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picked up my nismo 3 months ago, im with you. i absolutely loathe the clutch. still cant drive it smooth to this day. i miss 1-2 shifts on the street often and it really makes me miss my DSG haha. ive beat the **** out of it several times already doing trackdays and in bone stock form its not too bad around the track. im going to keep it pretty simple modification wise and just combat the understeer first.
i find the nismo stuff is pretty gimmicky, especially the yamaha autech yada tuned useless body dampers. seam welded A pillars? meh. oh and the air box locking brace is pretty obnoxious. really wish it had a good diff in it mostly. i got a nismo because i just love the body and wheels mostly and im a sucker for any badged vehicle. yours looks good in black!
Nice review.
I actually like the aero, especially the rear bumper, alot!
One thing that I didn't know later models had was a cup holder in the doors! Holy crap that's amazing, I would have loved those instead of having to do some circus work to get to the ones at the back in the center console.
Going back to my original post (top of thread), I lamented a couple of things that bothered me about the "new" (to me) Nismo.
Sensation of insufficient power/torque in driving my usual test "lap".
Today, I did some research and while it wasn't entirely conclusive (on paper), my suspicions were confirmed:
- Final drive ratio between the '03 Enthusiast and '08 Nismo are the identical 3.54.
- Transmission ratios are identical 1st through 6th.
So what does this mean? Well, simply that I can eliminate either of these as the reason for the seeming lack of power in the range where I was running it.
Instead, it came down to what I originally thought and pontificated on in the original post. State of tune.
This next item isn't an unknown fact to anyone who has read the specs of the two engine combinations (DE v. HR)...
While I was unable to find/see any truly usable torque/HP charts that I could put side-by-side, it appears that the HR engine in the Nismo DOES have a slight bit less torque of about 6 ft-lbs, an amount probably not noticeable to any except those with the acutest of butt dynomometers.
For background, I reiterate public knowledge:
DE engine: 287hp@6200rpm, 274ft-lbs@4800rpm
HR engine: 306hp@6600rpm, 268ft-lbs@4800rpm
Problem is, most sources cite the peak torque values only and not dyno or road test figures that show "real world" figures in all of the gears, which are the values I wanted to have in order to extrapolate a real comparison on the DRIVEABILITY DIFFERENCES of the two cars (and engines). At least on paper. (Research of which, we summarily toss in the round file after getting in and going for a test drive. )
However inconclusive, I did find a couple of different torque charts that showed, in general - and again, not something people don't already know - that the HR engine does indeed have a higher torque curve than the DE. (That is, where it makes power-to-the-ground differences in a given gear.)
OK, so what's this mean?
Welllllll, simply that I was using my right foot TOO judiciously.
I took the car out this morning with the intentions of testing just that theory.
Usual stopping/photo-opp point, just below the "summit"/junction of 9/35.... same as every dang photo set I post!
On the freeway - entering - Instead of just "normal" acceleration through the gears, I kept 3rd coming off the entrance cloverleaf then nailed it and didn't shift until over 6,000rpm. The sensation summed up: "Uhhh, hey, where'd that power come from? Hmmmm, interesting...."
On the test "lap" up 9 - I approached the more familiar corner entrances in the gears I normally approach them in my '03. But this time, carried more entry speed, then left footed the brake pedal to settle the chassis while maintaining some throttle and finally, apex fed the loud pedal in gulps rather than sips to get and maintain higher revs on exit.
Whatdya know? It worked.
It was a little unnatural feeling but getting the engine up into the proper rev zone earlier made all the difference in "getting the power to work for me" (instead of leaving me scratching my head).
Now I have to tell you, it got a little hairy because some of the turns were ones that I'm used to entering at about 50mph (posted 30) but were now being pushed into at somewhere north of 60, making me a little nervous - but for the poise of the chassis and the effectiveness of the Brembos (over my now seemingly teeny tiny stock brakes on the '03) to give me the confidence to keep my foot in it.
EDIT: Forgot to mention that Timeltel was dead on regarding "holding the gear longer" because that's EXACTLY what worked on this car!! Thanks, T!
One of my favorite combinations.
