HR swap into an 03
07-20-2008, 06:34 PM
#22
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Originally Posted by 350z_racer05
thats what I thought, but the OP seems to think so. And how the hell is someone suppose to modify a crawford plenum to a dual intake? I don't think he realizes the crawford plenum actually replaces both the top and bottom plenums.
Doug already has done a dual TB setup on one of his plenums, couldn't control the second that well and it kept going into limp mode. So the plenum is already made. It was too hard to try to copy the pulsation to the second TB since it goes both positive and negative battery voltage.
I made a 78 mm TB and not even the Playboy car with Motec could control it (regeared the motor and other stuff to move it farther away).
Hey, the worst possible thing that can happen is that I fail. Either way I got a longblock cheap. If I fail I sell it for more than I have in it, if I suceed, yippee.
I'll know more once i get it here and can dig into it.
07-20-2008, 06:36 PM
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Originally Posted by 2004Black350z
y do u have links in ur sigs that dont work
07-20-2008, 06:44 PM
#24
Originally Posted by Lightning Guy
Crawford plenum is only the upper plenum cover, still uses the OE lower plenum.
Doug already has done a dual TB setup on one of his plenums, couldn't control the second that well and it kept going into limp mode. So the plenum is already made. It was too hard to try to copy the pulsation to the second TB since it goes both positive and negative battery voltage.
I made a 78 mm TB and not even the Playboy car with Motec could control it (regeared the motor and other stuff to move it farther away).
Hey, the worst possible thing that can happen is that I fail. Either way I got a longblock cheap. If I fail I sell it for more than I have in it, if I suceed, yippee.
I'll know more once i get it here and can dig into it.
Doug already has done a dual TB setup on one of his plenums, couldn't control the second that well and it kept going into limp mode. So the plenum is already made. It was too hard to try to copy the pulsation to the second TB since it goes both positive and negative battery voltage.
I made a 78 mm TB and not even the Playboy car with Motec could control it (regeared the motor and other stuff to move it farther away).
Hey, the worst possible thing that can happen is that I fail. Either way I got a longblock cheap. If I fail I sell it for more than I have in it, if I suceed, yippee.
I'll know more once i get it here and can dig into it.
07-20-2008, 07:07 PM
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Originally Posted by 350z_racer05
oh crap, I was thinking cosworth, nevermind.
07-21-2008, 04:24 AM
#26
How can you put a Crawford plenum on a HR?! There is no possible way without redoing the whole plenum. No one has done it, Motordyne and other vendors have verified it isn't possible.
Originally Posted by Lightning Guy
Crawford plenum is only the upper plenum cover, still uses the OE lower plenum.
Doug already has done a dual TB setup on one of his plenums, couldn't control the second that well and it kept going into limp mode. So the plenum is already made. It was too hard to try to copy the pulsation to the second TB since it goes both positive and negative battery voltage.
I made a 78 mm TB and not even the Playboy car with Motec could control it (regeared the motor and other stuff to move it farther away).
Hey, the worst possible thing that can happen is that I fail. Either way I got a longblock cheap. If I fail I sell it for more than I have in it, if I suceed, yippee.
I'll know more once i get it here and can dig into it.
Doug already has done a dual TB setup on one of his plenums, couldn't control the second that well and it kept going into limp mode. So the plenum is already made. It was too hard to try to copy the pulsation to the second TB since it goes both positive and negative battery voltage.
I made a 78 mm TB and not even the Playboy car with Motec could control it (regeared the motor and other stuff to move it farther away).
Hey, the worst possible thing that can happen is that I fail. Either way I got a longblock cheap. If I fail I sell it for more than I have in it, if I suceed, yippee.
I'll know more once i get it here and can dig into it.
07-21-2008, 04:45 AM
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Originally Posted by SOLO-350Z
How can you put a Crawford plenum on a HR?! There is no possible way without redoing the whole plenum. No one has done it, Motordyne and other vendors have verified it isn't possible.
I don't understand why everyone is so uptight about this. I'm an engineer, I do this stuff everyday (not Nissan parts specifically). It is a project, I really doubt there is a bolt on solution, yet. Just relax, lets see what comes of this. I've got a few weeks before I get the motor, lets just take it easy until then.
07-21-2008, 06:23 AM
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Are you looking to use the HR ECU, the DE ECU, or a stand alone?
If you go with the DE I don't think you will have much luck (tbs and cam timing will be tough to work out). If you go with an HR you may run in to trouble with the CAN bus being different and not integrating with the OEM electronics (may or may not be a big problem). If you go stand alone I think it will work out really well. I read you wanted to do "cheap" though, not sure if stand alone is considered "cheap".
