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After returning from the St. Louis SCCA Majors races last weekend, I climbed into my '03 track model for some meetings today. Although it gets very little maintenance and no further performance upgrades, it's still a thrill, and very satisfying to know what a very good drive it remains. With all the talk on this board about how superior the 07-08 model Z33s are with the HR motor, it got me thinking: how true is that statement?
My T1/3 SCCA racecar uses a transplanted VQ35HR and it certainly has a small performance advantage. After all, it uses test pipes and a single outlet Magnaflow exhaust, together with an UpRev tune on 100 octane race fuel. It took Jared 42 pulls (and a visit from the police for the wailing exhaust notes produced) to get this tune right back in 2013. It's certainly been a strong and reliable powerplant in the tradition of the Z at the racetrack.
But like most racing today, mixed classes in a single race group is the rule. I found myself racing with GT2 machines like the Viper ACR, highly modded Vettes and even Tom Patton's legendary V8 Tiger- man, that car is quick! Accelerating off the banks at 120 MPH and having a pack of those cars blow by at 140 will rock your world! You not only had to drive the fast line around the 1.65-mile roval circuit, you'd better check your mirrors from time-to-time to figure out the best places to point those cars by as they lapped you.
My right foot wanted to summon more horsepower and torque from the HR when racing flat out like that! Getting back in my street Z and feeling the same VQ power on the street makes me think how much my 13-year old car eclipses just about any street machine on the road today. The point is, the VQ35DE in my street Z hasn't received nearly the attention the HR has, and certainly doesn't consume $10/gallon race fuel with a specialized tune. It gets acceptable gas mileage on premium unleaded fuel (except for highway mileage- then it gets exceptional mileage). No CSC problems either- it's proven to be a reliable powerplant with years of faithful service, just short of 100K.
For those looking at used 350Zs, my message is simply to look at the maintenance and care the car has received, not just whether it's got an HR. Take some time to size up the owner as well: does s/he know his/her stuff and can they explain how the car was modded and why? Look for an unmolested powerplant, with no signs of a hacked up main harness or other electrical problems. A Z with good VQ (of any iteration) is worth its weight in gold.
And herein lay the reason that after all five Zs I've owned in the last 4-5 years (well, not all Z33s so that's flawed but....), my go-to car remains my faithful '03. And besides suspension and rolling stock, it's bone stock and I love it.
My HR and VHR machines are/were undoubtedly superior in some respects but they dang well better be; what with wearing that "Nismo" logo out back. But at the end of the day, no, I don't miss 'em that much. If my '03 ended up somewhere other than my garage though.... I might cry a little.
Thanks, as always, David, for a great read, thoughtful insight, and a flameless new thread. Laff....
Thanks Mic- I wouldn't even mind the flames if it starts a little constructive conversation here. And you're right- the HR and VHR powered Zs are a bit quicker, but the emphasis should be on "bit", as the VQ35DE remains a great engine. As you say, the later NISMO models are "superior in some respects", but it still takes the right driver to extract that performance. Put a skilled driver in an '03 Z and a new driver in a pristine NISMO Z with the HR and I know who my money would be on! The point is, there's absolutely nothing wrong with the earlier Z33 models, as long as they were properly maintained.
Nice write up. To me, the new owner cares for 1 thing and 1 thing only, a fast sport car in straight line races.
Lets be honest, for straightline, the z is dated and isnt that great at all. Coming from a muscle scene. Even my turboed z leaves lots to be desire.
However, there is only a handful of cars from its era that can keep up with it in the twist. And 99% of todays owner, cant unleashe the Z's full potential in the back roads.
I feel the sport car era is ending, todays car gets heavier and heavier, more and more power, sometimes 2x the 350z output, yet lap times are similar of not near identical.
I feel we beed another s2000 where it can keep up in the straightline, but shines exceptionally well in the turns. Thats what a balance car is.
But then again, most buyers dont care about that, they want more power, all the luxuries, and a whole lots of potential that they wont ever unleash just to say "my car can do this and has this."
Nice write up. To me, the new owner cares for 1 thing and 1 thing only, a fast sport car in straight line races.
Lets be honest, for straightline, the z is dated and isnt that great at all. Coming from a muscle scene. Even my turboed z leaves lots to be desire.
However, there is only a handful of cars from its era that can keep up with it in the twist. And 99% of todays owner, cant unleashe the Z's full potential in the back roads.
