The "right" way to tune the Z
08-13-2004, 07:53 PM
#1
Registered User
Thread Starter
The "right" way to tune the Z
After waiting for my car for 4 months, and now owning it for another 4, I have spent many many many hours researching the best way to RELIABLY tune this car. It isn't easy...here's why:
The Z was designed on a certain budget. Within that budget, Nissan has really maximized the performance of this motor. Remember, they have already squeezed another 47hp from this engine since it's original introduction in the Maxima a few years back.
So, what's the big deal, you say? Throw in another $10k in mods, screw the budget, and you have more power, right?
Well, not quite. That's because within the constraints of their intended budget, Nissan has come close to maximizing what this engines internals can reliably tolerate. And...to go with much better internals, stock, would be well beyond the intended budget.
What all this boils down to is that to get serious power reliably in this car, an internal upgrade is really what is called for as the place to start. Sure, there is another 30hp to be gained from non-internal NA mods (this includes cams), but those mid-upper rpm gains come at the expense of low end torque to one degree or another. Good for the track, debatable for the street. The percentage of failures with FI is also quite high on stock internals.
Quality costs. Period. There is a reason an M3 with 333hp costs $55k.....and that engine also runs on the ragged edge. My previous Audi S4 was able to handle 25psi of boost on stock internals....forged from the factory.
Did anyone get a good look at that sign on the front of Toretto's garage in "The Fast and the Furious"........
Fast + Good = Not cheap
Fast + Cheap = Not good
Good + Cheap = Not Fast
Words to take seriously.
The Z was designed on a certain budget. Within that budget, Nissan has really maximized the performance of this motor. Remember, they have already squeezed another 47hp from this engine since it's original introduction in the Maxima a few years back.
So, what's the big deal, you say? Throw in another $10k in mods, screw the budget, and you have more power, right?
Well, not quite. That's because within the constraints of their intended budget, Nissan has come close to maximizing what this engines internals can reliably tolerate. And...to go with much better internals, stock, would be well beyond the intended budget.
What all this boils down to is that to get serious power reliably in this car, an internal upgrade is really what is called for as the place to start. Sure, there is another 30hp to be gained from non-internal NA mods (this includes cams), but those mid-upper rpm gains come at the expense of low end torque to one degree or another. Good for the track, debatable for the street. The percentage of failures with FI is also quite high on stock internals.
Quality costs. Period. There is a reason an M3 with 333hp costs $55k.....and that engine also runs on the ragged edge. My previous Audi S4 was able to handle 25psi of boost on stock internals....forged from the factory.
Did anyone get a good look at that sign on the front of Toretto's garage in "The Fast and the Furious"........
Fast + Good = Not cheap
Fast + Cheap = Not good
Good + Cheap = Not Fast
Words to take seriously.
Last edited by Speedracer; 08-13-2004 at 07:58 PM.
08-13-2004, 07:58 PM
#2
Registered User
Take the Crawford Package...
We made 20ish peak... near 40 at redline. Tuned with a TS flash... this car is a rocket.
Adam (VandyZ) has ZERO trouble pulling on SMG E46 M3s, and gives 6sps and UGLY run for their dinero.
... oh yeah, the package can be had for WAY less than $10k... and no need for cams!!!
We made 20ish peak... near 40 at redline. Tuned with a TS flash... this car is a rocket.
Adam (VandyZ) has ZERO trouble pulling on SMG E46 M3s, and gives 6sps and UGLY run for their dinero.
... oh yeah, the package can be had for WAY less than $10k... and no need for cams!!!
08-13-2004, 08:04 PM
#3
Registered User
Thread Starter
No argument,but......
Originally posted by PhoenixINX
Take the Crawford Package...
We made 20ish peak... near 40 at redline. Tuned with a TS flash... this car is a rocket.
Adam (VandyZ) has ZERO trouble pulling on SMG E46 M3s, and gives 6sps and UGLY run for their dinero.
