Someone is working on an intake manifold for us
05-04-2010, 04:24 PM
#161
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I beg to differ. You may have special circumstances which could require such a need, but there are many boosted HRs, and not ONCE have we heard a single thing about the intake manifold. To add to this, I am in disbelief that after just a couple of weeks a small team, or for all I know, one person who is working on this, could come up with a better manifold design than what Nissan already has. If you're going boosted and have significant evidence that it can't hold your needed pressure then fine, but as far as the increase in N/A horsepower, I will hold my tongue.
05-04-2010, 06:23 PM
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I beg to differ. You may have special circumstances which could require such a need, but there are many boosted HRs, and not ONCE have we heard a single thing about the intake manifold. To add to this, I am in disbelief that after just a couple of weeks a small team, or for all I know, one person who is working on this, could come up with a better manifold design than what Nissan already has. If you're going boosted and have significant evidence that it can't hold your needed pressure then fine, but as far as the increase in N/A horsepower, I will hold my tongue.
Sure, at 10PSI, I don't think there will be an issue. Keep in mind that the HR is only a few years old and that the VHR is new. It is a matter of time before you see people pushing high boost through these motors and a metal plenum will be needed.
You think that there is no way to improve upon Nissans plenum design? Did you forget about the plenum upgrades for the DE? What about plenum upgrades for all the other cars people upgrade? Oh, I get it, you are saying they don't do anything for performance because they weren't designed by an engineer at a larger company therefore no aftermarket performance company (because none are larger than a automobile manufacturer) can make a better plenum.
Let me give you some advice you can use in life. THERE IS ALWAYS ROOM FOR IMPROVEMENT. That advice applies to everything. Nothing is perfect because no one is perfect.
Last edited by GAMERMODZoCOM; 05-04-2010 at 07:41 PM.
05-04-2010, 07:53 PM
#163
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There are many HR's running around boosted. Never said that. What is confusing to you? You don't believe that the plastic plenum could give under pressure? You don't think that if it flexes under pressure it could change the flow it was designed to do thus hindering performance?
You think that there is no way to improve upon Nissans plenum design? Did you forget about the plenum upgrades for the DE? What about plenum upgrades for all the other cars people upgrade? Oh, I get it, you are saying they don't do anything for performance because they were designed by an engineer at a larger company therefore no aftermarket performance company (because none are larger than a automobile manufacturer) can make a better plenum.
Basically, what I'm saying is you are having a manifold built for you that will allow you to hold more boost. Wonderful, this device will not just magically make more power in a N/A application because it is metal. Development and air flow characteristics need to be realized. Just throwing something together real quick that won't go boom under pressure doesn't mean squat for performance without a blower. For all we know it could have the same effect that some intakes on the HR give: less power.
Last edited by dirtbikr; 05-04-2010 at 07:54 PM.
05-04-2010, 08:12 PM
#164
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Yes, you did say that. You said that people that go FI on the HR or VHR must have this. That would imply to me that you don't understand the concept that without this manifold, boost can still happen.
People have been pushing enough boost for 600+WHP through the stock just fine. It has not been an issue thus far, and will never be a problem for any of the street driven cars. Your time attack car is the black sheep, and that's not a bad thing. Thank you for paving the way for all of the other time attack cars that are being built.
Again, I never said that there was no way. I said that a small team of people or a single person would have a very difficult time fabricating a design that would yield increased power from a N/A HR with no other modifications in an unbiased manner in such a short amount of time. How long did it take for the plenum spacers and replacement manifolds for the DE to come around? Longer than a fortnight, that's for sure. Take a motor that is designed even better than the DE, and the time should increase for development.
Thanks, I take it heartily and fully agree with it, as I never said anything to the contrary.
Basically, what I'm saying is you are having a manifold built for you that will allow you to hold more boost. Wonderful, this device will not just magically make more power in a N/A application because it is metal. Development and air flow characteristics need to be realized. Just throwing something together real quick that won't go boom under pressure doesn't mean squat for performance without a blower. For all we know it could have the same effect that some intakes on the HR give: less power.