In the end, yes, the Nismo does it all very well and I've figured out that it was driver timidness that didn't allow it to show me how well it could actually do out there in previous runs. All I did was alter the operator input and I can now NOT get all OCD about "why it's different". It just is. I just need to remember which car I'm driving. Hahaha.
As I always end such posts with a question, today it's this...
Is the HR engine better than the DE?
Yes and no. (In other words, "might be but it depends..." :)
Powerwise, I really don't think it's any better than my DE. Power delivery-wise (or "torquewise"?), ehhhh, I still like the lower end grunt of the DE in all gears on the street; BUT, driven closer to the edge, I give the HR a few more points when combined with the capable chassis set up and brakes of the Nismo to back up the road bravado. So in that regard, the Nismo outdoes the Enthusiast.
What's that really mean to the reader?
Well, honestly, not a lot - but it's an honest assessment of both engines, placed side-by-side (in my garage, hahaha) that may help to, well, not SETTLE (that will never happen...laff), but at least provide a "hands-on" and adequately objective datapoint to support or refute that age old question of "Which one should I buy, a DE or HR equipped Z?"
I shall now don Nomex gear to avoid the flame wars that will assuredly ensue.
Cheers,
Mic
Last edited by MicVelo; 03-21-2015 at 09:34 AM.
Reason: speling & gramur
Nice review.
I actually like the aero, especially the rear bumper, alot!
One thing that I didn't know later models had was a cup holder in the doors! Holy crap that's amazing, I would have loved those instead of having to do some circus work to get to the ones at the back in the center console.
It has cup holders in the doors???
Hmmm, I don't drink coffee in my Zs.... unless it's on a standard commute (and that means I'm usually driving my Volvo, heh heh). I love the dash cup holder in my '03 which the Niz doesn't have.... psh.
Naahhh, this car won't see the track just cuz I'm keeping it just for the novelty and one day, maybe an investment (or I'll give it to my kid on the condition she moves back to the Bay Area! Long story...)
The '03 *may* see some HPDE late this year. Been considering it but my schedule (another long story) is pretty full most weekends.
But if you've read my other posts about the Sunday runs and what not, you can be assured that the car is NOT a trailer queen nor destined to be. Took 'er out this morning and approached the entire run up the hill very differently and the results were good. Another report later on.
Mic
I can respect that! Nothing wrong with that at all. Either way enjoy the car, it looks great! After 5 long years with this car, I haven't regretted it since.
Having an '05 Grand Touring and now an '07 Nismo 350z, I found the Nismo to be immediately better in every aspect. (Handling, acceleration, interior, exterior.) And I didnt really pay any more $$ for it. Purchased both at $34K. Is it overpriced overall? Looking back maybe. But I wouldn't change it anyhow. I'm a lover of the Z!
Had the Niz baselined today at Z Car Garage. Nothing amiss, just changed out all the lubricating fluids (engine, trans, diff) and had Rob (Fuller, Owner of ZCG) go over the car.
My only complaint to have him really check out was the clutch situation mentioned previously in this thread. (My suspicion being the clutch adjustment and possibly a slave cylinder on its way out.)
The mighty CD009. Sure wish I had this box in my '03... in due time I guess.
But in addition to the lightness and high engagement point, wanted to have him drive it to confirm my feeling that it's suffering from a throwout bearing on the rocks. That is, that sound like there are rocks in the bearing at idle but quelled when pressure is applied to the pedal.
Diagnosis: "Incomplete" at this point. He is going to do a VIN check to see "which" slave cylinder and throwout bearing was used as he felt the same thing I have been feeling. That is, "The clutch functions OK - or as OK as the Nissan system can - but it feels 'weird', even weirder than the normal set up does". Not very reassuring, yes? Haha. But it's just one of the foibles that we learn to live with in our Z33s.
His suggestion was to, verbatim, "Mic, just rev it higher to get it moving then drive it until it really gets funky. Then we'll tear it apart, use the 'Z-Speed slave cylinder', a new Nissan T/O bearing and upgrade the clutch to a JWT street clutch.
Hmmmm, why does he always assume the "money is no object" thing with me??
He talked me out of looking at a Wilwood or Tilton (my preference between the two) master and slave cylinders saying "I hate Wilwood" and I love Tilton but for the street, you don't need any more than the stock master cylinder." (He told me some horror stories about the Wilwood components. Good enough for me.)
