Someone is working on an intake manifold for us
04-22-2010, 05:09 PM
#101
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I mean, this has little impact on me but I've been following some of the threads dealing with modeling for intake manifolds for I6's and seen some things I wouldn't have expected in terms of pressure zones.
04-22-2010, 08:39 PM
#102
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S&R Performance is developing this and it will be S&R's product. S&R is building our time attack car an is one of my sponsors. My involvement in the intake is to help with testing, getting it in production and so forth. The owner of S&R has become a close friend of mine and I am merely lending a hand with getting it to market.
S&R does a lot of big builds and tons of custom work. It is due time these "custom" things go to production so that others can benifit from their work at a fraction of the cost.
S&R does a lot of big builds and tons of custom work. It is due time these "custom" things go to production so that others can benifit from their work at a fraction of the cost.
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04-26-2010, 01:15 PM
#109
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Looking forward to seeing the results.
04-28-2010, 10:29 AM
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Here is how the dyno plan is going to go.
The first dyno will be an HR with every bolt on already tuned. A few pulls will be done to get a baseline. Then we will put the intake on and do a few more pulls. Then we will re-tune if need be and do a few more dyno runs.
The second will be a stock HR, no tune and go through the same process as stated above.
Our goal is to get the HR guys the extra numbers to get them over 300RWHP NA with just bolt on's.
This should give us all the info we need. The FI tests will be done in about 3-4 weeks when the motor for our time attack NISMO goes in. This motor is built to the highest extreme and outside of someone building a race car, no one "person" would ever go this far unless they had over 100k laying around they wanted to blow.
The next plan will be to try a few FI HR's to see what the gains are for them.
HR's that are FI are what really need this thing. The stock plenum is plastic which will only hold a certain amount of boost and could break or leak under too much pressure or constant variable pressure. Also, the plastic plenum could flex under pressure which could make it's flow change conciderably which could lead to power loss. Whether or not it gives gains for FI'd HR's doesn't matter too much. What matters most is that it's metal and will hold the boost pressure and do it with a consistant flow.
I may be forgetting some other reasons that pushed us in the direction of making this so Bobby or Taylor can chime in to add to this if need be.
The first dyno will be an HR with every bolt on already tuned. A few pulls will be done to get a baseline. Then we will put the intake on and do a few more pulls. Then we will re-tune if need be and do a few more dyno runs.
The second will be a stock HR, no tune and go through the same process as stated above.
Our goal is to get the HR guys the extra numbers to get them over 300RWHP NA with just bolt on's.
This should give us all the info we need. The FI tests will be done in about 3-4 weeks when the motor for our time attack NISMO goes in. This motor is built to the highest extreme and outside of someone building a race car, no one "person" would ever go this far unless they had over 100k laying around they wanted to blow.
The next plan will be to try a few FI HR's to see what the gains are for them.
HR's that are FI are what really need this thing. The stock plenum is plastic which will only hold a certain amount of boost and could break or leak under too much pressure or constant variable pressure. Also, the plastic plenum could flex under pressure which could make it's flow change conciderably which could lead to power loss. Whether or not it gives gains for FI'd HR's doesn't matter too much. What matters most is that it's metal and will hold the boost pressure and do it with a consistant flow.
I may be forgetting some other reasons that pushed us in the direction of making this so Bobby or Taylor can chime in to add to this if need be.
Last edited by GAMERMODZoCOM; 04-28-2010 at 10:32 AM.
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04-28-2010, 11:15 AM
#113
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Here is how the dyno plan is going to go.
The first dyno will be an HR with every bolt on already tuned. A few pulls will be done to get a baseline. Then we will put the intake on and do a few more pulls. Then we will re-tune if need be and do a few more dyno runs.
The second will be a stock HR, no tune and go through the same process as stated above.
Our goal is to get the HR guys the extra numbers to get them over 300RWHP NA with just bolt on's.
This should give us all the info we need. The FI tests will be done in about 3-4 weeks when the motor for our time attack NISMO goes in. This motor is built to the highest extreme and outside of someone building a race car, no one "person" would ever go this far unless they had over 100k laying around they wanted to blow.
The next plan will be to try a few FI HR's to see what the gains are for them.