People have been pushing enough boost for 600+WHP through the stock just fine. It has not been an issue thus far, and will never be a problem for any of the street driven cars. Your time attack car is the black sheep, and that's not a bad thing. Thank you for paving the way for all of the other time attack cars that are being built.
Again, I never said that there was no way. I said that a small team of people or a single person would have a very difficult time fabricating a design that would yield increased power from a N/A HR with no other modifications in an unbiased manner in such a short amount of time. How long did it take for the plenum spacers and replacement manifolds for the DE to come around? Longer than a fortnight, that's for sure. Take a motor that is designed even better than the DE, and the time should increase for development.
Thanks, I take it heartily and fully agree with it, as I never said anything to the contrary.
Basically, what I'm saying is you are having a manifold built for you that will allow you to hold more boost. Wonderful, this device will not just magically make more power in a N/A application because it is metal. Development and air flow characteristics need to be realized. Just throwing something together real quick that won't go boom under pressure doesn't mean squat for performance without a blower. For all we know it could have the same effect that some intakes on the HR give: less power.
The stock plenum on the HR is made of plastic and assembled from at least 3 different pieces using glue. If I had gone FI even with stock internals I would still have persued having an aftermarket one made. I guess I should have said "I personally feel that if you are FI, this is a must have". Just because they are running 600rwhp doesn't mean that plenum isn't flexing and hindering some performance and flow consistancy.
As stated from the beginning, we don't know what is going to happen with it on an NA motor.
Just because the plenum was made by an engineer at a large automotive manufacture doesn't mean they put a whole lot of time in to the plenum. They could have easily calculated minimum space requirement and decent flow. They probably didn't sit there and try to get the absolute, hands down, best flow possible from this plenum. Just the same as why you see casting seems on the heads in the intake and exaust ports. They don't try and squeeze everything out of their design. The objective of any company producing anything is to build something of good quality, for as cheap as they can.
Any decent engineer with the right software can design a better plenum if the time is invested.
Last edited by GAMERMODZoCOM; 05-04-2010 at 08:15 PM.
05-05-2010, 12:23 AM
#165
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I beg to differ. You may have special circumstances which could require such a need, but there are many boosted HRs, and not ONCE have we heard a single thing about the intake manifold. To add to this, I am in disbelief that after just a couple of weeks a small team, or for all I know, one person who is working on this, could come up with a better manifold design than what Nissan already has. If you're going boosted and have significant evidence that it can't hold your needed pressure then fine, but as far as the increase in N/A horsepower, I will hold my tongue.
Also, links to boosted HR's with stock engine with +600hp. I hope your not talking about the Greddy HR on Dsport.
+10000
05-06-2010, 05:56 AM
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I'll bet my stock mesh passenger side map pocket holder thing that it does not. But if it does.... Just think.
You'll be the winner of a JDM mesh map holder thingy. Good for at least 3whp! And I'll be the winner of an improved intake mani!
You'll be the winner of a JDM mesh map holder thingy. Good for at least 3whp! And I'll be the winner of an improved intake mani!
05-06-2010, 06:54 AM
#171
The reason plenums and spacers didn't come out right away for the 350Z was more due to company's not knowing how much of a market they had for it. This is probably the same reason no one has done one for the HR. To produce something so costly for 2 years worth of motors with the next generation of the Z being released just after would have been risky.
The stock plenum on the HR is made of plastic and assembled from at least 3 different pieces using glue. If I had gone FI even with stock internals I would still have persued having an aftermarket one made. I guess I should have said "I personally feel that if you are FI, this is a must have". Just because they are running 600rwhp doesn't mean that plenum isn't flexing and hindering some performance and flow consistancy.
As stated from the beginning, we don't know what is going to happen with it on an NA motor.
Just because the plenum was made by an engineer at a large automotive manufacture doesn't mean they put a whole lot of time in to the plenum. They could have easily calculated minimum space requirement and decent flow. They probably didn't sit there and try to get the absolute, hands down, best flow possible from this plenum. Just the same as why you see casting seems on the heads in the intake and exaust ports. They don't try and squeeze everything out of their design. The objective of any company producing anything is to build something of good quality, for as cheap as they can.
