XEDE results on pre-production 350Z
11-25-2003, 03:23 PM
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XEDE results on pre-production 350Z
Hi guys,
Just thought I'd keep everyone abreast of how things are coming along with our XEDE engine control computer for the 350Z. First of all, we've dyno tested 4 production 350Z in the last couple of months. Running our 91 octane pump gas, and on our Dyno Dynamics Dyno (which reads about 10-12% lower than traditional 2wd Dynojets), they all made 200-205whp. Some had cat-back exhausts, some intakes, some completely stock. It really didn't seem to matter as the computer would adjust itself down to standard power levels. For the most part, they put out the same power as 10-15whp more than the 2.0L Honda S2000s (also front engine/rwd) we've tested, FWIW.
It would have been nice to test an XEDE on one of these production cars. However, we recently acquired a pre-production 350Z press car. As with most pre-production press cars, it made more power than any of the production cars we tested. By a lot. Whereas the production 350Zs were making 200-205whp (again, on our Dyno Dynamics load bearing dyno), this pre-production 350Z made 220-225whp with a cat-back exhaust. This would equate to roughly 250-255whp for those who think in Dynojet numbers. Still 25-30whp more than the other two or three Dynojet results I've seen of 350Zs in the SF Bay area (where we only get 91 octane).
So, we installed the XEDE. Involved tapping into 12v and ground. And then intercepting MAF and Crank angle sensor (cutting 2 wires). For this naturally aspirated set up, I ended up using MAF (as opposed to MAP or TPS) for load referencing the fuel and timing tables. If turbo/supercharged, I might opt for MAP for load referencing all the tables and use the boost control outputs for wastegate control and/or SC bov/clutch (if applicable). Water injection could also be controlled. But I digress...
To cut to the chase, we picked up 10-15ft-lbs of torque just about everywhere, with the biggest gains in the 3500 to 4800rpm range. Power rose to 237whp as well. Run to run variance, which was quite significant before, become essentially zero which suggest that the factory ignition mapping may be too aggressive for this particular car. In fact, we ended up retarding a bit of timing just above everywhere (under load) which resulted in more overall timing advance since the knock sensor didn't suck out timing lumps here and there. We also leaned out the fuel tables a bit, morese above 4800rpm where this particular car would run a bit richer than necessary. Also pulled out a bit more timing at higher engine speeds. In terms of Dynojet hp, this car should put down around 265whp on 91 octane.
Now, here's the question we haven't answered yet: Is the preproduction car ~20whp stronger than the production cars we tested due to differences in engine calibration or due to differences in engine tolerances, camshaft profile, head porting, etc,. If it's all in the ECU, there shouldn't be any reason that all the other 350Zs (which dyno'd at 200whp) shouldn't make ~235whp which would be a 17% gain which would be surprising in a naturally aspirated car. Still, this would make me very happy
But if it's the latter, I wouldn't expect to make more than 10-15whp with the XEDE. Or, most likely, if it's a combination of the both, power gains through XEDE tuning should be somewhere in the middle. Of course, we won't know until we test on some more 350Zs, which we will start doing right after Thanksgiving.
We're also going to do some 93-94 octane testing on the pre-production car since the car seems to be quite obviously knock limited in the power it can generate. I suspect this has to do with why the cars I've seen in CA aren't making as much power as I would expect out of a car rated at 287bhp.
Just my 2c,
shiv
www.vishnutuning.com
Just thought I'd keep everyone abreast of how things are coming along with our XEDE engine control computer for the 350Z. First of all, we've dyno tested 4 production 350Z in the last couple of months. Running our 91 octane pump gas, and on our Dyno Dynamics Dyno (which reads about 10-12% lower than traditional 2wd Dynojets), they all made 200-205whp. Some had cat-back exhausts, some intakes, some completely stock. It really didn't seem to matter as the computer would adjust itself down to standard power levels. For the most part, they put out the same power as 10-15whp more than the 2.0L Honda S2000s (also front engine/rwd) we've tested, FWIW.