HR's that are FI are what really need this thing. The stock plenum is plastic which will only hold a certain amount of boost and could break or leak under too much pressure or constant variable pressure. Also, the plastic plenum could flex under pressure which could make it's flow change conciderably which could lead to power loss. Whether or not it gives gains for FI'd HR's doesn't matter too much. What matters most is that it's metal and will hold the boost pressure and do it with a consistant flow.
I may be forgetting some other reasons that pushed us in the direction of making this so Bobby or Taylor can chime in to add to this if need be.
The first dyno will be an HR with every bolt on already tuned. A few pulls will be done to get a baseline. Then we will put the intake on and do a few more pulls. Then we will re-tune if need be and do a few more dyno runs.
The second will be a stock HR, no tune and go through the same process as stated above.
Our goal is to get the HR guys the extra numbers to get them over 300RWHP NA with just bolt on's.
This should give us all the info we need. The FI tests will be done in about 3-4 weeks when the motor for our time attack NISMO goes in. This motor is built to the highest extreme and outside of someone building a race car, no one "person" would ever go this far unless they had over 100k laying around they wanted to blow.
The next plan will be to try a few FI HR's to see what the gains are for them.
HR's that are FI are what really need this thing. The stock plenum is plastic which will only hold a certain amount of boost and could break or leak under too much pressure or constant variable pressure. Also, the plastic plenum could flex under pressure which could make it's flow change conciderably which could lead to power loss. Whether or not it gives gains for FI'd HR's doesn't matter too much. What matters most is that it's metal and will hold the boost pressure and do it with a consistant flow.
I may be forgetting some other reasons that pushed us in the direction of making this so Bobby or Taylor can chime in to add to this if need be.
04-28-2010, 02:56 PM
#114
Here is how the dyno plan is going to go.
The first dyno will be an HR with every bolt on already tuned. A few pulls will be done to get a baseline. Then we will put the intake on and do a few more pulls. Then we will re-tune if need be and do a few more dyno runs.
The second will be a stock HR, no tune and go through the same process as stated above.
The first dyno will be an HR with every bolt on already tuned. A few pulls will be done to get a baseline. Then we will put the intake on and do a few more pulls. Then we will re-tune if need be and do a few more dyno runs.
The second will be a stock HR, no tune and go through the same process as stated above.
If the design can extract power out of an NA setup, be it from a stock car or a bolt-on car, it will most certainly pay off under a boosted application. Even on a boosted vehicle, the nature of air flow is still across pressure differentials and pressure gradients, the deltas between max pressure and minimum pressure of the system are just greater. There are certain circumstances under extremely high boost where the extreme pressure differentials would lead to very high flow rates that would certainly limit designs based around a naturally aspirated engine. For most people this will probably never be an issue.
I think this largely describes the general consensus on the Cosworth manifold as well. As the information has unfolded recently, it just doesn't make the kind of power everyone thought it would, and always followed by the disclaimer that only under certain "extreme" builds would it be worthwhile. Forced induction is a bit of a misnomer, in that it's not actually forcing air into the engine, it's only "forced" relative to an atmospheric engine. All the compressor really does is store a base charge within the piping like a stationary air compressor (forgive the crude/simplistic analogy) but it's not forcing anything anywhere. The engine still relies on natural flow characteristics and relative vacuum inside the cylinder for filling, just the air pressure is simply larger.
I guess what I'm trying to get at is, if this thing gains on an NA car, it'll for sure gain on a turbo/sc car as well. (Except extreme builds)
Last edited by T_K; 04-28-2010 at 02:57 PM.
04-28-2010, 03:30 PM
#115
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Only the first part of this post is directed at the quote, the rest is just me rambling on about some thoughts...
If the design can extract power out of an NA setup, be it from a stock car or a bolt-on car, it will most certainly pay off under a boosted application. Even on a boosted vehicle, the nature of air flow is still across pressure differentials and pressure gradients, the deltas between max pressure and minimum pressure of the system are just greater. There are certain circumstances under extremely high boost where the extreme pressure differentials would lead to very high flow rates that would certainly limit designs based around a naturally aspirated engine. For most people this will probably never be an issue.