... oh yeah, the package can be had for WAY less than $10k... and no need for cams!!!
Take the Crawford Package...
We made 20ish peak... near 40 at redline. Tuned with a TS flash... this car is a rocket.
Adam (VandyZ) has ZERO trouble pulling on SMG E46 M3s, and gives 6sps and UGLY run for their dinero.
... oh yeah, the package can be had for WAY less than $10k... and no need for cams!!!
Last edited by Speedracer; 08-13-2004 at 08:09 PM.
08-13-2004, 09:09 PM
#5
Registered User
iTrader: (1)
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: LA, CA
Posts: 246
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by PhoenixINX
Take the Crawford Package...
We made 20ish peak... near 40 at redline. Tuned with a TS flash... this car is a rocket.
Adam (VandyZ) has ZERO trouble pulling on SMG E46 M3s, and gives 6sps and UGLY run for their dinero.
... oh yeah, the package can be had for WAY less than $10k... and no need for cams!!!
Take the Crawford Package...
We made 20ish peak... near 40 at redline. Tuned with a TS flash... this car is a rocket.
Adam (VandyZ) has ZERO trouble pulling on SMG E46 M3s, and gives 6sps and UGLY run for their dinero.
... oh yeah, the package can be had for WAY less than $10k... and no need for cams!!!
08-14-2004, 12:28 AM
#6
Registered User
Originally posted by nuttyprof
what is in the package exactly? and how the heck is he beating E46 M3's with only 320 or so hp?
what is in the package exactly? and how the heck is he beating E46 M3's with only 320 or so hp?
As for pulling on SMG E46...hmmm very interesting.
08-14-2004, 01:49 AM
#7
New Member
iTrader: (6)
Join Date: May 2002
Location: san luis obispo, ca
Posts: 1,580
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by PhoenixINX
Too loud????
Doug's car with the Package & Borla exhaust is hardly louder than stock. I'm confused where you heard such a rumor.
Too loud????
Doug's car with the Package & Borla exhaust is hardly louder than stock. I'm confused where you heard such a rumor.
Trending Topics
08-14-2004, 03:29 AM
#9
Registered User
iTrader: (36)
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: PETERSBURG,VIRGINIA
Posts: 1,896
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: No argument,but......
Originally posted by Speedracer
the package is way to loud for some, including me. Again, great for the track, less tolerable as a daily driver. I live in a "family" neighborhood, and leave for work at 6am. Can't afford to be waking the neighbors kids with my loud Crawford Z. In making my comments, I did have real streetability in mind. That said, I do think Crawford has the highest quality aftermarket products available for the Z. If it wasn't for the loudness issue, I'd be all over it.
the package is way to loud for some, including me. Again, great for the track, less tolerable as a daily driver. I live in a "family" neighborhood, and leave for work at 6am. Can't afford to be waking the neighbors kids with my loud Crawford Z. In making my comments, I did have real streetability in mind. That said, I do think Crawford has the highest quality aftermarket products available for the Z. If it wasn't for the loudness issue, I'd be all over it.
08-14-2004, 04:57 AM
#10
Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Eastern PA
Posts: 940
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally posted by fdao
The Crawford Package consists of Plenum + Headers + CATS.
As for pulling on SMG E46...hmmm very interesting.
The Crawford Package consists of Plenum + Headers + CATS.
As for pulling on SMG E46...hmmm very interesting.
WIth my mods (listed below) I was able hang with a new SMG M3 E46 at my last track day. I have no plenum or ECU tune yet.
I also spoke to the driver of the M3 and I know he was all out on the back straight. IF he was in front of me, I could NOT pass, but I maintained my distance behind him. If I was in front of him, he could not pass, but also maintained his distance behind me. I have no doubt that with a Plenum and ECU tune I could easily take a new M3 E46 SMG.