Did you do any other work on the Playboy cars? I have a buddy who turned a few wrenches on them.
If you go with the DE I don't think you will have much luck (tbs and cam timing will be tough to work out). If you go with an HR you may run in to trouble with the CAN bus being different and not integrating with the OEM electronics (may or may not be a big problem). If you go stand alone I think it will work out really well. I read you wanted to do "cheap" though, not sure if stand alone is considered "cheap".
Did you do any other work on the Playboy cars? I have a buddy who turned a few wrenches on them.
07-21-2008, 06:49 AM
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Originally Posted by KPierson
Are you looking to use the HR ECU, the DE ECU, or a stand alone?
If you go with the DE I don't think you will have much luck (tbs and cam timing will be tough to work out). If you go with an HR you may run in to trouble with the CAN bus being different and not integrating with the OEM electronics (may or may not be a big problem). If you go stand alone I think it will work out really well. I read you wanted to do "cheap" though, not sure if stand alone is considered "cheap".
Did you do any other work on the Playboy cars? I have a buddy who turned a few wrenches on them.
If you go with the DE I don't think you will have much luck (tbs and cam timing will be tough to work out). If you go with an HR you may run in to trouble with the CAN bus being different and not integrating with the OEM electronics (may or may not be a big problem). If you go stand alone I think it will work out really well. I read you wanted to do "cheap" though, not sure if stand alone is considered "cheap".
Did you do any other work on the Playboy cars? I have a buddy who turned a few wrenches on them.
I didn't actually work on the car, I made a 78mm TB that we just couldn't get to tune. It made power for sure, for a short time until the ECU went into limp mode. Doug sent it to the PLayboy team to see if they could do anything with it. I don't know if they really fooled with it much or not but they returned it. The part that was killing Doug, was when the voltage did not match the feedback with the stock ECu and UTEC. I figured with a standalone that could be ignored or tuned around.
This will be one ugly Hybrid if I can get it to work, but WTH I like a puzzle.
07-29-2008, 11:48 PM
#32
DE heads are different than the HR heads. Especially the intake ports. This little fact alone means you will not be able to use a DE lower plenum on the HR, not to mention the other problem of the HR having a taller deck height, which means that the lower plenum will not cover the wider spacing between the heads.
The taller deck height also means the front covers are not interchangeable between the DE and HR, which means your accessory mounting brackets from a DE engine will not work. Whether or not the alternator and power steering pump is the same between the engines and you just need the HR mounting brackets, I don't know. The serpentine belt is also not the same, (HR belt is slightly wider, iirc) and so I believe the HR uses different accessory pulleys to accommodate this.
The intake cam phasing between the DE and HR are not the same units, and are not interchangeable between the DE and HR heads.
Good luck with this project. I would think that using a HR long block would be easier (and cheaper) than trying to adapt DE parts to the HR short block. But, if you like custom work- go nuts.
Will
The taller deck height also means the front covers are not interchangeable between the DE and HR, which means your accessory mounting brackets from a DE engine will not work. Whether or not the alternator and power steering pump is the same between the engines and you just need the HR mounting brackets, I don't know. The serpentine belt is also not the same, (HR belt is slightly wider, iirc) and so I believe the HR uses different accessory pulleys to accommodate this.
The intake cam phasing between the DE and HR are not the same units, and are not interchangeable between the DE and HR heads.
Good luck with this project. I would think that using a HR long block would be easier (and cheaper) than trying to adapt DE parts to the HR short block. But, if you like custom work- go nuts.
Will
07-30-2008, 06:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Resolute
DE heads are different than the HR heads. Especially the intake ports. This little fact alone means you will not be able to use a DE lower plenum on the HR, not to mention the other problem of the HR having a taller deck height, which means that the lower plenum will not cover the wider spacing between the heads.
The taller deck height also means the front covers are not interchangeable between the DE and HR, which means your accessory mounting brackets from a DE engine will not work. Whether or not the alternator and power steering pump is the same between the engines and you just need the HR mounting brackets, I don't know. The serpentine belt is also not the same, (HR belt is slightly wider, iirc) and so I believe the HR uses different accessory pulleys to accommodate this.
The intake cam phasing between the DE and HR are not the same units, and are not interchangeable between the DE and HR heads.
Good luck with this project. I would think that using a HR long block would be easier (and cheaper) than trying to adapt DE parts to the HR short block. But, if you like custom work- go nuts.
