HR swap into an 03
07-30-2008, 09:28 AM
#42
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im not sure why people say this is poor money management. will probly cost him the same as a DE build for NA (or boost) and will make more power than a DE build. the best DE build on here is like 320, but the HR's are making low 300's with just a couple bolt ons, its a hugely better motor (crazy cause the DE is really great too). even if he decides to boost later, he will be able to safely make stock block what many DE's make with mild builds.
Good luck man, the HR is great and i would love to have one. dont forget to get the hood though, or make lower motor mounts so you dont hit the hood. personally id go bump hood cause IMO its teh secks
Good luck man, the HR is great and i would love to have one. dont forget to get the hood though, or make lower motor mounts so you dont hit the hood. personally id go bump hood cause IMO its teh secks
07-30-2008, 01:58 PM
#43
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Originally Posted by Hoooper
im not sure why people say this is poor money management. will probly cost him the same as a DE build for NA (or boost) and will make more power than a DE build. the best DE build on here is like 320, but the HR's are making low 300's with just a couple bolt ons, its a hugely better motor (crazy cause the DE is really great too). even if he decides to boost later, he will be able to safely make stock block what many DE's make with mild builds.
Good luck man, the HR is great and i would love to have one. dont forget to get the hood though, or make lower motor mounts so you dont hit the hood. personally id go bump hood cause IMO its teh secks
Good luck man, the HR is great and i would love to have one. dont forget to get the hood though, or make lower motor mounts so you dont hit the hood. personally id go bump hood cause IMO its teh secks
Thanks for the positives
I'm gonna try to keep it under the 03 hood. I'm using the solid motor mounts and the HR motor sits lower already, if I can lower it more I'll chuck the mounts up in the lathe and turn them down.
With the HR block sittinig lower it is even better for Road course stuff
07-30-2008, 02:09 PM
#45
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Originally Posted by Hoooper
yessir, lower center of gravity FTW
07-30-2008, 03:02 PM
#46
Originally Posted by Lightning Guy
I think there will be a significant return:
1. Much better motor to start with
2. Getting air into the motor is key to making power
2.a. Dual TBs do this better than one
2.b. Dual 69mm are better than whatever size the HR has (Custom plenum)
3.c. Will need big a$$ cams to pull this off (GTM stage 2 cams)
4.d. Will need headers than can make that much scavageing to pull this off (Xerd of Crawford)
3. I road drive course, I need power all accross the power band and I don't like a lot of engine drama. everyone I know that has gone FI has engine drama. IMO NA is the way to go. I'm aiming for 350WHP NA, if i make it fine, if not fine. I'm an engineer, this is a hobby and a toy. I have a perfectly running (and brand new) DE motor. IF this takes a while, big deal. This is like a jog saw puzzle for me. I have a machine shop with enough tooling to do most of what I need. Outside of that I have several local fabricators.
So far my cost is:
$350 for a HR longblock (paid)
budgeted
~$1000 assorted OE parts:
>> Cam position sensors
>> Wiring harness
Extra DE parts I aready have sitting around
DE long block with all accesories (if any work great, if not do something else)
Dual DE TBs
Dual DE MAFs
~$5000 Custom stuff planned
Plenum
Stand alone ECU or an HR ECU if my tuner thinks it will even start the car
It is hard to do a proper motor build for less than that. I have quotes for strong NA DE builds that range from 8k to 12k. I don't think the single TB DE motor has the potential to get the air into the motor to make the kind of power that I THINK this will make.
1. Much better motor to start with
2. Getting air into the motor is key to making power
2.a. Dual TBs do this better than one
2.b. Dual 69mm are better than whatever size the HR has (Custom plenum)
3.c. Will need big a$$ cams to pull this off (GTM stage 2 cams)
4.d. Will need headers than can make that much scavageing to pull this off (Xerd of Crawford)
3. I road drive course, I need power all accross the power band and I don't like a lot of engine drama. everyone I know that has gone FI has engine drama. IMO NA is the way to go. I'm aiming for 350WHP NA, if i make it fine, if not fine. I'm an engineer, this is a hobby and a toy. I have a perfectly running (and brand new) DE motor. IF this takes a while, big deal. This is like a jog saw puzzle for me. I have a machine shop with enough tooling to do most of what I need. Outside of that I have several local fabricators.
