Here is what I see as the biggest problem with tuning the Z....
04-23-2004, 04:21 PM
#21
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How couldnt it be worth your while if your charging your normal rates?
Because you have to turn away other clients while your working on it?
Well, simple - 1. you canot really charge your normal hours for a job of that size - it would be astronicaly, and not fair to the customer.
2. it's not an easy install - so you are getting paid less, but it totally kicks your a**
I have the TS ecu in my car since November now, but have not dynoed in a while. Car does not feel different, but I think the question would be best posed to TS (mine was flashed at one of their dealers).
Because you have to turn away other clients while your working on it?
Well, simple - 1. you canot really charge your normal hours for a job of that size - it would be astronicaly, and not fair to the customer.
2. it's not an easy install - so you are getting paid less, but it totally kicks your a**
I have the TS ecu in my car since November now, but have not dynoed in a while. Car does not feel different, but I think the question would be best posed to TS (mine was flashed at one of their dealers).
04-23-2004, 05:45 PM
#23
I agree with almost everything said here. No ECU reflash can be expected to cope with the infinite number of possible mod combinations and tuning options out there. Most tuners hate the idea of reflashed ECU, becuase as mentioned, it gives them no flexiblity...and they have no idea what has really been FLASHED into the ECU.
To answer some questions posed.....the Greddy kit, and SC kits on the market are very streetable, and could easily be "daily-drivers" for anyone. They are pretty solid and reliable right out of the box. Again, this is probably the best one could ask for. Safe reliable 350whp without a whole lot of fuss.
Now, for those that want to maximize their F/I investment, some additional upgrades and tuning are necessary. So first thing is you have to establish your goals. If you want 350whp, go with any of the kits out of the box and be done with it. If you want to push the envelope into the 375-400whp range, then the 350Z can take you there...but NOT out of the box. Tuning, fuel upgrades, timing adjustments/Reflash, and several other things are going to be necessary to create RELIABLE and safe operation.
Regarding this concept of the ECU "unlearning" mods, and reducing HP as time goes on. I can't really understand how this could be possible. Lemme explain...first with a N/A car...and then with a F/I car.
N/A:
ECU's main purpose to to insure that A/F is within acceptable limits at idle and cruise, and then safely rich at WOT. The stock ECU primary source of data is the Mass-air-flow sensor, O2 sensor, and RPM. Obviously, there are tons more sensors it is picking up, but i am simplying here for this example. During cruising conditions, the ECU is taking data from ALL of the sensors such as MAF, coolant TEMP, O2 sensor, TPS..etc..etc..and then providing the necessary injector duty to achieve a 14.7:1 combustion. This provides clean emmisions, and complete and efficient combustion. Now under WOT, it disreards all sensors, except with the MAF (which tells the ECU how much air is coming to the engine), and the RPM, which obviosuly tells the ECU how fast the engine is spinning. It then matches these numbers and determines again...how much fuel to send. If we add free flowing airfilters, pullies, or whatever, the MAF is reading more air, and hence, the ECU adds more fuel. The ECU can't unlearn it's desire to create proper combustion. It isn't going to lean things out...it can't physically do this unless it was disregarding the readings from the MAF...which it doesn't. So when you add exhuast, filters, whatever, you are going to get more HP, and it's not going to go away over time.
