Track Review: The Chicago Crew Goes To Watkins Glen; Pics & Vids!
07-08-2005, 03:04 PM
#1
Track Review: The Chicago Crew Goes To Watkins Glen; Pics & Vids!
Howdy Tracksters! A bunch of us from the Chicago area went to the world famous Watkins Glen for a two day track event on July 4th & 5th.
The Crew
We had a total of 5 Z's in attendance. Three of us made the approximately 700+ mile trip out from Chicago. We were the affectionately titled "The Right Coast BCR Harness Bar/TrueChoice Tour!". So named because Bruce, Jack and Brian all recently bought the new Truechoice/Koni suspension and BCR was added, well, because Bruce made up the title. The other drivers came from Michigan and the D.C. areas. The members were Enthuz, Black Flag Jack, John, Redfoot, and Zillinois. John also brought Chris who drove a Miata and Jack brought, his friend and our crew chief, Mike.
The Track
We drove the long course which includes the infamous "boot". The corners are all banked between 6 and 10 degrees and the track is filled with large elevation changes, both of which are quite out of the norm for us "flatlanders".
Watkins Glen has a long history of hosting some of the best racing in the world and the track did not disappoint us in any way. I could try to describe it, but I think it will be better just to show you with the video and pictures. Here is a link if you would like to learn more about Watkins Glen. http://www.theglen.com/
The Event
The event was put on by the Carguys. To be brief, avoid the Carguys if you can help it. I don't like to be negative in a review about a track day, but there were significant safety and organizational issues which appear to be systemic. I'll post it after all of the pics and vids, so you can skip it if you want.
The saving grace of the event, for me, was my instructor. He turned out to be a successful club racer with the PCA and had been racing at Watkins Glen for the last 7 years. He also is one of the administrators that signs off on PCA club racers as well as an instructor for Audi. My experience with him was nothing short of having a personal driving coach. I have had probably 6 instructors at past HPDE's, as well as, multiple instructors at a recent 3 day Panoz racing school and I can say without a doubt that this guy taught me more about driving fast than the whole lot of them combined. Thank you John Sullivan!
The Track
The facilities at the track are world class. There is a mini city of streets all layed out in a grid and the garages are very large and open. Big grandstands line the track and there is, of course, the trademark blue armco running around a good portion of the perimeter. The track is very wide, but the retaining walls are only a few feet off the track in some places. The track is very fast. There are some corners that you enter at 100+ miles per hour!!
I've been slightly dissapointed at the bigger tracks on occasion because, while they have all of the above stuff, the track has often been neutered of all character. Road America springs to mind. However, Watkins Glen is not one of those tracks. The elevation changes and the slithering track layout make the track have so much character. Climbing up the hill out of turn 2 and into the esses at WOT is trip, as is flying down the backside through the bus stop and into the boot. Even crawling up the heel of the boot is fun too, though your car feels like its barely moving.
Impressions
Its hard to describe my track experience due to my instructor. I found the track incredibly easy to drive. There are very well defined concrete patches which help you line up for corners and many excellent reference points. The only turn I didn't push was the final turn. I never seemed to be able to get up to full speed through it. Although, the fact that the armco is only 3 feet off the track out point may have had something to do with that. ;-) I'll let the other guys post their comments on the track.
My wife went out for a lapping session with John, the Z owing instructor and described the track as a roller coaster. She had to sit down for a little bit and cool off afterward too. She said her stomache was a little woozy. Did I mention it was a fast track?? John is also a good driver who had been to the track before.
John was also good enough to take me out for a session too. We were running pretty good until he nearly toasted his motor with a misshift into 2nd on one of the fastest straights! It even made a bad smell!! We thought he may have hurt a valve, but it turned out to be just his A/C belt. The smell must have been the A/C belt frying. He did a great job of catching the misshift almost instantly so I doubt there was any real damage. I've got a quick video of John taking out a corvette earlier in the day too!! On a horsepower track to boot!
We had a little rain on the morning of the second day. I decided since I had such a great instructor that I would take advantage of it and try to improve my rain driving. And I was very glad I did. He taught me how to feel out the track for traction. It was the first time I'd ever experienced confidence in the rain. And at Watkins Glen no less!! I actually ran 3 seconds faster in the rain, than I had run the day before in the dry!! I ended up running a couple of laps at 2:20 flat in the final session but was mostly running about 2:21-2:23 with some traffic.