So far my cost is:
$350 for a HR longblock (paid)
budgeted
~$1000 assorted OE parts:
>> Cam position sensors
>> Wiring harness
Extra DE parts I aready have sitting around
DE long block with all accesories (if any work great, if not do something else)
Dual DE TBs
Dual DE MAFs
~$5000 Custom stuff planned
Plenum
Stand alone ECU or an HR ECU if my tuner thinks it will even start the car
It is hard to do a proper motor build for less than that. I have quotes for strong NA DE builds that range from 8k to 12k. I don't think the single TB DE motor has the potential to get the air into the motor to make the kind of power that I THINK this will make.
Or you could spend $4000.00 for a Turbonetics single turbo kit, do ZERO bolt ons other then the turbo kit and make 350WHP easy.
Turbonetics always has a lot of bad press but I've yet to hear of one person who has a stock setup + turbonetics kit that has had issues. People are either running aftermarket parts, or trying to make more boost. If you want to do bolt on parts like exhaust, invest in a Utec and you'll be good to go.
The other option is a procharger, again, nice setup if you leave it stock with out trying to get more power out of it, If you think you'll be happy with a N/A car, you'll **** yourself with joy once you get boosted.
I saw this all the time in the Honda world, There's always N/A guys who would much rather spend more money for less.
Each to their own but I do think this swap would be a pain and cost too much for the little benefit. Even if you do have hookups. Hey, it's your car, you can do as you wish.
10 hour turbo/pro charger install > > > > > 20+ for custom engine swap that will make little more power then stock.
07-30-2008, 05:58 PM
#48
Originally Posted by Hoooper
350whp NA on an HR>>>>>>>>>>>>>350 turbo WHP on a DE
too bad at that point I'd never want to drive it daily. 350WHP on the TN setup would make for a very good street car, as with the procharger.
07-30-2008, 05:58 PM
#49
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Originally Posted by jeffie7
Or you could spend $4000.00 for a Turbonetics single turbo kit, do ZERO bolt ons other then the turbo kit and make 350WHP easy.
Turbonetics always has a lot of bad press but I've yet to hear of one person who has a stock setup + turbonetics kit that has had issues. People are either running aftermarket parts, or trying to make more boost. If you want to do bolt on parts like exhaust, invest in a Utec and you'll be good to go.
The other option is a procharger, again, nice setup if you leave it stock with out trying to get more power out of it, If you think you'll be happy with a N/A car, you'll **** yourself with joy once you get boosted.
I saw this all the time in the Honda world, There's always N/A guys who would much rather spend more money for less.
Each to their own but I do think this swap would be a pain and cost too much for the little benefit. Even if you do have hookups. Hey, it's your car, you can do as you wish.
10 hour turbo/pro charger install > > > > > 20+ for custom engine swap that will make little more power then stock.
Turbonetics always has a lot of bad press but I've yet to hear of one person who has a stock setup + turbonetics kit that has had issues. People are either running aftermarket parts, or trying to make more boost. If you want to do bolt on parts like exhaust, invest in a Utec and you'll be good to go.
The other option is a procharger, again, nice setup if you leave it stock with out trying to get more power out of it, If you think you'll be happy with a N/A car, you'll **** yourself with joy once you get boosted.
I saw this all the time in the Honda world, There's always N/A guys who would much rather spend more money for less.
Each to their own but I do think this swap would be a pain and cost too much for the little benefit. Even if you do have hookups. Hey, it's your car, you can do as you wish.
10 hour turbo/pro charger install > > > > > 20+ for custom engine swap that will make little more power then stock.
As far as boost goes, been there done that. Before I started tracking the Z I did it in a Lightning (hence the screen name). I had the power and the torque all day long. I put a Ferrari (moneywise) into that Ford, and it would do things that no other pickup could do. I was lapping Vipers and Vettes at the track. I also had an FC RX7 that was bone stock. I bought a Z for several reasons, #1 being the community and #2 being to save money.
IMO there is no way to safely boost a VQ for road racing, there is just too much load on the motor. Drifting, no problem there is no load on the motor. Drag racing, no problem except the drive train was setup to be a medium powered NA car. Autocross, again no problem it is over very quickly and it is all 2nd gear stuff for the most part.