Everything else was good (but for a small weeping leak on the upper radiator hose - nothing a new clamp wouldn't fix... already done when I got home.)
We were going to skip the differential fluid but when he checked, he said, "Here, smell this, what do you think?" Took a sniff with my smell-impaired nose and said, "Go ahead, change it." Nothing particularly rancid about it, it just smelled, well, like it has 30k on it so off we went.
Note: That's Rob, on the right, getting his hands dirty.
All the fluids actually looked good coming out... clear oil, tranny fluid seemed fresh but as a PM item, I now know WHEN and WHAT was replaced in it. Hence, "baselined".
For the record, what went back in:
- Mobil One 0-40
- Redline MT-85 in the trans (only GL-4 spec fluid with sufficient friction modifiers to work well in the Z transmission, IMO)
- Nissan GL-5 spec 75w-85 in the rear end.
I had a chance to shoot some "undercarriage reference" pics for future use. (Don't ask him to enter the shop due to liability/insurance issues.)
Factory Nismo suspension. Pictured: Yamaha shocks, Nismo springs. Take special note of all of the cabling and hydraulic lines attached to the shock and arrive at your own conclusions.
Oh yeah..... it is what you think it is....
Anyhow, alls good with the Niz - for now - will probably order up the clutch set-up to have on hand should it all expire prematurely. (Or I decide to just go ahead and baseline that too.) Or just get the parts through the shop.
If you are interested in additional pics of the shop, I've posted them here, "Photo Tour: Z Car Garage, San Jose, CA" . Not as a shameless plug at all, I just get all excited when I go to the "candy store of my choice". When I find a shop I trust, I want them to have more biz so that they stay open FOR ME!! Laff....
Factory Nismo suspension. Pictured: Yamaha shocks, Nismo springs. Take special note of all of the cabling and hydraulic lines attached to the shock and arrive at your own conclusions.
Oh yeah..... it is what you think it is....
Mic
Hmm maybe I'm missing something.. What are my conclusions supposed to be.. lol
Sorry about that.... I realized after I posted that what I was referring to might not be too obvious. Doy.
Yamaha shock set-up uses external reservoirs, like sportbike shocks (well, they are from Yamaha, right? Heh heh) or the Ohlins suspension set-ups found on a number of Euro cars as options.
But what's weird is that I can find no sources on the web (particularly here or other Nissan enthusiast sites) that accurately detail these particular shocks. Maybe I'm wrong but I stared at them for a long time and tried to figure out what ELSE the hydraulic lines on the shock body could be.
Open to suggestions....
And no, after looking at the thing, I didn't look to verify this. I was going to go and try to find the reservoirs on the car but then promptly forgot about it while cooking dinner.... my OTHER weakness.
That hydraulic line is just the brake line, no biggie there.
Interesting thread. Maybe I missed it, what did you pay for the nismo?
Also, they really need to be revved to be enjoyed, once I tuned the car and was able to run it closer to 8K without the throttles closing, it feels much better. Really could take advantage of the 3.7 diff from the newer cars with the HR engines.
Last edited by Italianjoe1; 03-30-2015 at 05:22 PM.
That hydraulic line is just the brake line, no biggie there.
Interesting thread. Maybe I missed it, what did you pay for the nismo?
Also, they really need to be revved to be enjoyed, once I tuned the car and was able to run it closer to 8K without the throttles closing, it feels much better. Really could take advantage of the 3.7 diff from the newer cars with the HR engines.
Yeah...... sigh.... there I was struttin' mah bad self around thinkin' "Got me some super trick rac s**t on muh car! We bad, we bad!" until I crawled around and traced the lines to find out it's a "mere" brake line. Hmmmph.
Doy, then I remembered that my stock '03 struts had that on it too. Hahahahaha.
Hmmm, I don't drink coffee in my Zs.... unless it's on a standard commute (and that means I'm usually driving my Volvo, heh heh). I love the dash cup holder in my '03 which the Niz doesn't have.... psh.
lol i like keeping a bottle of water in the doors like in my previous cars.
also didnt know theres no dash holder for newer z. i would prefer the door holders to that one though lol
After driving the Nismo (almost exclusively and making my other cars feel neglected) for the last month, I've arrived at some further (maybe not quite final but close) conclusions.