I feel the sport car era is ending, todays car gets heavier and heavier, more and more power, sometimes 2x the 350z output, yet lap times are similar of not near identical.
I feel we beed another s2000 where it can keep up in the straightline, but shines exceptionally well in the turns. Thats what a balance car is.
But then again, most buyers dont care about that, they want more power, all the luxuries, and a whole lots of potential that they wont ever unleash just to say "my car can do this and has this."
Agreed. It's kind of sad that so many of the people coming up in the world these days don't give a sh*t about real driving experiences, what with people getting all hung up on Uber, and bike-to-work, and driverless cars. (I'm OK with all those things, BTW, just examples). And while I consult to one of the companies responsible for this "new era" of driver, I go to meetings and just get uptight about how cars are perceived.
I think we're going back to "cars as appliances." Fehhhhh.
Another sign of this is while I was hanging out a the Toyota dealership today waiting while my Highlander was being serviced, I strolled the lot of some 200 or more cars.
Amongst them a dozen or so Scion FR-S. Not ONE manual transmission anything on the lot. OK, Prius automatics are one thing but a pseudo sports car like the FR-S with ONLY slushboxes?? Uhhhh, will continue to buy older cars, thanks.
Ah well, just gotta roll with it I guess. Not gonna get all grampa like and bemoan, "Well, when I was your age...." Heh heh.
Agreed. It's kind of sad that so many of the people coming up in the world these days don't give a sh*t about real driving experiences, what with people getting all hung up on Uber, and bike-to-work, and driverless cars. (I'm OK with all those things, BTW, just examples). And while I consult to one of the companies responsible for this "new era" of driver, I go to meetings and just get uptight about how cars are perceived.
I think we're going back to "cars as appliances." Fehhhhh.
Another sign of this is while I was hanging out a the Toyota dealership today waiting while my Highlander was being serviced, I strolled the lot of some 200 or more cars.
Amongst them a dozen or so Scion FR-S. Not ONE manual transmission anything on the lot. OK, Prius automatics are one thing but a pseudo sports car like the FR-S with ONLY slushboxes?? Uhhhh, will continue to buy older cars, thanks.
Ah well, just gotta roll with it I guess. Not gonna get all grampa like and bemoan, "Well, when I was your age...." Heh heh.
Switching gears a bit, I think Mic is absolutely right. The new concept I hear in automotive journalism these days is "mobility" and the idea that cars are simply utilities to be used along with other forms of mass transit. Some car companies, like Ford, have openly embraced the idea and are racing to join the ranks with some sort of associated products.
Talk about a dystopian future! I can see it now: sweeping past and around clumps of autonomous vehicles with disconnected drivers reading notebooks or even smaller phones. Most new sportscars will have CVTs or autos (really, what's the difference?) and the latest technology to keep their drivers connected. Like Mic, I'm OK with most of this (can't hold back "progress" after all) and maybe it'll get the worst drivers off the streets!
But there's also changes at the racetrack that have me concerned for the future. Spec classes have always had their place in road racing, but are now expanding at an exponential rate. Yes, they can equalize certain aspects of competition, but at the cost of diversity and color. Think NASCAR on a smaller scale. But some of us would still rather see a Nissan racing a Mazda or a Ford or Chevy!
Getting back in my street Z and feeling the same VQ power on the street makes me think how much my 13-year old car eclipses just about any street machine on the road today.
I couldn't agree with you more on that. When I think about my Z and it being an over 10 year old car yet still has the power to keep up with these newer cars today just blows me away. For what the Z is, it's an incredible car.
A lot of people judge cars on how fast their 0-60 is or how much horsepower it has but I don't believe that really matters. If you think about what the car really is: a 10+ year old 3.5L V6, when you're put to the test against another car, it becomes clear that the Z is an underrated machine.
Nissan really knew what they were building when they built the Z. They could have put a lot more horsepower under the hood of these cars but they knew that wasn't necessary.
Nice write up DK. Ive always been a huge proponent of the DE. Other than tracking my 370 at Sebring, which yielded better results than my '05 350, I always felt my VQ35DE was just as fun, if not more than my 370VHR on a normal day on the street.
Another story from last weekend illustrates what makes the Z so unique. As mentioned, a lot of different classes racing together makes for some strange battles. In my case, a GT3 Miata provided the perfect contrast and foil to the Z. The GT classes mean most restrictions go out the door and high compression domed pistons, high lift cams, a built shortblack and more in a car highly modified for racing. The roval circuit at St. Louis really suits a small, lightweight race car like that.
