Nitrogen filled tires - FTMFW!!!
06-01-2008, 07:15 AM
#21
LOL at this thread! be it nitrogen or good old air your ability to roll efficiently depends on the tires psi, and temperature causes the psi to fluctuate. Nitrogen lessens the psi fluctuation due to temp changes. Also, over time your tires will lose pressure, with nitrogen that loss will be up to 30% less.
The Military use nitrogen in things like aircraft because removal of oxygen removes the possibility of oxidation, fire, or explosion. Nitrogen is the easiest thing to use as a replacement for oxygen.
Some gas saving idiots over on the prius sites are inflating their tires above the max psi to get better gas millage; some as much as 30 psi over max!
The Military use nitrogen in things like aircraft because removal of oxygen removes the possibility of oxidation, fire, or explosion. Nitrogen is the easiest thing to use as a replacement for oxygen.
Some gas saving idiots over on the prius sites are inflating their tires above the max psi to get better gas millage; some as much as 30 psi over max!
06-01-2008, 09:09 AM
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Originally Posted by badkarma85
It cannot possibly be a placebo if you were told about it, so your argument is wrong.
A placebo effect occurs when you were not told about it. So in fact, it was a placebo.
While I don't believe in your actual findings, I believe in a good placebo.
You may subconsciously drive slower than before, causing the mileage to improve. There are also many other factors that come into play..
Also, it's been scientifically proven that placebos work, not in its own capacity but coupled with the positive reinforcement of the mind and subconscious efforts, the effect produces positive results. i.e. cancer patients who take glucose pills and were not told what they were, believed that they were getting better and considered these tables to be miracle pills. Drawing from very basic knowledge of oncology, we know that there's no direct relationship between glucose tablets and reduction of cancer cells.
Placebo effect.
A placebo effect occurs when you were not told about it. So in fact, it was a placebo.
While I don't believe in your actual findings, I believe in a good placebo.
You may subconsciously drive slower than before, causing the mileage to improve. There are also many other factors that come into play..
Also, it's been scientifically proven that placebos work, not in its own capacity but coupled with the positive reinforcement of the mind and subconscious efforts, the effect produces positive results. i.e. cancer patients who take glucose pills and were not told what they were, believed that they were getting better and considered these tables to be miracle pills. Drawing from very basic knowledge of oncology, we know that there's no direct relationship between glucose tablets and reduction of cancer cells.
Placebo effect.
A placebo effect or placebo response is a therapeutic and healing effect of an inert medicine or ineffective therapy,[1] or more generally is the psychosocial aspect of every medical treatment.[2] Sometimes known as non-specific effects or subject-expectancy effects, a placebo effect (or its counterpart, the nocebo effect), occurs when a patient's symptoms are altered in some way (i.e., alleviated or exacerbated) by a treatment, due to the individual expecting or believing that it will work. The placebo effect occurs when a patient is treated in conjunction with the suggestion from an authority figure or from acquired information that the treatment will aid in healing and the patient’s condition improves. This effect has been known since the early 20th century.
06-01-2008, 09:48 AM
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Originally Posted by dTor
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Placebo_effect
Like I said, the mild ride comfort improvement was not a placebo effect.
Like I said, the mild ride comfort improvement was not a placebo effect.
06-01-2008, 10:19 AM
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Originally Posted by redlude97
Explain how the ride improved at the same tire pressure on the same tire then
A familiar example would be stainless steel - add more carbon, it becomes harder and more brittle. Take away nickel, and it becomes more corrosion resistant, but less durable.
As an average consumer, most of us don't know or care about the differences. All we see is a shiny metal that is good for exhausts and cutlery.
06-01-2008, 04:48 PM
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Originally Posted by dTor
Like I said, the mild ride comfort improvement was not a placebo effect.
I am asserting that this is exactly a placebo effect for that reason.
I'm not going to argue on semantics with you... If you truly believe it's working for you, then great!
06-01-2008, 07:06 PM
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A placebo effect is the feeling that whatever you are using works because you were told it was supposed to do something before you used it. Since I was not told beforehand that small, sharp bumps would feel less harsh after nitrogen, the fact that I immediately noticed this improvement (again, without knowing this was a benefit of N) afterward negates the possibility of me experiencing a placebo effect.
Basically, since you already know what the outcome is supposed to be, your mind tricks you into believing that you are experiencing that outcome. Again, I was not aware of what would happen, therefore I know it was not a placebo effect.
Basically, since you already know what the outcome is supposed to be, your mind tricks you into believing that you are experiencing that outcome. Again, I was not aware of what would happen, therefore I know it was not a placebo effect.
06-01-2008, 07:49 PM
#30
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I’ve “lost” the points in this debate, but will say I have better results with nitrogen fills. “By better results,” I mean I have more consistent tire pressure under a varying ambient temperatures and driving scenarios than what I experience with “straight air.”
I’m in a climate zone where temperatures can fluctuate from above freezing to -30 degrees F within a few hours. Nitrogen fills work well in these extremes.