08-14-2004, 05:19 AM
#11
The loudest part of my car is the JWT intake. I probably have the quietest car of the group of us that have all the stuff locally. I remember getting ragged on a little for buying an expensive exhaust and have it be this quiet. But that being said, make no mistake, at WOT and pulling 7000 RPMs . . . the car is screaming. I dont do that on city streets and certainly dont do it in my neighborhood.
As far as pulling M3's. . .that sounds too dramatic. Lets just say they are very surprised when they dont walk me. I have not faired the same vs every M3, but I have been known to make an impression or two.
I do think its about time to take it up a level. 
As far as pulling M3's. . .that sounds too dramatic. Lets just say they are very surprised when they dont walk me. I have not faired the same vs every M3, but I have been known to make an impression or two.
I do think its about time to take it up a level.
08-14-2004, 06:48 AM
#12
Registered User
Thread Starter
Good to hear with regards to the sound issue.....
Originally posted by VandyZ
The loudest part of my car is the JWT intake. I probably have the quietest car of the group of us that have all the stuff locally. I remember getting ragged on a little for buying an expensive exhaust and have it be this quiet. But that being said, make no mistake, at WOT and pulling 7000 RPMs . . . the car is screaming. I dont do that on city streets and certainly dont do it in my neighborhood.
As far as pulling M3's. . .that sounds too dramatic. Lets just say they are very surprised when they dont walk me. I have not faired the same vs every M3, but I have been known to make an impression or two. I do think its about time to take it up a level.
The loudest part of my car is the JWT intake. I probably have the quietest car of the group of us that have all the stuff locally. I remember getting ragged on a little for buying an expensive exhaust and have it be this quiet. But that being said, make no mistake, at WOT and pulling 7000 RPMs . . . the car is screaming. I dont do that on city streets and certainly dont do it in my neighborhood.
As far as pulling M3's. . .that sounds too dramatic. Lets just say they are very surprised when they dont walk me. I have not faired the same vs every M3, but I have been known to make an impression or two.
I do think its about time to take it up a level.
And while we are on the subject of M3 kills, how do you all think the complete Crawford package including ECU re-flash plus Cams would do? Anyone done this yet?
08-14-2004, 07:44 AM
#13
Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: United States
Posts: 1,322
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re: No argument,but......
Originally posted by Speedracer
the package is way to loud for some, including me. Again, great for the track, less tolerable as a daily driver. I live in a "family" neighborhood, and leave for work at 6am. Can't afford to be waking the neighbors kids with my loud Crawford Z. In making my comments, I did have real streetability in mind. That said, I do think Crawford has the highest quality aftermarket products available for the Z. If it wasn't for the loudness issue, I'd be all over it.
the package is way to loud for some, including me. Again, great for the track, less tolerable as a daily driver. I live in a "family" neighborhood, and leave for work at 6am. Can't afford to be waking the neighbors kids with my loud Crawford Z. In making my comments, I did have real streetability in mind. That said, I do think Crawford has the highest quality aftermarket products available for the Z. If it wasn't for the loudness issue, I'd be all over it.
08-14-2004, 07:56 AM
#14
Registered User
Re: Good to hear with regards to the sound issue.....
Originally posted by Speedracer
And while we are on the subject of M3 kills, how do you all think the complete Crawford package including ECU re-flash plus Cams would do? Anyone done this yet?
And while we are on the subject of M3 kills, how do you all think the complete Crawford package including ECU re-flash plus Cams would do? Anyone done this yet?
a wild cam, i.e 268+ will give you a nice edge. We already have a better torque curve, those cams will then give you the needed HP.
Enjoy
08-14-2004, 08:37 AM
#15
Sponsor
Performance Nissan
Performance Nissan
iTrader: (11)
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: So-Cal - Ready to go?
Posts: 8,783
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
get a tilton flywheel and clutch and call it a day...
seriously though... JWT Pop Charger / Tilton Flywheel & Clutch / High Flow Cats / Cat Back Exhaust and you will have your self a beast...