Fortunately, the rain stopped and dried up very quickly. The rest of the sessions the final day were completely dry. That really made the rest of the day spectacular. We had driven all that way and were worried about getting rained out.
Overall everyone had a great time and we all are looking forward to coming back again as soon as possible. Enough chatter on to the pics & vids.
The Crew
Our hotel
Chris, Bruce, Brian, John, Me
Us trying to coordinate communications
Track
John and Chris in the garage
The tech line
Brian in tech
Me in tech
sample of the elevation change!
Bruce (Enthuz)
Is that a BCR harness bar I see in that car??
Is that Mr. White group letting a Miata pass??
Brian (Redfoot)
Working the Bus Stop!
Climbing the hill!
John (John)
Corvette Killer video!
Me (Zillinois)
Working the bus stop
Me after losing 40 lbs!!
Did I mention the track is fast??
Here's a 2:21 pass with a passenger
Black Flag Jack
BFJ hustling out of the boot
The Crew
We had a total of 5 Z's in attendance. Three of us made the approximately 700+ mile trip out from Chicago. We were the affectionately titled "The Right Coast BCR Harness Bar/TrueChoice Tour!". So named because Bruce, Jack and Brian all recently bought the new Truechoice/Koni suspension and BCR was added, well, because Bruce made up the title. The other drivers came from Michigan and the D.C. areas. The members were Enthuz, Black Flag Jack, John, Redfoot, and Zillinois. John also brought Chris who drove a Miata and Jack brought, his friend and our crew chief, Mike.
The Track
We drove the long course which includes the infamous "boot". The corners are all banked between 6 and 10 degrees and the track is filled with large elevation changes, both of which are quite out of the norm for us "flatlanders".
Watkins Glen has a long history of hosting some of the best racing in the world and the track did not disappoint us in any way. I could try to describe it, but I think it will be better just to show you with the video and pictures. Here is a link if you would like to learn more about Watkins Glen. http://www.theglen.com/
The Event
The event was put on by the Carguys. To be brief, avoid the Carguys if you can help it. I don't like to be negative in a review about a track day, but there were significant safety and organizational issues which appear to be systemic. I'll post it after all of the pics and vids, so you can skip it if you want.
The saving grace of the event, for me, was my instructor. He turned out to be a successful club racer with the PCA and had been racing at Watkins Glen for the last 7 years. He also is one of the administrators that signs off on PCA club racers as well as an instructor for Audi. My experience with him was nothing short of having a personal driving coach. I have had probably 6 instructors at past HPDE's, as well as, multiple instructors at a recent 3 day Panoz racing school and I can say without a doubt that this guy taught me more about driving fast than the whole lot of them combined. Thank you John Sullivan!
The Track
The facilities at the track are world class. There is a mini city of streets all layed out in a grid and the garages are very large and open. Big grandstands line the track and there is, of course, the trademark blue armco running around a good portion of the perimeter. The track is very wide, but the retaining walls are only a few feet off the track in some places. The track is very fast. There are some corners that you enter at 100+ miles per hour!!
I've been slightly dissapointed at the bigger tracks on occasion because, while they have all of the above stuff, the track has often been neutered of all character. Road America springs to mind. However, Watkins Glen is not one of those tracks. The elevation changes and the slithering track layout make the track have so much character. Climbing up the hill out of turn 2 and into the esses at WOT is trip, as is flying down the backside through the bus stop and into the boot. Even crawling up the heel of the boot is fun too, though your car feels like its barely moving.
Impressions
Its hard to describe my track experience due to my instructor. I found the track incredibly easy to drive. There are very well defined concrete patches which help you line up for corners and many excellent reference points. The only turn I didn't push was the final turn. I never seemed to be able to get up to full speed through it. Although, the fact that the armco is only 3 feet off the track out point may have had something to do with that. ;-) I'll let the other guys post their comments on the track.
My wife went out for a lapping session with John, the Z owing instructor and described the track as a roller coaster. She had to sit down for a little bit and cool off afterward too. She said her stomache was a little woozy. Did I mention it was a fast track?? John is also a good driver who had been to the track before.
John was also good enough to take me out for a session too. We were running pretty good until he nearly toasted his motor with a misshift into 2nd on one of the fastest straights! It even made a bad smell!! We thought he may have hurt a valve, but it turned out to be just his A/C belt. The smell must have been the A/C belt frying. He did a great job of catching the misshift almost instantly so I doubt there was any real damage. I've got a quick video of John taking out a corvette earlier in the day too!! On a horsepower track to boot!