F/I example:
With an SC or Turbo charger, these items work like a MASSIVELY freeflowing filter. I mean, this darn fiilter is flowing so much, that it's actually creating positive boost in the intake manifold. Obviously, I am being facetious here, but the logic is the same. With one big difference. With an air-filter, the MAF will read all the air coming through because the volume of air is not great enough to exceed the measuring capabilities of the MAF. The MAF can measure voltage between 0-5volts, and it maxes out at 5volts pretty darn quickly with F/I. With an N/A, you will not max out your MAF so you have nothing to worry about. But with an SC, and TT, you will max out your MAF somewhere between 4000rpm and 6000rpm, depending on your setup, gear, etc. So back to my example....as the volume of air increases with an F/I, the MAF again is meauring the air, and does a nice job of fueling until we reach 5V. After we exceed this point, the MAF has no idea how much air is coming to the engine, and obviously the ECU cannot add any additional fuel if it doesn't know how much air is coming in. So to solve this, we use an eManage piggy back unit to add additional duty cycle once the MAF is maxed out. It doesnt trick the ECU or anything. The ECU sends out its data to the injector, and the eManage just adds to it. So again...the ECU can unlearn this. It had no idea that we just altered its signal. We just add more fuel as the RPM keeps rising. It's kinda a guessing game to determine fuel requirments, which is why the eManage come preprogrammed with a nice and safe rich map. The eManage also clamps the MAF at 5V, so the car doesnt go into limp mode, or freak out when we max the MAF. On an SC, they use a slightly different fueling system. With the procharger, they essentially add a fuel pump and reg to over-pressurize the stock fuel injectors to deliver more fuel....but with the same dutycycle...I am pretty sure of this on the SC world...but someone can correct me if I am wrong. I think the Vortech Split second box can actually controll the stock injector duty cycle...in which case, it would work exactly like the eManage.
So, I hope this clears up some misconceptions about your ECU and the different tuning options out there.
Piggy-back systems have been giving a bad reputation by some people..and it is totally undeserved. Depending on how they are setup, they can be a very effective, and highly accurate way to add more fuel, or retard timing, while retaining the driveabilty and all the cool features of the stock ECU. Standalone computers are all the rage...but believe me..they are no a magic bullet. They are very expensive, esecially after you factor in tuning, extra harnesses and sensors, and installation. And be prepared to send months...literally...with the laptop in your car tuning for all the zillions of driving variabiles out there. Cold start, warm start, cold start in warm conditions, cold start in cold conditions, starting at high-alttitudes, part throttle response, medium throttle response...etec..etc..
Tuners love to take a car...throw on a stand-alone, and tune it on the dyno at WOT to show the customer the big numbers. That is the easy part. Drivabilty is the hard part to get right...and it can take many many months. I know there are some hybrids that retain the functionality of the ECU, but have more tuning options. In my opion, the eManage des 98% what these units can do, and costs a fraction of the price.
FYI: the eManage can easily be used with N/A applications to richen up fuel. I bet nobody ever thought of that. For half the price of one TS reflash, you can have an eManage.
Wow...sorry for the long post...but I have the day off from work..and I have tons of energy right now!
Cheers
To answer some questions posed.....the Greddy kit, and SC kits on the market are very streetable, and could easily be "daily-drivers" for anyone. They are pretty solid and reliable right out of the box. Again, this is probably the best one could ask for. Safe reliable 350whp without a whole lot of fuss.
Now, for those that want to maximize their F/I investment, some additional upgrades and tuning are necessary. So first thing is you have to establish your goals. If you want 350whp, go with any of the kits out of the box and be done with it. If you want to push the envelope into the 375-400whp range, then the 350Z can take you there...but NOT out of the box. Tuning, fuel upgrades, timing adjustments/Reflash, and several other things are going to be necessary to create RELIABLE and safe operation.
Regarding this concept of the ECU "unlearning" mods, and reducing HP as time goes on. I can't really understand how this could be possible. Lemme explain...first with a N/A car...and then with a F/I car.
N/A:
ECU's main purpose to to insure that A/F is within acceptable limits at idle and cruise, and then safely rich at WOT. The stock ECU primary source of data is the Mass-air-flow sensor, O2 sensor, and RPM. Obviously, there are tons more sensors it is picking up, but i am simplying here for this example. During cruising conditions, the ECU is taking data from ALL of the sensors such as MAF, coolant TEMP, O2 sensor, TPS..etc..etc..and then providing the necessary injector duty to achieve a 14.7:1 combustion. This provides clean emmisions, and complete and efficient combustion. Now under WOT, it disreards all sensors, except with the MAF (which tells the ECU how much air is coming to the engine), and the RPM, which obviosuly tells the ECU how fast the engine is spinning. It then matches these numbers and determines again...how much fuel to send. If we add free flowing airfilters, pullies, or whatever, the MAF is reading more air, and hence, the ECU adds more fuel. The ECU can't unlearn it's desire to create proper combustion. It isn't going to lean things out...it can't physically do this unless it was disregarding the readings from the MAF...which it doesn't. So when you add exhuast, filters, whatever, you are going to get more HP, and it's not going to go away over time.