Dont forget suspension too!
seriously though... JWT Pop Charger / Tilton Flywheel & Clutch / High Flow Cats / Cat Back Exhaust and you will have your self a beast...
Dont forget suspension too!
08-15-2004, 08:14 AM
#17
whewww...I thought was going to get ugly...hehe.
Sorry folks, as Vandy said, even with all the Crawford go-fast goodies, you wont be pulling hard on M3's. I raced my buddies SMG with 6psi of boost, and I gradually pulled on from a roll. We raced from 5pmh to 70mph and I was about 3 cars ahead of him...tops.
On the track, its totally different. Driver skill makes a huge difference in how people charge into corners, and the drive out of the corners. And the drive out of the corners can propell you to a nice lead in the straight aways.
Regarding speedracers original post...I'd like to add a bit.
Although most of you will recall, I was a big advocate of F/I on stock internal 350Z motors at low boost levels. We've all be told that tuning is everyone..and it still is. But after several.....and I mean several...Vortech and Greddy engine blow-ups, I'm convinced that even with stock boost level and mapping, this car can not reliably tolerate F/I. Yes...you can run the motor for many happy miles, and likely not notice any ill effects, but eventually...and my guess is less than 30K miles....the engine is going to...at a minimum...start lossing compression via ring leakage and damage...or worse...snap a rod...even with stock boost. Metal will fatigue gradually over time....and once that metal reaches its breaking point..it's bye bye. Some people claim the Vortech's are gentler on the engine. Based on Forum observation..that is not the case. Even running rich and with timing retard, several members have lost compression in their cylinders. Seems like the Greddy people are snapping rods, and the Vortech people are blowing rings.
Thats the main reason I put the group buy together on Forged Internals for the 350Z.
Sorry folks, as Vandy said, even with all the Crawford go-fast goodies, you wont be pulling hard on M3's. I raced my buddies SMG with 6psi of boost, and I gradually pulled on from a roll. We raced from 5pmh to 70mph and I was about 3 cars ahead of him...tops.
On the track, its totally different. Driver skill makes a huge difference in how people charge into corners, and the drive out of the corners. And the drive out of the corners can propell you to a nice lead in the straight aways.
Regarding speedracers original post...I'd like to add a bit.
Although most of you will recall, I was a big advocate of F/I on stock internal 350Z motors at low boost levels. We've all be told that tuning is everyone..and it still is. But after several.....and I mean several...Vortech and Greddy engine blow-ups, I'm convinced that even with stock boost level and mapping, this car can not reliably tolerate F/I. Yes...you can run the motor for many happy miles, and likely not notice any ill effects, but eventually...and my guess is less than 30K miles....the engine is going to...at a minimum...start lossing compression via ring leakage and damage...or worse...snap a rod...even with stock boost. Metal will fatigue gradually over time....and once that metal reaches its breaking point..it's bye bye. Some people claim the Vortech's are gentler on the engine. Based on Forum observation..that is not the case. Even running rich and with timing retard, several members have lost compression in their cylinders. Seems like the Greddy people are snapping rods, and the Vortech people are blowing rings.
Thats the main reason I put the group buy together on Forged Internals for the 350Z.
Last edited by Sharif@Forged; 08-15-2004 at 08:17 AM.
08-15-2004, 08:29 AM
#18
Registered User
Originally posted by gq_626
whewww...I thought was going to get ugly...hehe.
Sorry folks, as Vandy said, even with all the Crawford go-fast goodies, you wont be pulling hard on M3's. I raced my buddies SMG with 6psi of boost, and I gradually pulled on from a roll. We raced from 5pmh to 70mph and I was about 3 cars ahead of him...tops.
whewww...I thought was going to get ugly...hehe.
Sorry folks, as Vandy said, even with all the Crawford go-fast goodies, you wont be pulling hard on M3's. I raced my buddies SMG with 6psi of boost, and I gradually pulled on from a roll. We raced from 5pmh to 70mph and I was about 3 cars ahead of him...tops.