With “straight air,” I experienced condensation and significant fluctuations in tire pressure. Nitrogen fills significantly mitigate the problem.
--Spike
I’m in a climate zone where temperatures can fluctuate from above freezing to -30 degrees F within a few hours. Nitrogen fills work well in these extremes.
With “straight air,” I experienced condensation and significant fluctuations in tire pressure. Nitrogen fills significantly mitigate the problem.
--Spike
06-01-2008, 11:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Spike100
I’ve “lost” the points in this debate, but will say I have better results with nitrogen fills. “By better results,” I mean I have more consistent tire pressure under a varying ambient temperatures and driving scenarios than what I experience with “straight air.”
I’m in a climate zone where temperatures can fluctuate from above freezing to -30 degrees F within a few hours. Nitrogen fills work well in these extremes.
With “straight air,” I experienced condensation and significant fluctuations in tire pressure. Nitrogen fills significantly mitigate the problem.
--Spike
I’m in a climate zone where temperatures can fluctuate from above freezing to -30 degrees F within a few hours. Nitrogen fills work well in these extremes.
With “straight air,” I experienced condensation and significant fluctuations in tire pressure. Nitrogen fills significantly mitigate the problem.
--Spike
06-01-2008, 11:18 PM
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Originally Posted by dTor
I have no idea. I'm not a physicist, but I imagine it's along the same lines as any two similar substances having different physical qualities and characteristics with only slight changes to their molecular makeup.
A familiar example would be stainless steel - add more carbon, it becomes harder and more brittle. Take away nickel, and it becomes more corrosion resistant, but less durable.
As an average consumer, most of us don't know or care about the differences. All we see is a shiny metal that is good for exhausts and cutlery.
A familiar example would be stainless steel - add more carbon, it becomes harder and more brittle. Take away nickel, and it becomes more corrosion resistant, but less durable.
As an average consumer, most of us don't know or care about the differences. All we see is a shiny metal that is good for exhausts and cutlery.
06-02-2008, 08:29 AM
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Originally Posted by redlude97
This is not the case with gasses though, particularly in regard to pressure, they all behave in the same way in these circumstances. I still don't see a control so whatever "improvement" you felt I chalk up to you paying more attention after getting the fillup. I'll bet you that if you filled one front tire with air and one with nitrogen, that you wouldn't be able to discern ANY difference between the two. Gasses on a molecular level are very unique in that they behave almost exactly the same due to the molecular spacing inherent to the gas phase. Its not even close to the same as a solid where direct constant interactions are occuring that can be attributed to the macroscopic properties
Also, I do understand that solids behave quite differently than gases. I was just using that example to relate to the general mindset of most "typical" consumers in regards to applying something they think they're familiar with to an application that is commonly thought of as not benefitting from any alterations.
Last edited by dTor; 06-02-2008 at 08:33 AM.
06-02-2008, 09:53 AM
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Originally Posted by dTor
If you re-read my original post, my control was the fact that I have always checked my gas mileage everytime I fill up since I have owned the car (June 2006). In this case, I checked it for over a year before switching to nitrogen (in September 2007). After the nitrogen fill, back in September, I have always checked it, and have always noticed the mpg improvements I listed in my OP. This is not something I just did two days ago. This is something that I've been tracking for nine months now. I wanted to post about this a lot sooner, but I wanted to make sure that I eliminated any possible variable that may have altered my results.
Also, I do understand that solids behave quite differently than gases. I was just using that example to relate to the general mindset of most "typical" consumers in regards to applying something they think they're familiar with to an application that is commonly thought of as not benefitting from any alterations.
Also, I do understand that solids behave quite differently than gases. I was just using that example to relate to the general mindset of most "typical" consumers in regards to applying something they think they're familiar with to an application that is commonly thought of as not benefitting from any alterations.
06-02-2008, 12:49 PM
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^^ Maybe I didn't explain properly - I check my mileage virtually each and every time I fill up, since the day I got my car. Of course there have been occassions where I didn't check, but I'd estimate that I've checked my mileage 85-90% of the time, using my calculator, and dividing the number of miles traveled to 1/10th of a mile, and the gallons filled up to 1/100th of a gallon. Also, to help ensure consistency, after the first "click" of the nozzle, I give it another squeeze until it clicks again. It generally adds about .1 gallons more. This way I know that my tank is actually full (and yes, I have already had the TSB work done regarding the fuel filler neck).
The mileage figures I've posted are the average of 85-90% my fillups over the past two years with respect to pre- and post-nitrogen tires. Of course, this is by no means a scientific study, and I never said it was. This is an end-user, real-world observation that I have taken the time and effort to keep track of. If you do not like the results, then you are certainly welcome to conduct your own study and post your results.
I am very aware of how a scientific study is conducted. My control (air-filled tires) is as good as it can get short of doing the work in a lab. My driving habits have not changed, nor have the conditions under which I drive.