We had a little rain on the morning of the second day. I decided since I had such a great instructor that I would take advantage of it and try to improve my rain driving. And I was very glad I did. He taught me how to feel out the track for traction. It was the first time I'd ever experienced confidence in the rain. And at Watkins Glen no less!! I actually ran 3 seconds faster in the rain, than I had run the day before in the dry!! I ended up running a couple of laps at 2:20 flat in the final session but was mostly running about 2:21-2:23 with some traffic.
Fortunately, the rain stopped and dried up very quickly. The rest of the sessions the final day were completely dry. That really made the rest of the day spectacular. We had driven all that way and were worried about getting rained out.
Overall everyone had a great time and we all are looking forward to coming back again as soon as possible. Enough chatter on to the pics & vids.
The Crew
Our hotel
Chris, Bruce, Brian, John, Me
Us trying to coordinate communications
Track
John and Chris in the garage
The tech line
Brian in tech
Me in tech
sample of the elevation change!
Bruce (Enthuz)
Is that a BCR harness bar I see in that car??
Is that Mr. White group letting a Miata pass??
Brian (Redfoot)
Working the Bus Stop!
Climbing the hill!
John (John)
Corvette Killer video!
Me (Zillinois)
Working the bus stop
Me after losing 40 lbs!!
Did I mention the track is fast??
Here's a 2:21 pass with a passenger
Black Flag Jack
BFJ hustling out of the boot
Last edited by zillinois; 07-08-2005 at 03:19 PM.
07-08-2005, 03:09 PM
#2
Carguys review
You can totally avoid this part if like, but here is my review of Carguys and why I think you should stay away.
I'm sure that this will not be a view shared by all of those in attendance, but it certainly was shared by the Chicago crew. One of my main criterion in judging a club to run with is safety. I have left events before when I didn't feel the saftely levels were up to my standards. The Carguys did not live up to our expectations. Here is our list of complaints;
1. Tech inspection was a joke. (Wiggling my tires was the inspection)
2. They were inflexible on class assignments.
3. They ran their instructors into the ground until they were exhausted.
4. The classroom session offered no information about driving or the track.
5. They combined the begginers and intermediate for the final two sessions.
6. They then ran the combined group every half hour.
There were probably more problems with the event, but those are the ones that occur to me off the top of my head.
1. Tech inspection - I prefer a rigorous tech inspection to keep unsafe cars off the track. The last thing I want is some yahoo in an old Mustang spewing oil all over the track. The tech inspection did almost nothing to discrimate against cars which were older or in poor states of maintenance. I saw at least 3 cars which I would not have let on the track. Not Safe.
2. Inflexible Class assignments - We had 4 drivers at the event and only one was classed properly. Three of us are solidly intermediate and one is solidly advance having raced professionally. Two of us ended up in the beginner group, one in intermediate and one in advanced. The one who ended up in advanced asked if he could move down to intermediate because he had not been at the track in years and was sporting a new suspension, tires and differential. They would not let him move down. I was put in green and was refused a bump up as well. I have about twenty track days and a Panoz three day racing school under my belt. I was eventually moved up to yellow and solo'd, but only after I had to spend 4 session passing green drivers who were running 10 seconds a lap slower.The ex-pro racer was put in beginner and they would not move him up. To add insult to injury, the he got assigned an instructor who had never been to the track! After somed prompting of the instructor, Jack was finally bumped up to the advanced group, but only after they went out and tried to follow him around the track. Once he passed his instructor they gave him the bump up to advanced. But not before they wasted his first 3 sessions. Classing people properly is a skill not to be practiced arbitrarily. It is unsafe to run people in the wrong class.
3. Exhausted instructors - The instructors were basically on track almost every session the first day. They had a system of awarding solo status to each driver and it required that the instructor be in the car with their student in every session until they were solo'd. There is almost no way that the instructors could focus or stay fresh as they had to be with a student or driving almost every minute of the time. There was even a crash by an instructor. My bet is that it was partially caused by the schedule they were required to keep. Even one our Z crew instructors, John, had a nearly motor damaging misshift near the end of the day. That seemed to be very out of charater for his driving level. Again exhausted drivers are not safe.