I end up in 5th gear at Road Atlanta, VIR, Roebling Road and for a long time. I've seen friends with high quality, no corners cut, great FI installs by several different shops and none of them can take long 5th/6th gear pulls without drama.
If I were just trying to make XXX WHP, that would be easy. I'm not looking to break any HP records, I don't have that kind of money, I'll leave that to the big dogs, i.e. Sharif, Russell, and other tuners. I'm trying to make a reliabe, decent HP, Higer RPM motor, that in my opinion, be amazing in a road course situation.
I've got nothing against hair dryers of any sort, I've had enough of them I know theie ups and downs, it just wont work for my application on a VQ. At worst case, if I fail, I still have a full HR long block that I can sell off at a profit, I will have plenty of extra DE parts (that I will probably need at some point), and a few custom pieces that will become garage art or a flower pot.
07-30-2008, 06:00 PM
#50
Originally Posted by Lightning Guy
Show me a FI setup that will consistently run a long 5th/6th gear loaded pull down the back straight at Road Atlanta on a VQ. You can set it on a Dyno all day long in 5th gear, even a "loaded" dyno, but wind resistance at +140mph will add extra load that an aluminum block with boost can't deal with.
As far as boost goes, been there done that. Before I started tracking the Z I did it in a Lightning (hence the screen name). I had the power and the torque all day long. I put a Ferrari (moneywise) into that Ford, and it would do things that no other pickup could do. I was lapping Vipers and Vettes at the track. I also had an FC RX7 that was bone stock. I bought a Z for several reasons, #1 being the community and #2 being to save money.
IMO there is no way to safely boost a VQ for road racing, there is just too much load on the motor. Drifting, no problem there is no load on the motor. Drag racing, no problem except the drive train was setup to be a medium powered NA car. Autocross, again no problem it is over very quickly and it is all 2nd gear stuff for the most part.
I end up in 5th gear at Road Atlanta, VIR, Roebling Road and for a long time. I've seen friends with high quality, no corners cut, great FI installs by several different shops and none of them can take long 5th/6th gear pulls without drama.
If I were just trying to make XXX WHP, that would be easy. I'm not looking to break any HP records, I don't have that kind of money, I'll leave that to the big dogs, i.e. Sharif, Russell, and other tuners. I'm trying to make a reliabe, decent HP, Higer RPM motor, that in my opinion, be amazing in a road course situation.
I've got nothing against hair dryers of any sort, I've had enough of them I know theie ups and downs, it just wont work for my application on a VQ. At worst case, if I fail, I still have a full HR long block that I can sell off at a profit, I will have plenty of extra DE parts (that I will probably need at some point), and a few custom pieces that will become garage art or a flower pot.
As far as boost goes, been there done that. Before I started tracking the Z I did it in a Lightning (hence the screen name). I had the power and the torque all day long. I put a Ferrari (moneywise) into that Ford, and it would do things that no other pickup could do. I was lapping Vipers and Vettes at the track. I also had an FC RX7 that was bone stock. I bought a Z for several reasons, #1 being the community and #2 being to save money.
IMO there is no way to safely boost a VQ for road racing, there is just too much load on the motor. Drifting, no problem there is no load on the motor. Drag racing, no problem except the drive train was setup to be a medium powered NA car. Autocross, again no problem it is over very quickly and it is all 2nd gear stuff for the most part.
I end up in 5th gear at Road Atlanta, VIR, Roebling Road and for a long time. I've seen friends with high quality, no corners cut, great FI installs by several different shops and none of them can take long 5th/6th gear pulls without drama.
If I were just trying to make XXX WHP, that would be easy. I'm not looking to break any HP records, I don't have that kind of money, I'll leave that to the big dogs, i.e. Sharif, Russell, and other tuners. I'm trying to make a reliabe, decent HP, Higer RPM motor, that in my opinion, be amazing in a road course situation.
I've got nothing against hair dryers of any sort, I've had enough of them I know theie ups and downs, it just wont work for my application on a VQ. At worst case, if I fail, I still have a full HR long block that I can sell off at a profit, I will have plenty of extra DE parts (that I will probably need at some point), and a few custom pieces that will become garage art or a flower pot.
Go do it and make sure you post all the detail into a thread with pictures showing all the steps.