F/I example:
With an SC or Turbo charger, these items work like a MASSIVELY freeflowing filter.
I mean, this darn fiilter is flowing so much, that it's actually creating positive boost in the intake manifold. Obviously, I am being facetious here, but the logic is the same. With one big difference. With an air-filter, the MAF will read all the air coming through because the volume of air is not great enough to exceed the measuring capabilities of the MAF. The MAF can measure voltage between 0-5volts, and it maxes out at 5volts pretty darn quickly with F/I. With an N/A, you will not max out your MAF so you have nothing to worry about. But with an SC, and TT, you will max out your MAF somewhere between 4000rpm and 6000rpm, depending on your setup, gear, etc. So back to my example....as the volume of air increases with an F/I, the MAF again is meauring the air, and does a nice job of fueling until we reach 5V. After we exceed this point, the MAF has no idea how much air is coming to the engine, and obviously the ECU cannot add any additional fuel if it doesn't know how much air is coming in. So to solve this, we use an eManage piggy back unit to add additional duty cycle once the MAF is maxed out. It doesnt trick the ECU or anything. The ECU sends out its data to the injector, and the eManage just adds to it. So again...the ECU can unlearn this. It had no idea that we just altered its signal. We just add more fuel as the RPM keeps rising. It's kinda a guessing game to determine fuel requirments, which is why the eManage come preprogrammed with a nice and safe rich map. The eManage also clamps the MAF at 5V, so the car doesnt go into limp mode, or freak out when we max the MAF. On an SC, they use a slightly different fueling system. With the procharger, they essentially add a fuel pump and reg to over-pressurize the stock fuel injectors to deliver more fuel....but with the same dutycycle...I am pretty sure of this on the SC world...but someone can correct me if I am wrong. I think the Vortech Split second box can actually controll the stock injector duty cycle...in which case, it would work exactly like the eManage.So, I hope this clears up some misconceptions about your ECU and the different tuning options out there.
Piggy-back systems have been giving a bad reputation by some people..and it is totally undeserved. Depending on how they are setup, they can be a very effective, and highly accurate way to add more fuel, or retard timing, while retaining the driveabilty and all the cool features of the stock ECU. Standalone computers are all the rage...but believe me..they are no a magic bullet. They are very expensive, esecially after you factor in tuning, extra harnesses and sensors, and installation. And be prepared to send months...literally...with the laptop in your car tuning for all the zillions of driving variabiles out there. Cold start, warm start, cold start in warm conditions, cold start in cold conditions, starting at high-alttitudes, part throttle response, medium throttle response...etec..etc..
Tuners love to take a car...throw on a stand-alone, and tune it on the dyno at WOT to show the customer the big numbers. That is the easy part. Drivabilty is the hard part to get right...and it can take many many months. I know there are some hybrids that retain the functionality of the ECU, but have more tuning options. In my opion, the eManage des 98% what these units can do, and costs a fraction of the price.
FYI: the eManage can easily be used with N/A applications to richen up fuel. I bet nobody ever thought of that. For half the price of one TS reflash, you can have an eManage.
Wow...sorry for the long post...but I have the day off from work..and I have tons of energy right now!
Cheers
Last edited by Sharif@Forged; 04-23-2004 at 05:53 PM.
04-23-2004, 05:54 PM
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Thanks G ..... I think I'm going to stick with the vortech...I don't race it (yet) .... I just want more power than I have now. The install seems to be a lot easier than the greddy and cost is a big concern to me.
04-25-2004, 05:32 AM
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Forget AEM. THe new Hydra ECU blows it away in user friendliness and safety features.
http://www.hydra-ems.com/
It will be a plug and play solution that can do anything you want it to along with closed loop fuel control using a wideband both at part throttle and full throttle. For most the E-Manage is plenty and very affordable.
http://www.hydra-ems.com/
It will be a plug and play solution that can do anything you want it to along with closed loop fuel control using a wideband both at part throttle and full throttle. For most the E-Manage is plenty and very affordable.