4. Classroom sessions a Joke - I won't comment on this too much, but it was obvious that these sessions where impromptu and offered no real help to the novice on an incredibly difficult and dangerous track. Once again an opportunity to make your event safer was missed.
5. Combining class - After finally gaining some mastery of the course the second day, I was really looking forward to the later sessions to open it up. Unfortunately, we were combined with beginners for the final sessions so I never got a good open track. I understand that sometimes combing classes is convenient, but I would not do it on a highly demanding technical track. The fewer cars out on the track the safer. Especially at the end of the day.
6. Running sessions back to back - Once the intermediate and beginner sessions were combined there were only two run groups. So our cars only got a 1/2 hour to rest between session. Not good for the equipment or safety. I had an issue with too high of tire pressure in the final session and I went into a big 4 wheel drift into one of the turns. Yes I forgot to remember that my tire pressure would stay elevated with only a half an hour rest. But, how many beginners were warned that that would happen??
I'm sure that this will not be a view shared by all of those in attendance, but it certainly was shared by the Chicago crew. One of my main criterion in judging a club to run with is safety. I have left events before when I didn't feel the saftely levels were up to my standards. The Carguys did not live up to our expectations. Here is our list of complaints;
1. Tech inspection was a joke. (Wiggling my tires was the inspection)
2. They were inflexible on class assignments.
3. They ran their instructors into the ground until they were exhausted.
4. The classroom session offered no information about driving or the track.
5. They combined the begginers and intermediate for the final two sessions.
6. They then ran the combined group every half hour.
There were probably more problems with the event, but those are the ones that occur to me off the top of my head.
1. Tech inspection - I prefer a rigorous tech inspection to keep unsafe cars off the track. The last thing I want is some yahoo in an old Mustang spewing oil all over the track. The tech inspection did almost nothing to discrimate against cars which were older or in poor states of maintenance. I saw at least 3 cars which I would not have let on the track. Not Safe.
2. Inflexible Class assignments - We had 4 drivers at the event and only one was classed properly. Three of us are solidly intermediate and one is solidly advance having raced professionally. Two of us ended up in the beginner group, one in intermediate and one in advanced. The one who ended up in advanced asked if he could move down to intermediate because he had not been at the track in years and was sporting a new suspension, tires and differential. They would not let him move down. I was put in green and was refused a bump up as well. I have about twenty track days and a Panoz three day racing school under my belt. I was eventually moved up to yellow and solo'd, but only after I had to spend 4 session passing green drivers who were running 10 seconds a lap slower.The ex-pro racer was put in beginner and they would not move him up. To add insult to injury, the he got assigned an instructor who had never been to the track! After somed prompting of the instructor, Jack was finally bumped up to the advanced group, but only after they went out and tried to follow him around the track. Once he passed his instructor they gave him the bump up to advanced. But not before they wasted his first 3 sessions. Classing people properly is a skill not to be practiced arbitrarily. It is unsafe to run people in the wrong class.
3. Exhausted instructors - The instructors were basically on track almost every session the first day. They had a system of awarding solo status to each driver and it required that the instructor be in the car with their student in every session until they were solo'd. There is almost no way that the instructors could focus or stay fresh as they had to be with a student or driving almost every minute of the time. There was even a crash by an instructor. My bet is that it was partially caused by the schedule they were required to keep. Even one our Z crew instructors, John, had a nearly motor damaging misshift near the end of the day. That seemed to be very out of charater for his driving level. Again exhausted drivers are not safe.
4. Classroom sessions a Joke - I won't comment on this too much, but it was obvious that these sessions where impromptu and offered no real help to the novice on an incredibly difficult and dangerous track. Once again an opportunity to make your event safer was missed.
5. Combining class - After finally gaining some mastery of the course the second day, I was really looking forward to the later sessions to open it up. Unfortunately, we were combined with beginners for the final sessions so I never got a good open track. I understand that sometimes combing classes is convenient, but I would not do it on a highly demanding technical track. The fewer cars out on the track the safer. Especially at the end of the day.
6. Running sessions back to back - Once the intermediate and beginner sessions were combined there were only two run groups. So our cars only got a 1/2 hour to rest between session. Not good for the equipment or safety. I had an issue with too high of tire pressure in the final session and I went into a big 4 wheel drift into one of the turns. Yes I forgot to remember that my tire pressure would stay elevated with only a half an hour rest. But, how many beginners were warned that that would happen??
Last edited by zillinois; 07-08-2005 at 03:13 PM.