It would have been nice to test an XEDE on one of these production cars. However, we recently acquired a pre-production 350Z press car. As with most pre-production press cars, it made more power than any of the production cars we tested. By a lot. Whereas the production 350Zs were making 200-205whp (again, on our Dyno Dynamics load bearing dyno), this pre-production 350Z made 220-225whp with a cat-back exhaust. This would equate to roughly 250-255whp for those who think in Dynojet numbers. Still 25-30whp more than the other two or three Dynojet results I've seen of 350Zs in the SF Bay area (where we only get 91 octane).
So, we installed the XEDE. Involved tapping into 12v and ground. And then intercepting MAF and Crank angle sensor (cutting 2 wires). For this naturally aspirated set up, I ended up using MAF (as opposed to MAP or TPS) for load referencing the fuel and timing tables. If turbo/supercharged, I might opt for MAP for load referencing all the tables and use the boost control outputs for wastegate control and/or SC bov/clutch (if applicable). Water injection could also be controlled. But I digress...
To cut to the chase, we picked up 10-15ft-lbs of torque just about everywhere, with the biggest gains in the 3500 to 4800rpm range. Power rose to 237whp as well. Run to run variance, which was quite significant before, become essentially zero which suggest that the factory ignition mapping may be too aggressive for this particular car. In fact, we ended up retarding a bit of timing just above everywhere (under load) which resulted in more overall timing advance since the knock sensor didn't suck out timing lumps here and there. We also leaned out the fuel tables a bit, morese above 4800rpm where this particular car would run a bit richer than necessary. Also pulled out a bit more timing at higher engine speeds. In terms of Dynojet hp, this car should put down around 265whp on 91 octane.
Now, here's the question we haven't answered yet: Is the preproduction car ~20whp stronger than the production cars we tested due to differences in engine calibration or due to differences in engine tolerances, camshaft profile, head porting, etc,. If it's all in the ECU, there shouldn't be any reason that all the other 350Zs (which dyno'd at 200whp) shouldn't make ~235whp which would be a 17% gain which would be surprising in a naturally aspirated car. Still, this would make me very happy
But if it's the latter, I wouldn't expect to make more than 10-15whp with the XEDE. Or, most likely, if it's a combination of the both, power gains through XEDE tuning should be somewhere in the middle. Of course, we won't know until we test on some more 350Zs, which we will start doing right after Thanksgiving.We're also going to do some 93-94 octane testing on the pre-production car since the car seems to be quite obviously knock limited in the power it can generate. I suspect this has to do with why the cars I've seen in CA aren't making as much power as I would expect out of a car rated at 287bhp.
Just my 2c,
shiv
www.vishnutuning.com
11-25-2003, 04:04 PM
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Sounds good, but I'm sure that the press car has some additional engine work done to it that doesn't come on the production models. They gotta make the car look good for the magazines.
I would buy this setup if:
it could detect boost
it could retard timing based on boost
it could enable the car to run larger injectors
it would allow the user to change settings via software, similar to LS1edit
The most badass thing you could possibly do, IMO, is do all that and enable the XEDE to use a wideband O2 output for fuel mixtures.
I would buy this setup if:
it could detect boost
it could retard timing based on boost
it could enable the car to run larger injectors
it would allow the user to change settings via software, similar to LS1edit
The most badass thing you could possibly do, IMO, is do all that and enable the XEDE to use a wideband O2 output for fuel mixtures.
11-25-2003, 04:10 PM
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Shiv,
Interesting that you found such a difference on the pre-production models. Dwnshift said that they dyno'd a few engines and got in the 270HP range. This kinda confirms that there is missing power.
X
Interesting that you found such a difference on the pre-production models. Dwnshift said that they dyno'd a few engines and got in the 270HP range. This kinda confirms that there is missing power.
X
11-25-2003, 04:15 PM
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Originally posted by jesseenglish
Sounds good, but I'm sure that the press car has some additional engine work done to it that doesn't come on the production models. They gotta make the car look good for the magazines.
I would buy this setup if:
it could detect boost
it could retard timing based on boost
it could enable the car to run larger injectors
it would allow the user to change settings via software, similar to LS1edit
The most badass thing you could possibly do, IMO, is do all that and enable the XEDE to use a wideband O2 output for fuel mixtures.
Sounds good, but I'm sure that the press car has some additional engine work done to it that doesn't come on the production models. They gotta make the car look good for the magazines.