1. I love my '03 Enthusiast as much - if not more than - the Nismo.
Again, not saying I don't like the Niz, it's just that my '03 is a bit more raw and feels a lot more like the Z's I grew up with (the original S30s with their manual everything). In saying that, I just mean that the '03 feels more like a "proper sports car" than the Niz.
Sounds strange, I know.
The Niz is softer all around. Yes, softer. Steering is lighter, brakes are touchier, even suspension is smoother and more compliant. (But very effective, for sure!)
I didn't expect any of that from the - as marketed - "best handling Z Nissan has ever made". And so it goes, it IS that to me, the best stock car I've ever owned in terms of handling.
2. The lack of lower speed grunt of the HR equipped Niz is - to me in my kind of driving - still something I don't particularly care for. Getting on the freeway and really nailing it IS rewarding but where I need the power (below 5500rpm) in the hills, it's still lacking. Again, I point out that this is only a matter of driver adaptation to the higher torque curve but this just makes me have to "think" a lot more when pushing it up the hills.
I know this is also counter-intuitive and many will say "Aww, hell, Mic, you just can't handle that much car!" Heh heh. Yeah, maybe so. But when I'm driving 8/10ths+ (while watching out for other cars, cyclists, and yes, animals running across the road, the last thing I want to be thinking about is "Oh crap, wrong gear....." especially when I'm already committed in the turn. (Please don't ask.... but yes, did that a few times..... sigh....)
Hmmmm.... No thanks to a mid-turn throttle lift. Deeeezaster!! "Right foot! Right foot! Gawddangit wake up!!!!" Laff.
Yeah yeah, thanks for pointing out how dirty it is.
Given this, however, my first and likely only modification to the Niz will be a change in gearing to 3.9 or 4.08 (and while I'm in there, will most likely upgrade the VLSD to a Quaife QDFxxL - the Quaife being the preferred choice to a full locker since the car is still driven on the street.
On that note, if anyone has any recs for a shop(s) that do good rear end work, I'm open to suggestions. (Already pre-disposed to Rear End Specialties in Santa Clara, CA but others sought just to do my due diligence.)
3. The clutch still bugs the he** out of me even though I've gotten used to the higher engagement and softer feel. After driving the '03 again for the first time in weeks, it became clear to me that I will be making eventual changes to the Niz' clutch set up.
Again, thanks to Timeltel for turning me on to this.
Will start with the RJM pedal and run that to see if that helps the pedal feel. Then, when the clutch actually/finally eats it, eventually will install an SMF (stock weight for street civility*), a good ol' JWT heavy duty single disc setup along with the Z Speed slave/release bearing and a new master.
* I'm merely thinking stock weight at this point, but this car, being exclusively for weekend runs might get a lightweight with little stop & go to contend with. We'll see when the time comes.
If that don't fix it, look for a "Nismo for Sale" in the classifieds. HAR!
In the end, I have no real complaints about the Niz other than the above. At least now I know what specifically needs to be done to it to "personalize it for my type of driving enjoyment."
So would I advise against the purchase of a Nismo (or any HR '07-8 car)?
Nope, it's a great car but if someone asks (and they always do) the ubiquitous question of whether they should wait for an HR model, I'd tell 'em what I've been saying all along:
"Don't "settle" on a car. Take your time and buy the one that fits your budget and has a verifiable service record with as low miles as possible. AND, if you are planning on any mods, buy an Enthusiast-level trim or above simply because the car already has defeatable-TCS (especially if you live in areas that get real seasons, like that cold white stuff from the sky where TCS is NECESSARY) and a VLSD. (Not the best but more than adequate for most - like 95% - people.... and better than an open diff so you won't NEED to upgrade it.)"
I bought the Niz simply for the uniqueness of the thing and given that I have so many other cars at my disposal, I can put some uncivilized stuff into it - like not-so-eco-green gears - to make it "right" for those mornings in the Santa Cruz mountains.
Like today.... it was raining earlier so the Z's got to sleep in! Hahahahahaha!
03-20-2015, 02:46 PM
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CD009. Sure wish I had this box in my '03... in due time I guess.