07-08-2005, 06:55 PM
#4
Thanks Kolia.
I corrected the links. And reading it over I see I made a bunch of spelling errors. Do premier members get to go back and edit their posts??
I put the Carguys review separately, because I didn't want to give the wrong impression about our experience at the Glen. We all loved it and are ready to go back as soon as possible.
Here's a few more pics of the crew;
The Crazy Pirate Crew Chief Mike
Waiting for the rain to stop
My little rig courtesy of a national rental car company!!
Brian's awesome trailer
Chris's flyin' Miata
Hustling through the bus stop
I corrected the links. And reading it over I see I made a bunch of spelling errors. Do premier members get to go back and edit their posts??
I put the Carguys review separately, because I didn't want to give the wrong impression about our experience at the Glen. We all loved it and are ready to go back as soon as possible.
Here's a few more pics of the crew;
The Crazy Pirate Crew Chief Mike
Waiting for the rain to stop
My little rig courtesy of a national rental car company!!
Brian's awesome trailer
Chris's flyin' Miata
Hustling through the bus stop
Last edited by zillinois; 07-08-2005 at 07:17 PM.
07-08-2005, 07:25 PM
#5
WOW! 
What a great write up of an event I will never forget! A great time was had by all, in spite of CarGuys incompetence. Great pix, I will guess were taken by Geoff's bride. I won't add to Geoff's comments on CG, but I will say he is being overly kind in his criticism. And, yes, Mr. White Group Guy did let the Mazda pass.....he took T17 much faster than I did, so I try to NEVER hold up a faster driver. I think I was the only 350Z black flagged........along with ALL the white group after the BMW driven by an instructor had the event's only wreck.
I know all the BCR harness bar users appreciated it's ability to correctly mount 6 point harnesses to hold our as$es in our seats in the many high G load turns.
I'm looking forward to returning to this awesome track soon......just not with CarGuys.
What a great write up of an event I will never forget! A great time was had by all, in spite of CarGuys incompetence. Great pix, I will guess were taken by Geoff's bride. I won't add to Geoff's comments on CG, but I will say he is being overly kind in his criticism. And, yes, Mr. White Group Guy did let the Mazda pass.....he took T17 much faster than I did, so I try to NEVER hold up a faster driver. I think I was the only 350Z black flagged........along with ALL the white group after the BMW driven by an instructor had the event's only wreck.
I know all the BCR harness bar users appreciated it's ability to correctly mount 6 point harnesses to hold our as$es in our seats in the many high G load turns.
I'm looking forward to returning to this awesome track soon......just not with CarGuys.
07-09-2005, 07:50 AM
#6
Originally Posted by EnthuZ
WOW!
What a great write up of an event I will never forget! A great time was had by all, in spite of CarGuys incompetence. Great pix, I will guess were taken by Geoff's bride. I won't add to Geoff's comments on CG, but I will say he is being overly kind in his criticism. And, yes, Mr. White Group Guy did let the Mazda pass.....he took T17 much faster than I did, so I try to NEVER hold up a faster driver. I think I was the only 350Z black flagged........along with ALL the white group after the BMW driven by an instructor had the event's only wreck.
I know all the BCR harness bar users appreciated it's ability to correctly mount 6 point harnesses to hold our as$es in our seats in the many high G load turns.
I'm looking forward to returning to this awesome track soon......just not with CarGuys.
What a great write up of an event I will never forget! A great time was had by all, in spite of CarGuys incompetence. Great pix, I will guess were taken by Geoff's bride. I won't add to Geoff's comments on CG, but I will say he is being overly kind in his criticism. And, yes, Mr. White Group Guy did let the Mazda pass.....he took T17 much faster than I did, so I try to NEVER hold up a faster driver. I think I was the only 350Z black flagged........along with ALL the white group after the BMW driven by an instructor had the event's only wreck.
I know all the BCR harness bar users appreciated it's ability to correctly mount 6 point harnesses to hold our as$es in our seats in the many high G load turns.
I'm looking forward to returning to this awesome track soon......just not with CarGuys.
Alright crew, I'm burning the pics and vids right now. Should be out by Monday.
Last edited by zillinois; 07-09-2005 at 07:58 AM.
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07-09-2005, 02:20 PM
#10
Originally Posted by doodeitstom
Damn, that looks fun. What brand rims do you run zillinois?