I would buy this setup if:
it could detect boost
it could retard timing based on boost
it could enable the car to run larger injectors
it would allow the user to change settings via software, similar to LS1edit
The most badass thing you could possibly do, IMO, is do all that and enable the XEDE to use a wideband O2 output for fuel mixtures.
As with our WRX and EVO XEDE, we post up calibration files for cars with different bolt-ons, injectors, turbos, etc,. The user can download them from the website and, using XMAP, modify (if desired) and upload them into the XEDE. Pretty flexible system.
Regards,
Shiv
11-25-2003, 04:24 PM
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Shiv --
Thanks for the update. This is one of the top things that the 350Z needs at the moment. A good replacement ECU will allow for proper tuning and appropriate ignition/timing control for highly modded N/A cars, as well as boosted setups.
The fact that it can control larger injectors is also a huge bonus, because as we add significantly more airflow, we will surely exceed the duty cycle of the small stock setup.
jesseenglish requested closed-loop control with a wideband O2 sensor. Is this possible with the XEDE?
Thanks.
Thanks for the update. This is one of the top things that the 350Z needs at the moment. A good replacement ECU will allow for proper tuning and appropriate ignition/timing control for highly modded N/A cars, as well as boosted setups.
The fact that it can control larger injectors is also a huge bonus, because as we add significantly more airflow, we will surely exceed the duty cycle of the small stock setup.
jesseenglish requested closed-loop control with a wideband O2 sensor. Is this possible with the XEDE?
Thanks.
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11-25-2003, 04:29 PM
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I take it you didn't get a chance to try the XEDE piggyback on the pre-production car? If you got much smaller gains with tuning for the pre-production car then I'd say the production models have detuned ECUs relative to the pre-production model.
--
Jeff
--
Jeff
11-25-2003, 04:35 PM
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Technosquare apparently discovered that the throttle starts to close a little as you reach redline. Can XEDE override what the stock ECU does based on throttle voltage levels? The problem would be how do you let the stock ECU do its thing during execution of VDC.
I'd hate to have to buy the TS ECU flash as well but that might be what it takes to get everything just perfect.
Oh, does the XEDE have per cylinder knock retard like J&S?
Thanks,
Jeff
I'd hate to have to buy the TS ECU flash as well but that might be what it takes to get everything just perfect.
Oh, does the XEDE have per cylinder knock retard like J&S?
Thanks,
Jeff
11-25-2003, 04:37 PM
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Originally posted by jeffw
I take it you didn't get a chance to try the XEDE piggyback on the pre-production car? If you got much smaller gains with tuning for the pre-production car then I'd say the production models have detuned ECUs relative to the pre-production model.
--
Jeff
I take it you didn't get a chance to try the XEDE piggyback on the pre-production car? If you got much smaller gains with tuning for the pre-production car then I'd say the production models have detuned ECUs relative to the pre-production model.
--
Jeff
Regards,
Shiv.
11-25-2003, 04:57 PM
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Originally posted by Shiv@Vishnu
Actually we did put the XEDE on the "pre-producton car" as my thread title indicates. We are hoping to try out the XEDE on a production model 350Z late next week.
Regards,
Shiv.
Actually we did put the XEDE on the "pre-producton car" as my thread title indicates. We are hoping to try out the XEDE on a production model 350Z late next week.
Regards,
Shiv.
--
Jeff
11-25-2003, 05:01 PM
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Interesting info. I can hardly wait to see your next progress report!! Good luck with the project. Let me know if you need cars to play with, we have them in many forms of mod's around here..... your only a 7 hour drive away.
11-25-2003, 05:09 PM
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Originally posted by azrael
Shiv --
jesseenglish requested closed-loop control with a wideband O2 sensor. Is this possible with the XEDE?