I think this largely describes the general consensus on the Cosworth manifold as well. As the information has unfolded recently, it just doesn't make the kind of power everyone thought it would, and always followed by the disclaimer that only under certain "extreme" builds would it be worthwhile. Forced induction is a bit of a misnomer, in that it's not actually forcing air into the engine, it's only "forced" relative to an atmospheric engine. All the compressor really does is store a base charge within the piping like a stationary air compressor (forgive the crude/simplistic analogy) but it's not forcing anything anywhere. The engine still relies on natural flow characteristics and relative vacuum inside the cylinder for filling, just the air pressure is simply larger.
I guess what I'm trying to get at is, if this thing gains on an NA car, it'll for sure gain on a turbo/sc car as well. (Except extreme builds)
If the design can extract power out of an NA setup, be it from a stock car or a bolt-on car, it will most certainly pay off under a boosted application. Even on a boosted vehicle, the nature of air flow is still across pressure differentials and pressure gradients, the deltas between max pressure and minimum pressure of the system are just greater. There are certain circumstances under extremely high boost where the extreme pressure differentials would lead to very high flow rates that would certainly limit designs based around a naturally aspirated engine. For most people this will probably never be an issue.
I think this largely describes the general consensus on the Cosworth manifold as well. As the information has unfolded recently, it just doesn't make the kind of power everyone thought it would, and always followed by the disclaimer that only under certain "extreme" builds would it be worthwhile. Forced induction is a bit of a misnomer, in that it's not actually forcing air into the engine, it's only "forced" relative to an atmospheric engine. All the compressor really does is store a base charge within the piping like a stationary air compressor (forgive the crude/simplistic analogy) but it's not forcing anything anywhere. The engine still relies on natural flow characteristics and relative vacuum inside the cylinder for filling, just the air pressure is simply larger.
I guess what I'm trying to get at is, if this thing gains on an NA car, it'll for sure gain on a turbo/sc car as well. (Except extreme builds)
Also, while I am not a mechanic or anything close to, I think your explanation on the way forced induction works seems right to me BUT I think you misunderstand the dynamic behind it that gives it the name "forced induction".
Let me see if I can explain it. While you are not "forcing" air in to the cylinder, you are keeping say 9 or more (piping, intercooler, and plenum) cubic feet of air pressurized with whatever your PSI level is. This stays pressurized until an intake valve on a cylinder head opens then the built up pressure forces itself in to the cylinder instead of only being pulled by vaccum. Of course you are adding more cubic feet of air (the cubic feet of space in the open cylinder while the piston is down) so your PSI decreases (your boost pressure is measured before it enters the cylinder) however, the loss is probably around .1% or less. As long as the turbo is spinning and forcing air through the intercooler, up the piping, through the plenum and down the runners as each valve opens, it takes some of it.
While its not directly forcing air in to each cylinder, it is creating pressure which "forces" it's way in to the cylinder when the intake valve opens. The forced air is much strong than the small vacuum created by the downward moving piston. If the piston created more vacuum than the boost that was being provided, there would be no performance gain or even performance loss. On the HR, gains are seen with as little as 2PSI.
Again, I am not a mechanic so if I have this wrong, please correct me.
Last edited by GAMERMODZoCOM; 04-28-2010 at 03:38 PM.
04-28-2010, 07:49 PM
#119
I am not a mechanic but know a little about how this works like you. I think that on low boost applications they would see a power gain like the NA folks however I think it will be a lower percentage. I think the benifit of it being metal is the most important thing for FI people. The reason we started this is because we absolutely, without a doubt, needed to make one for our car. The stock plenum would not hold 30PSI for very long, if at all. For my application, at 30psi, it probably won't produce gains. At that type of pressure, flow probably stopped making a difference many PSI ago. So, since it must be made for me, we are developing it to benifit everyone more than me. lol
Also, while I am not a mechanic or anything close to, I think your explanation on the way forced induction works seems right to me BUT I think you misunderstand the dynamic behind it that gives it the name "forced induction".
Let me see if I can explain it. While you are not "forcing" air in to the cylinder, you are keeping say 9 or more (piping, intercooler, and plenum) cubic feet of air pressurized with whatever your PSI level is. This stays pressurized until an intake valve on a cylinder head opens then the built up pressure forces itself in to the cylinder instead of only being pulled by vaccum. Of course you are adding more cubic feet of air (the cubic feet of space in the open cylinder while the piston is down) so your PSI decreases (your boost pressure is measured before it enters the cylinder) however, the loss is probably around .1% or less. As long as the turbo is spinning and forcing air through the intercooler, up the piping, through the plenum and down the runners as each valve opens, it takes some of it.