Also, I don't understand where you think that my ride quality has changed several months after my tires were filled with nitrogen. I went into the tire shop with air-filled tires. Five minutes later, they were filled with nitrogen. As soon as I pulled out into the street and started to drive, I noticed the ride quality (again, only small, sharp bumps) improved. Since I was not aware of the potential ride quality improvement (i.e. I noticed it on my own), this is, by definition, not a placebo effect. This is something that I have remembered since I got the tires filled, and have thus posted my obersvation regarding this aspect as well. Is it quanitfied? No, of course not. I don't have a vibration meter in my tool box. It is a subjective observation that I made, and later was able to somewhat verify that it was due to the nitrogen and that it was not my imagination.
Of course, YMMV.
The mileage figures I've posted are the average of 85-90% my fillups over the past two years with respect to pre- and post-nitrogen tires. Of course, this is by no means a scientific study, and I never said it was. This is an end-user, real-world observation that I have taken the time and effort to keep track of. If you do not like the results, then you are certainly welcome to conduct your own study and post your results.
I am very aware of how a scientific study is conducted. My control (air-filled tires) is as good as it can get short of doing the work in a lab. My driving habits have not changed, nor have the conditions under which I drive.
Also, I don't understand where you think that my ride quality has changed several months after my tires were filled with nitrogen. I went into the tire shop with air-filled tires. Five minutes later, they were filled with nitrogen. As soon as I pulled out into the street and started to drive, I noticed the ride quality (again, only small, sharp bumps) improved. Since I was not aware of the potential ride quality improvement (i.e. I noticed it on my own), this is, by definition, not a placebo effect. This is something that I have remembered since I got the tires filled, and have thus posted my obersvation regarding this aspect as well. Is it quanitfied? No, of course not. I don't have a vibration meter in my tool box. It is a subjective observation that I made, and later was able to somewhat verify that it was due to the nitrogen and that it was not my imagination.
Of course, YMMV.
Last edited by dTor; 06-02-2008 at 12:55 PM.
06-02-2008, 12:53 PM
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Well, if nothing else you're extremely diligent. I definitely give you kudos for that. And I appreciate the real-world experience writeup. My only experience with nitrogen was in my wife's 3-series (a car I hated) and besides not having to air up the tires as often I honestly didn't pay any attention to the pros or cons of N. So for you to have some real data and long-term info is really cool. 
06-02-2008, 01:01 PM
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Thank you, I appreciate that. I knew I would catch some heat on this issue, but everybody will take it differently, and that's fine. The use of nitrogen in tires is still in it's product acceptance phase, but I'm sure after another year or two a lot more people will be using it.
I wasn't around when this occurred, but somebody was telling me about the time when Motordyne introduced the plenum spacers. Tony was getting torn up by people who thought they knew more than an aerospace engineer about, well, engineering, and how the spacers were BS and wouldn't work for this reason or that.
Nowadays, what is the first thing people recommend for the best bang-for-the-buck mod? That's right, a plenum spacer, and no other brand but MD will do.
I wasn't around when this occurred, but somebody was telling me about the time when Motordyne introduced the plenum spacers. Tony was getting torn up by people who thought they knew more than an aerospace engineer about, well, engineering, and how the spacers were BS and wouldn't work for this reason or that.
Nowadays, what is the first thing people recommend for the best bang-for-the-buck mod? That's right, a plenum spacer, and no other brand but MD will do.
06-02-2008, 04:34 PM
#38
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Originally Posted by redlude97
Explain how the ride improved at the same tire pressure on the same tire then
--Spike
06-02-2008, 04:39 PM
#39
Originally Posted by Spike100
I’ve “lost” the points in this debate, but will say I have better results with nitrogen fills. “By better results,” I mean I have more consistent tire pressure under a varying ambient temperatures and driving scenarios than what I experience with “straight air.”
I’m in a climate zone where temperatures can fluctuate from above freezing to -30 degrees F within a few hours. Nitrogen fills work well in these extremes.
With “straight air,” I experienced condensation and significant fluctuations in tire pressure. Nitrogen fills significantly mitigate the problem.
--Spike
I’m in a climate zone where temperatures can fluctuate from above freezing to -30 degrees F within a few hours. Nitrogen fills work well in these extremes.
With “straight air,” I experienced condensation and significant fluctuations in tire pressure. Nitrogen fills significantly mitigate the problem.
--Spike
06-02-2008, 04:41 PM
#40
Originally Posted by JETPILOT
I however do see a good use for nitrogen in race cars where you also want to keep optimum tire pressure which will not change when the tire heats up to operating temp from friction and brake heat. But for street cars I just don't see any advantage.
In order to get a good fill of nitrogen for your track tires pull the valve out of the stem and fill the tire with nitrogen after mounting. Let the nitrogen out of the tire. Do this twice. Reinstall the valve in the stem and fill the final time with nitrogen. This will purge the vast majority of air for a good fill of nitrogen.
In order to get a good fill of nitrogen for your track tires pull the valve out of the stem and fill the tire with nitrogen after mounting. Let the nitrogen out of the tire. Do this twice. Reinstall the valve in the stem and fill the final time with nitrogen. This will purge the vast majority of air for a good fill of nitrogen.