From the start, his Hoosier race slicks came on quickly and I could see him in my mirrors, looking for a way by. By the time we hit the banked turns, he could pull out of my (considerable) draft and try pulling ahead down the straightaway to T1. Lap after lap, the HR would scream down that section as I upshifted to fifth. He nearly pulled alongside and would have had inside position for the pass, except for the last 100 yards or so. The first turn is almost reminiscent of the road course at Phoenix International: a light brake, heel/toe rev match to fourth gear and stand on the gas as you turn in!
Accelerate through the first third of the corner before using hard, threshold braking towards the outside of the corner, while a second shift to third gear gets you in position to take a late apex off the turn and a clean launch down the next chute. It's great fun, and really shows off both the power of the VQ and the stability of the FM chassis on that critical section. Joking with the Miata's pilot after the race, he said the pass was made up 'till we hit that last section, when the Z pulled ahead. His Miata weighs more than a thousand pounds less than my SCCA-mandated 3,450#, and illustrates why light sports cars will always have a place in the sportscar market segment (both low and high end). But weight aside...give me the Z every time!
I know a lot of people are pulling for a new S2000, but I just don't see it going into production. First and foremost, is the economic angle: Honda needs high volume, profitable models and mid-priced sportscars just don't cut it. They're being overtaken by Nissan in sales and need more crossovers and success from the Ridgeline to bring in some cash. Honda already has a halo product in the new NSX, so there's little reason to bring out a S2000?
I agree the market for sportscars is changing, not dead. But looking at sales for the new MX5 (which is a sweet roadster BTW), the market for lower cost sportscars is certainly on low burn at the moment.
And Zak, I'm glad you like your HR. But any Z is a special machine and we all treasure the ones we own!
I know a lot of people are pulling for a new S2000, but I just don't see it going into production. First and foremost, is the economic angle: Honda needs high volume, profitable models and mid-priced sportscars just don't cut it. They're being overtaken by Nissan in sales and need more crossovers and success from the Ridgeline to bring in some cash. Honda already has a halo product in the new NSX, so there's little reason to bring out a S2000?
I agree the market for sportscars is changing, not dead. But looking at sales for the new MX5 (which is a sweet roadster BTW), the market for lower cost sportscars is certainly on low burn at the moment.
And Zak, I'm glad you like your HR. But any Z is a special machine and we all treasure the ones we own!
Yeah but..... (there's always one in the crowd)....
All these new "sports cars" are automatics (or at least a HUGE percentage of them) - but according to all the pundits, they're better cuz they use nintendo shifters!
Psh. Stupidest thing ever put into cars driven by non-enthusiasts, IMO.
Sheesh, after I sold my Niz, was looking around in earnest at 370Zs or maybe G37S/IPL. Now I've quit looking. 9 of 10 around here are automatics and got bored.
Off to other ventures now.... not wasting my time with this stuff.
Buy the car you can afford AND still pay for a good set of RE-11s or some decent tires. 20 grand in turbos and 10k in suspension will not matter if you are buying used nankings for 15 bucks.
I love my 06. Had it for about 5 years and I've thought about trading it in for a newer vehicle, but I just couldn't... I've put a lot of time and effort building the car, and with the extra money that can all go into parts, lol.
Yeah but..... (there's always one in the crowd)....
All these new "sports cars" are automatics (or at least a HUGE percentage of them) - but according to all the pundits, they're better cuz they use nintendo shifters!
Psh. Stupidest thing ever put into cars driven by non-enthusiasts, IMO.
Sheesh, after I sold my Niz, was looking around in earnest at 370Zs or maybe G37S/IPL. Now I've quit looking. 9 of 10 around here are automatics and got bored.
Off to other ventures now.... not wasting my time with this stuff.
Hahaha its funny you say that, I made a Youtube comment cause someone was trashing some kid for buying a A/T 350 for his first car.. I just posted not everyone needs a race car for a DD, cut the kid some slack. Its what he could afford even if stick is more of a "drivers" car.
Then some kid got on my ***** about how A/T was better in every way and went on this huge post of "documented testing" and "thousands of time slips" that prove A/T will always be better and that's why F1 uses A/T's...
and on and on about random sh** about how the Z was designed off of Z's and F1 cars and Z's have a lot in common...
05-19-2016, 12:57 PM
Observations from HR racecar to DE street Z