I wish I had printed it out, but we had a dyno overlay of a stock 6sp M3 vs. Adam's car. It's AMAZING how much more torque we're making so much earlier... and the M3 wasn't peaking that much higher.
... plus I've watched him run a local 6sp now a couple times.
Rest assured as his car sits, with a capable driver... Only the 6sp is going to offer a match.
08-15-2004, 09:03 AM
#19
Originally posted by gq_626
I'm convinced that even with stock boost level and mapping, this car can not reliably tolerate F/I.
I'm convinced that even with stock boost level and mapping, this car can not reliably tolerate F/I.
Of course, one can do the general NA bolt ons and should be safe from detonation but it becomes a $/hp issue and from watching Jeff@Performance's everything including the kitchen sink Z being built NA, I think the ceiling is about 270 rwhp.
08-15-2004, 09:07 AM
#20
Registered User
Thread Starter
I like your choice of pistons.....
Originally posted by gq_626
whewww...I thought was going to get ugly...hehe.
Sorry folks, as Vandy said, even with all the Crawford go-fast goodies, you wont be pulling hard on M3's. I raced my buddies SMG with 6psi of boost, and I gradually pulled on from a roll. We raced from 5pmh to 70mph and I was about 3 cars ahead of him...tops.
On the track, its totally different. Driver skill makes a huge difference in how people charge into corners, and the drive out of the corners. And the drive out of the corners can propell you to a nice lead in the straight aways.
Regarding speedracers original post...I'd like to add a bit.
Although most of you will recall, I was a big advocate of F/I on stock internal 350Z motors at low boost levels. We've all be told that tuning is everyone..and it still is. But after several.....and I mean several...Vortech and Greddy engine blow-ups, I'm convinced that even with stock boost level and mapping, this car can not reliably tolerate F/I. Yes...you can run the motor for many happy miles, and likely not notice any ill effects, but eventually...and my guess is less than 30K miles....the engine is going to...at a minimum...start lossing compression via ring leakage and damage...or worse...snap a rod...even with stock boost. Metal will fatigue gradually over time....and once that metal reaches its breaking point..it's bye bye. Some people claim the Vortech's are gentler on the engine. Based on Forum observation..that is not the case. Even running rich and with timing retard, several members have lost compression in their cylinders. Seems like the Greddy people are snapping rods, and the Vortech people are blowing rings.
Thats the main reason I put the group buy together on Forged Internals for the 350Z.
whewww...I thought was going to get ugly...hehe.
Sorry folks, as Vandy said, even with all the Crawford go-fast goodies, you wont be pulling hard on M3's. I raced my buddies SMG with 6psi of boost, and I gradually pulled on from a roll. We raced from 5pmh to 70mph and I was about 3 cars ahead of him...tops.
On the track, its totally different. Driver skill makes a huge difference in how people charge into corners, and the drive out of the corners. And the drive out of the corners can propell you to a nice lead in the straight aways.
Regarding speedracers original post...I'd like to add a bit.
Although most of you will recall, I was a big advocate of F/I on stock internal 350Z motors at low boost levels. We've all be told that tuning is everyone..and it still is. But after several.....and I mean several...Vortech and Greddy engine blow-ups, I'm convinced that even with stock boost level and mapping, this car can not reliably tolerate F/I. Yes...you can run the motor for many happy miles, and likely not notice any ill effects, but eventually...and my guess is less than 30K miles....the engine is going to...at a minimum...start lossing compression via ring leakage and damage...or worse...snap a rod...even with stock boost. Metal will fatigue gradually over time....and once that metal reaches its breaking point..it's bye bye. Some people claim the Vortech's are gentler on the engine. Based on Forum observation..that is not the case. Even running rich and with timing retard, several members have lost compression in their cylinders. Seems like the Greddy people are snapping rods, and the Vortech people are blowing rings.
Thats the main reason I put the group buy together on Forged Internals for the 350Z.