Shiv --
jesseenglish requested closed-loop control with a wideband O2 sensor. Is this possible with the XEDE?
reiver-- Yes, you tune/monitor with a laptop interface. You can download and install the XMAP software to see for yourself. Windows based, fully graphical, realtime updating, etc,.
jeffw- The XEDE itself does not have knock sensing/retard capabilities. And it never will since it works in conjuction with the factory knock control system (more on that later) which is quite a bit more accurate and sophisticated than any aftermarket knock retard controller I've used (J&S included). Adding an aftermarket knock sensor on top of a stock knock sensor is of questionable merit, IMHO. It may work well if the factory knock retard system has reached the limit of its retarding authority range but that should never happen in a properly tuned system. As for how the XEDE works with the factory knock sensor, it can manipulate the actual knock signal, effectively making the knock sensor more or less sensitive at different engine speed/load points. This is programmed through another 3D "knock adjust" table. However, this takes a lot of time to map and is usually only used in few very cars which have grossly over or under-sensitive knock control systems. This does not seem to be the case with the 350Z so we have are not using this feature at all.
Regards,
Shiv
PS. We picked up a bit more power tuning off of 94 octane. At 245whp (on our dyno), the 350Z is making the same whp as the last E46 M3 we tested.
11-25-2003, 05:30 PM
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Originally posted by Shiv@Vishnu
Actually we did put the XEDE on the "pre-producton car" as my thread title indicates. We are hoping to try out the XEDE on a production model 350Z late next week.
Regards,
Shiv.
Actually we did put the XEDE on the "pre-producton car" as my thread title indicates. We are hoping to try out the XEDE on a production model 350Z late next week.
Regards,
Shiv.
Nice gains!!
11-25-2003, 05:35 PM
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Sign me up..So will I be able to get this unit "pre" tuned to the mods I have on my Car(procharger) and get rid of the external fuel pump?and when I do further mods simply download new setting?is this correct?
11-25-2003, 05:59 PM
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ah.... ah...
shiv, you are so good...
the only reason I'm pulling hair out is that I needed you
about 2 months ago when my ATI went it. As shiv knows,
I'm only 5 minutes away from them but they were busy at
the time...
ah... now I already have the j&s but when you are ready
to work on the FI versions, I'll very interested...
best of luck and keep posting!!!
rob
shiv, you are so good...
the only reason I'm pulling hair out is that I needed you
about 2 months ago when my ATI went it. As shiv knows,
I'm only 5 minutes away from them but they were busy at
the time...
ah... now I already have the j&s but when you are ready
to work on the FI versions, I'll very interested...
best of luck and keep posting!!!
rob
11-25-2003, 06:01 PM
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Whoa
Originally posted by Shiv@Vishnu
Just in case you didn't know, the XEDE can read load off of a MAP sensor (stock or external 2 or 3 bar for boost applications), TPS (good for cars with high overlap cam that have unstable vacuum readings at idle) or MAF (good for any application which doesn't vent BOV discharge to atmosphere. No need to have a simplistic boost/retard strategy either since you can map your ignition timing with a 3D spark advance table. Same goes for fuel. Larger injectors can be accounted for as well. As well as larger MAFs, nitrous, turbo boost, additional injectors, water injection, etc,. And, like LS1 edit, the XEDE runs off of a user-programming tuning software called XMAP which can be loaded at http://www.vishnutuning.com/xede_evo.htm
As with our WRX and EVO XEDE, we post up calibration files for cars with different bolt-ons, injectors, turbos, etc,. The user can download them from the website and, using XMAP, modify (if desired) and upload them into the XEDE. Pretty flexible system.
Regards,
Shiv
Just in case you didn't know, the XEDE can read load off of a MAP sensor (stock or external 2 or 3 bar for boost applications), TPS (good for cars with high overlap cam that have unstable vacuum readings at idle) or MAF (good for any application which doesn't vent BOV discharge to atmosphere. No need to have a simplistic boost/retard strategy either since you can map your ignition timing with a 3D spark advance table. Same goes for fuel. Larger injectors can be accounted for as well. As well as larger MAFs, nitrous, turbo boost, additional injectors, water injection, etc,. And, like LS1 edit, the XEDE runs off of a user-programming tuning software called XMAP which can be loaded at http://www.vishnutuning.com/xede_evo.htm
As with our WRX and EVO XEDE, we post up calibration files for cars with different bolt-ons, injectors, turbos, etc,. The user can download them from the website and, using XMAP, modify (if desired) and upload them into the XEDE. Pretty flexible system.
Regards,
Shiv
Wow, how do you guys figure all of this stuff out? You guys are magic or something