While its not directly forcing air in to each cylinder, it is creating pressure which "forces" it's way in to the cylinder when the intake valve opens. The forced air is much strong than the small vacuum created by the downward moving piston. If the piston created more vacuum than the boost that was being provided, there would be no performance gain or even performance loss. On the HR, gains are seen with as little as 2PSI.
Again, I am not a mechanic so if I have this wrong, please correct me.
Also, while I am not a mechanic or anything close to, I think your explanation on the way forced induction works seems right to me BUT I think you misunderstand the dynamic behind it that gives it the name "forced induction".
Let me see if I can explain it. While you are not "forcing" air in to the cylinder, you are keeping say 9 or more (piping, intercooler, and plenum) cubic feet of air pressurized with whatever your PSI level is. This stays pressurized until an intake valve on a cylinder head opens then the built up pressure forces itself in to the cylinder instead of only being pulled by vaccum. Of course you are adding more cubic feet of air (the cubic feet of space in the open cylinder while the piston is down) so your PSI decreases (your boost pressure is measured before it enters the cylinder) however, the loss is probably around .1% or less. As long as the turbo is spinning and forcing air through the intercooler, up the piping, through the plenum and down the runners as each valve opens, it takes some of it.
While its not directly forcing air in to each cylinder, it is creating pressure which "forces" it's way in to the cylinder when the intake valve opens. The forced air is much strong than the small vacuum created by the downward moving piston. If the piston created more vacuum than the boost that was being provided, there would be no performance gain or even performance loss. On the HR, gains are seen with as little as 2PSI.
Again, I am not a mechanic so if I have this wrong, please correct me.
All fluids flow from higher pressure to lower pressure, the larger the difference between the 2, the faster it can flow, within the limits of the actual pipe.
On a naturally aspirated engine, the base pressure the engine operates under is atmospheric, ~15psi. A turbo at 10psi, is adding 10psi on top of that, so although the gauge reads 10psi, it's reading as if atmosphere is zero. The actual pressure of the air charge is ~25psi.
Unfortunately, in practice, the intake manifolds on a naturally aspirated engine never quite see the full atmospheric pressure since that value is measured when the air has zero velocity. Once the air starts moving, it trades its pressure energy for kinetic energy, and the manifold itself probably sees something in the range of 2-3psi under atmospheric, or on a vacuum gauge a negative value.
04-29-2010, 07:24 AM
#120
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The vacuum doesn't actually "pull" the air in. The term vacuum is just a way to represent the pressure difference between some arbitrary zero point, which happens to be the atmospheric pressure of 14.7psi, or 1 bar. So 3psi of vacuum would just mean the actual pressure is 11.7psi. The "vacuum gauge" could only read -14.7psi or -1 bar max, since that would represent a "total vacuum" indicative of zero psi.
All fluids flow from higher pressure to lower pressure, the larger the difference between the 2, the faster it can flow, within the limits of the actual pipe.
On a naturally aspirated engine, the base pressure the engine operates under is atmospheric, ~15psi. A turbo at 10psi, is adding 10psi on top of that, so although the gauge reads 10psi, it's reading as if atmosphere is zero. The actual pressure of the air charge is ~25psi.
Unfortunately, in practice, the intake manifolds on a naturally aspirated engine never quite see the full atmospheric pressure since that value is measured when the air has zero velocity. Once the air starts moving, it trades its pressure energy for kinetic energy, and the manifold itself probably sees something in the range of 2-3psi under atmospheric, or on a vacuum gauge a negative value.
All fluids flow from higher pressure to lower pressure, the larger the difference between the 2, the faster it can flow, within the limits of the actual pipe.
On a naturally aspirated engine, the base pressure the engine operates under is atmospheric, ~15psi. A turbo at 10psi, is adding 10psi on top of that, so although the gauge reads 10psi, it's reading as if atmosphere is zero. The actual pressure of the air charge is ~25psi.
Unfortunately, in practice, the intake manifolds on a naturally aspirated engine never quite see the full atmospheric pressure since that value is measured when the air has zero velocity. Once the air starts moving, it trades its pressure energy for kinetic energy, and the manifold itself probably sees something in the range of 2-3psi under atmospheric, or on a vacuum gauge a negative value.