07-30-2008, 07:21 PM
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Originally Posted by jeffie7
I'd love to see 350WHP on a N/A motor, it would be one hell of a motor!!!!
too bad at that point I'd never want to drive it daily. 350WHP on the TN setup would make for a very good street car, as with the procharger.
too bad at that point I'd never want to drive it daily. 350WHP on the TN setup would make for a very good street car, as with the procharger.
07-30-2008, 08:03 PM
#52
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Originally Posted by jeffie7
I'd love to see 350WHP on a N/A motor, it would be one hell of a motor!!!!
too bad at that point I'd never want to drive it daily. 350WHP on the TN setup would make for a very good street car, as with the procharger.
too bad at that point I'd never want to drive it daily. 350WHP on the TN setup would make for a very good street car, as with the procharger.
I takes 8 quarts of oil everytime I change the oil, I have to do my own alignments cause it sits to low to the ground, I have to do my own oil changes cause I can't get it on any rack in town, and no one carries Red Line oil anyway.
It is pretty much a toy at this point. Try living in South Carolina and driving a car with no AC, woot.
07-30-2008, 08:47 PM
#53
Originally Posted by Lightning Guy
I don't daily drive it now. No AC, No heat, No dash, no interior, rollbar, racing seats, fire extinguisher, coilovers, wide tires, loud exhaust, hot floor pan, squeaky brakes, etc... I'm ready to buy another one just to drive every day. Crap I pretty much only take it to Z meets and track events. LOL
I takes 8 quarts of oil everytime I change the oil, I have to do my own alignments cause it sits to low to the ground, I have to do my own oil changes cause I can't get it on any rack in town, and no one carries Red Line oil anyway.
It is pretty much a toy at this point. Try living in South Carolina and driving a car with no AC, woot.
I takes 8 quarts of oil everytime I change the oil, I have to do my own alignments cause it sits to low to the ground, I have to do my own oil changes cause I can't get it on any rack in town, and no one carries Red Line oil anyway.
It is pretty much a toy at this point. Try living in South Carolina and driving a car with no AC, woot.
I have 2pieces of 1/2" board I drive the front tires onto, I then use those U shaped jacks to jack up the rear tires, I then use the jack with the towel on it to lift the rear of the car by the rear end, towel is to protect the paint of the rear bumper cover, once the rear is up I can put jack stands under the rear side of the car, then from there I can jack the front up then place jack stands up front. All of this to change the damn oil.
However, I make more then 350WHP and still have my A/C and use it all the time =)
The thought of a random shop working on my car makes me feel sick.
07-31-2008, 07:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Lightning Guy
Crawford plenum is only the upper plenum cover, still uses the OE lower plenum.
Doug already has done a dual TB setup on one of his plenums, couldn't control the second that well and it kept going into limp mode. So the plenum is already made. It was too hard to try to copy the pulsation to the second TB since it goes both positive and negative battery voltage.
I made a 78 mm TB and not even the Playboy car with Motec could control it (regeared the motor and other stuff to move it farther away).
Hey, the worst possible thing that can happen is that I fail. Either way I got a longblock cheap. If I fail I sell it for more than I have in it, if I suceed, yippee.
I'll know more once i get it here and can dig into it.
Doug already has done a dual TB setup on one of his plenums, couldn't control the second that well and it kept going into limp mode. So the plenum is already made. It was too hard to try to copy the pulsation to the second TB since it goes both positive and negative battery voltage.
I made a 78 mm TB and not even the Playboy car with Motec could control it (regeared the motor and other stuff to move it farther away).
Hey, the worst possible thing that can happen is that I fail. Either way I got a longblock cheap. If I fail I sell it for more than I have in it, if I suceed, yippee.
I'll know more once i get it here and can dig into it.
07-31-2008, 07:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Lightning Guy
Something like this is exactly what I need assuming I can modify the lower intake manifold to fit.
Look, I admire what you're doing. Props for the attempt. I just think that this is going to be a massive amount of work for moderate (at best) gains.
07-31-2008, 07:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Amarao
Source Plz :E
Good luck with the project dude.
07-31-2008, 07:21 AM
#59
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Originally Posted by Lightning Guy
...I don't daily drive it now. No AC, No heat, No dash, no interior, rollbar, racing seats, fire extinguisher, coilovers, wide tires, loud exhaust, hot floor pan, squeaky brakes, etc...
Pics please...