Will
The taller deck height also means the front covers are not interchangeable between the DE and HR, which means your accessory mounting brackets from a DE engine will not work. Whether or not the alternator and power steering pump is the same between the engines and you just need the HR mounting brackets, I don't know. The serpentine belt is also not the same, (HR belt is slightly wider, iirc) and so I believe the HR uses different accessory pulleys to accommodate this.
The intake cam phasing between the DE and HR are not the same units, and are not interchangeable between the DE and HR heads.
Good luck with this project. I would think that using a HR long block would be easier (and cheaper) than trying to adapt DE parts to the HR short block. But, if you like custom work- go nuts.
Will
I'm sure I can get an alternator to mount up and can make brakets if neccesary to mount the power steering. Getting a belt to work is the minimal chore in all of this.
The creative part will be the plenum, even if I have to make someting like the Kenetix SSR, but split it into two sides, or redo the vavle covers so that I can bring the TBs out of the sides rahter than the rear. It will be creative and entertaining.
07-30-2008, 06:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Resolute
DE heads are different than the HR heads. Especially the intake ports. This little fact alone means you will not be able to use a DE lower plenum on the HR, not to mention the other problem of the HR having a taller deck height, which means that the lower plenum will not cover the wider spacing between the heads.
The taller deck height also means the front covers are not interchangeable between the DE and HR, which means your accessory mounting brackets from a DE engine will not work. Whether or not the alternator and power steering pump is the same between the engines and you just need the HR mounting brackets, I don't know. The serpentine belt is also not the same, (HR belt is slightly wider, iirc) and so I believe the HR uses different accessory pulleys to accommodate this.
The intake cam phasing between the DE and HR are not the same units, and are not interchangeable between the DE and HR heads.
Good luck with this project. I would think that using a HR long block would be easier (and cheaper) than trying to adapt DE parts to the HR short block. But, if you like custom work- go nuts.
Will
The taller deck height also means the front covers are not interchangeable between the DE and HR, which means your accessory mounting brackets from a DE engine will not work. Whether or not the alternator and power steering pump is the same between the engines and you just need the HR mounting brackets, I don't know. The serpentine belt is also not the same, (HR belt is slightly wider, iirc) and so I believe the HR uses different accessory pulleys to accommodate this.
The intake cam phasing between the DE and HR are not the same units, and are not interchangeable between the DE and HR heads.
Good luck with this project. I would think that using a HR long block would be easier (and cheaper) than trying to adapt DE parts to the HR short block. But, if you like custom work- go nuts.
Will
07-30-2008, 07:03 AM
#38
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Originally Posted by jeffie7
I don't understand why people want to do things like this, unless its for 100% bragging rights for being different, why waste the time and money on it?
lots of time and money will be wasted for a pretty small return.
lots of time and money will be wasted for a pretty small return.
1. Much better motor to start with
2. Getting air into the motor is key to making power
2.a. Dual TBs do this better than one
2.b. Dual 69mm are better than whatever size the HR has (Custom plenum)
3.c. Will need big a$$ cams to pull this off (GTM stage 2 cams)
4.d. Will need headers than can make that much scavageing to pull this off (Xerd of Crawford)
3. I road drive course, I need power all accross the power band and I don't like a lot of engine drama. everyone I know that has gone FI has engine drama. IMO NA is the way to go. I'm aiming for 350WHP NA, if i make it fine, if not fine. I'm an engineer, this is a hobby and a toy. I have a perfectly running (and brand new) DE motor. IF this takes a while, big deal. This is like a jog saw puzzle for me. I have a machine shop with enough tooling to do most of what I need. Outside of that I have several local fabricators.
So far my cost is:
$350 for a HR longblock (paid)
budgeted
~$1000 assorted OE parts:
>> Cam position sensors
>> Wiring harness
Extra DE parts I aready have sitting around
DE long block with all accesories (if any work great, if not do something else)
Dual DE TBs
Dual DE MAFs
~$5000 Custom stuff planned
Plenum
Stand alone ECU or an HR ECU if my tuner thinks it will even start the car
It is hard to do a proper motor build for less than that. I have quotes for strong NA DE builds that range from 8k to 12k. I don't think the single TB DE motor has the potential to get the air into the motor to make the kind of power that I THINK this will make.
07-30-2008, 07:04 AM
#39
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Originally Posted by dmoffitt
yup, that's racing. people will spend bouku bucks to save a few lb or make a few hp *shrugs*