04-25-2004, 09:38 AM
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Great write-up GQ.
AEM is still a long way away as they might be working on the fly-by-wire set-up.
The Hydra on the other hand is supposedly ready to go soon. I had the opportunity to see a prototype unit in a R34 Skyline being tuned and i'm impressed with what they can do.
AEM is still a long way away as they might be working on the fly-by-wire set-up.
The Hydra on the other hand is supposedly ready to go soon. I had the opportunity to see a prototype unit in a R34 Skyline being tuned and i'm impressed with what they can do.
05-22-2004, 02:45 PM
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with gas prices as they are what how much more efficient on gas would a tt system be than sc considering for daily dirver. And does anyone have info on a tt system w/ the best mpg and a sc system w/ the best mpg............
05-23-2004, 10:58 PM
#28
three2seven...this is a tough question. All things being equal, a TT is going to give slighly better gas mileage, since there isnt a parasitic drag on the engine, as with a belt driven SC. If you cruise around in a TT...and keep out of the boost...your fuel mileage should be near stock levels. As you boost more, of course..MPG will decrease. With an SC...you will have a lower baseline MPG, and then..as with the TT, when you boost, you get less MPG. My TT didnt lose much MPG when I went from N/A to TT...I get about 19mpg with a majority of my driving in the city. If I do all freeway driving..I can get close to 23MPG. Actually my 19inch wheels and fat tires actually reduced mileage to a much greater extent than the TT.
The SC guys are getting about 17-18 MPG...so really...not much less than the TT....is it so close to almost be a non-issue when it comes to deciding TT vs. SC.
PS: If you are worried about gas at 2.50/gallon..not sure F/I is the way to go.....that will be the least of your expenses...ha!
The SC guys are getting about 17-18 MPG...so really...not much less than the TT....is it so close to almost be a non-issue when it comes to deciding TT vs. SC.
PS: If you are worried about gas at 2.50/gallon..not sure F/I is the way to go.....that will be the least of your expenses...ha!
06-04-2004, 02:03 PM
#29
Jumped into this thread a little late.
I have never seen a aftermarket system that works perfect for tuning and requires very little to no tuning. I mean were talking verables on each car in different climates. If you the kind of person that doesn't like to play with all the verisbles associated with perhaps doubling the out put power than one best stay away. How ever for those who have fun with it and enjoy telling people they have a 3.5L V6 making 400+hp it is pretty safe to say you will enjoy the tuning process.
I have never seen a aftermarket system that works perfect for tuning and requires very little to no tuning. I mean were talking verables on each car in different climates. If you the kind of person that doesn't like to play with all the verisbles associated with perhaps doubling the out put power than one best stay away. How ever for those who have fun with it and enjoy telling people they have a 3.5L V6 making 400+hp it is pretty safe to say you will enjoy the tuning process.
06-04-2004, 02:13 PM
#30
As far as turning away someone with a greddy TT install kit for an install
Bring that thing down here we will take care of it. Just be ready to be paciant with the time it takes. It is a 25 hour job for the install. so having your car back in a week. The last build we had here took over 2 months to complete with all the toys we added. And when a car leaves here it right and runs perfectly or you don't get it back.
Bring that thing down here we will take care of it. Just be ready to be paciant with the time it takes. It is a 25 hour job for the install. so having your car back in a week. The last build we had here took over 2 months to complete with all the toys we added. And when a car leaves here it right and runs perfectly or you don't get it back.
06-04-2004, 02:18 PM
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Originally posted by three2seven
with gas prices as they are what how much more efficient on gas would a tt system be than sc considering for daily dirver. And does anyone have info on a tt system w/ the best mpg and a sc system w/ the best mpg............
with gas prices as they are what how much more efficient on gas would a tt system be than sc considering for daily dirver. And does anyone have info on a tt system w/ the best mpg and a sc system w/ the best mpg............
55 MPH 28 MPG
60 MPH 27 MPG
70 MPH 24 MPG
80 MPH 20 MPG
and, I have the procharger.
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