'm near the pump which is 30 mins from my house. I keep a 55 gal lined alcohol barrel in my shed and just pick up the fuel at my convenience when the barrel is getting low. I have been using E85 since late 2006.

I have at least 50% of the stock fuel system intact in my car (96 GSX) and have shown no issues with the ethanol fuel, nor have I had any aluminum corrosion issues when disassembled for inspection. The one thing I do notice is a lot more condensation in the catch can coming from the crank case, which I consider to be no problem.

I still get over 20MPG and the car runs almost 150mph in the 1/4 on it weighing in at about 3300lbs. So far, I have found no limit for power production other than running out of fuel system. One issue with it is it is unforgiving if you do get to the edge, detonation will not gradually come on as in gasoline, you may just get to a point with your timing and blam, full on engine busting detonation. Again a non-issue in the hands of an experienced tuner. On "low" boost (27psi) and only 14* peak timing, my car made over 600hp at the wheels. I have no clue what it makes now other than I turned the boost up 6psi and added 7* of timing.

Also, alcohol as a fuel does put out more power at the rich air fuel ratios we turbocharged tuners run than gasoline. For example, if you run rich for cylinder cooling on gasoline, you may lose 20hp, with the alcohol at the same lambda ratio, you may only lose 5hp.

If I could get it here in lower Alabama, I'd use it in my turbocharged G35 all day, every day. Biggest thing as mentioned is availability.

I will continue to use this fuel until I meet my goal at the track, which is a 9 sec pass at 150+mph on all season radials. Then I'll buy the expensive fuel and see what a 4G63 with a 42R can do.

My $0.02

*EDIT* Here is some reading material for you.

Alcohol Fuels Manual

E85Forum A small community but there is some good information if you can find it.

UpRev

iTrader: (5)

Correct if you have a second car and a way to transport fuel, it's a good choice. Otherwise stay away.

BlinkerFluid

iTrader: (7)

I deffinately concur.

osinrider04

iTrader: (6)

very interesting. Guess this decision will have to come once I am FI. Thanks for the help guys.

infinite

You can't really run E85 on a Z

UpRev

iTrader: (5)

oh?

infinite

It says so on the manual.

osinrider04

iTrader: (6)

?

UpRev

iTrader: (5)

Because the factory tune isn't adjusted for it. Aftermarket tunes can allow you to run it. To what end I'm not certain, but it is possible.

rcdash

iTrader: (18)

Well then of course it must not be possible. The magic formula is regular gas + water injection as needed.

infinite

you will need to change the fuel injectors for sure and I'm not sure what else.