Any decent engineer with the right software can design a better plenum if the time is invested.
The stock plenum on the HR is made of plastic and assembled from at least 3 different pieces using glue. If I had gone FI even with stock internals I would still have persued having an aftermarket one made. I guess I should have said "I personally feel that if you are FI, this is a must have". Just because they are running 600rwhp doesn't mean that plenum isn't flexing and hindering some performance and flow consistancy.
As stated from the beginning, we don't know what is going to happen with it on an NA motor.
Just because the plenum was made by an engineer at a large automotive manufacture doesn't mean they put a whole lot of time in to the plenum. They could have easily calculated minimum space requirement and decent flow. They probably didn't sit there and try to get the absolute, hands down, best flow possible from this plenum. Just the same as why you see casting seems on the heads in the intake and exaust ports. They don't try and squeeze everything out of their design. The objective of any company producing anything is to build something of good quality, for as cheap as they can.
Any decent engineer with the right software can design a better plenum if the time is invested.
With that said though, I will add this; Plastic requires quite a bit of material to gain the same rigidity and strength as say for example, Aluminum. Exterior plenum dimensions to internal volume ratio, on a plastic design, would be fairly poor when compared to a similar external dimensioned metal design, of similar strength. An aluminum version that looked identical to the OEM plenum, wouldn't require as elaborate of a waffle design to maintain rigidity.
Having access to the original data and plans for the OEM manifold via manufacturer would really simplify the design process. Otherwise without really reverse engineering the OEM design, we all make our best educated decisions based on experience, and measurements.
05-06-2010, 10:26 AM
#172
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It does help though to have access to manufacturer resources, particularly the ORIGINAL design of parts, along with the data. Don't be misled into believing the material that an object is made of gives conclusive insight into its potential durability. Varying thickness and overall design, you can make parts out of different materials with the same overall durability. It's the strength/resistance of the design to stresses that will ultimately decide whether it fails or doesn't, and not just material choice.
With that said though, I will add this; Plastic requires quite a bit of material to gain the same rigidity and strength as say for example, Aluminum. Exterior plenum dimensions to internal volume ratio, on a plastic design, would be fairly poor when compared to a similar external dimensioned metal design, of similar strength. An aluminum version that looked identical to the OEM plenum, wouldn't require as elaborate of a waffle design to maintain rigidity.
Having access to the original data and plans for the OEM manifold via manufacturer would really simplify the design process. Otherwise without really reverse engineering the OEM design, we all make our best educated decisions based on experience, and measurements.
With that said though, I will add this; Plastic requires quite a bit of material to gain the same rigidity and strength as say for example, Aluminum. Exterior plenum dimensions to internal volume ratio, on a plastic design, would be fairly poor when compared to a similar external dimensioned metal design, of similar strength. An aluminum version that looked identical to the OEM plenum, wouldn't require as elaborate of a waffle design to maintain rigidity.
Having access to the original data and plans for the OEM manifold via manufacturer would really simplify the design process. Otherwise without really reverse engineering the OEM design, we all make our best educated decisions based on experience, and measurements.
Regardless of the material used in the stock plenum, boosting intake pressure by 30 psi is likely going to require more than the stock plenum. Because even if Nissan had chosen an aluminum platform, it would have been in their - and most of their buyers - best interest to design it to be as light as possible for worst-case intake pressures - NOT for 30 psi of blower.
Could an intake plenum be made strong enough to withstand it? If they can design a highly successful pistol (Glock, for example) to use plastic, methinks they can design an intake plenum for it. However, for 99.99% of us, that's too think and too heavy/expensive.
05-08-2010, 03:34 PM
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05-08-2010, 09:48 PM
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I die a little inside everytime I come back and hit "last" to take me to the most recent post and I see no plenum...... other than that I saw iron man 2. That however did not dissapoint 
except they got a different guy to play Tony's military contact... 
except they got a different guy to play Tony's military contact...
05-09-2010, 12:29 AM
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