I run Complete Custom Wheels. The classic street model. www.ccwheel.com
07-10-2005, 02:48 PM
#13
Originally Posted by EnthuZ
I've decided to add a few more pix to Geoff's thread. 1st is my/our arrival at the track. 2nd is of my hotel room overlooking Lake Seneca. 3rd shot is of 4 of the 5 Z's at the event from the garage.
07-10-2005, 06:36 PM
#14
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Sorry that I missed out on this one. Maybe if this becomes a yearly thing I will come out next year. I definitely need a trailer though.
Did Jack really pass his instructor on the track?
Did Jack really pass his instructor on the track?
07-11-2005, 10:33 AM
#15
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Hey guys... I'll third or fourth the great write-up accolades
1st of all... don't forget about the Z Convention this year... they will be at the Glen if you're planning on going - although unless you're going for the whole week, I realize the long haul would not be worth one day's worth of driving.
Also... I'd love to hear John's opinions and comparisons between Watkins Glen and Virginia International. Sounds to me like they would be very similar in feel, only with MUCH more run-off areas around VIR lol.
Lastly... Any interest in making a trek down to North Carolina? We'll be at the North Carolina Motor Speedway (The Rock) November 5-6 and frankly would love to have our organization scrutinized as you have Carguys. We run VIR Full course in February, but I understand that getting out of Chicago in Feb might be a little iffy to say the least.
My understanding is that CarGuys used to be the standard. Before they went commercial, they were focused on attendee fun, safety, and learning. We have modeled our program on that original premise and have developed what we feel is the best compromise between on-track time, education, fun, and above all, safety.
Everyone of your critiques of CG is dead on and should be made public. From an orginaizer standpoint, I could see instances where it may be difficult to move a student from one group to another - but it sounds like they made no effort to until it was painfully obvious that it needed to be done, and that's unfortunate.
On a side note - someone on our local forum gave general praise to the event up there. which I guess just goes to show... to each his own right? I'm dissapointed to hear that the tech aspect and safety precautions were lax. With all the problems the guys out west seem to be having, its imperative that we as organizers do everything we can to ensure a safe event.
Stacy King
HPDE Coordinator
Triangle Z Club / Tarheel Sports Car Club
www.timetrials.net
1st of all... don't forget about the Z Convention this year... they will be at the Glen if you're planning on going - although unless you're going for the whole week, I realize the long haul would not be worth one day's worth of driving.
Also... I'd love to hear John's opinions and comparisons between Watkins Glen and Virginia International. Sounds to me like they would be very similar in feel, only with MUCH more run-off areas around VIR lol.
Lastly... Any interest in making a trek down to North Carolina? We'll be at the North Carolina Motor Speedway (The Rock) November 5-6 and frankly would love to have our organization scrutinized as you have Carguys. We run VIR Full course in February, but I understand that getting out of Chicago in Feb might be a little iffy to say the least.
My understanding is that CarGuys used to be the standard. Before they went commercial, they were focused on attendee fun, safety, and learning. We have modeled our program on that original premise and have developed what we feel is the best compromise between on-track time, education, fun, and above all, safety.
Everyone of your critiques of CG is dead on and should be made public. From an orginaizer standpoint, I could see instances where it may be difficult to move a student from one group to another - but it sounds like they made no effort to until it was painfully obvious that it needed to be done, and that's unfortunate.
On a side note - someone on our local forum gave general praise to the event up there. which I guess just goes to show... to each his own right? I'm dissapointed to hear that the tech aspect and safety precautions were lax. With all the problems the guys out west seem to be having, its imperative that we as organizers do everything we can to ensure a safe event.
Stacy King
HPDE Coordinator
Triangle Z Club / Tarheel Sports Car Club
www.timetrials.net
07-11-2005, 11:59 AM
#16
Originally Posted by Stack
Hey guys... I'll third or fourth the great write-up accolades
1st of all... don't forget about the Z Convention this year... they will be at the Glen if you're planning on going - although unless you're going for the whole week, I realize the long haul would not be worth one day's worth of driving.
Also... I'd love to hear John's opinions and comparisons between Watkins Glen and Virginia International. Sounds to me like they would be very similar in feel, only with MUCH more run-off areas around VIR lol.
Lastly... Any interest in making a trek down to North Carolina? We'll be at the North Carolina Motor Speedway (The Rock) November 5-6 and frankly would love to have our organization scrutinized as you have Carguys. We run VIR Full course in February, but I understand that getting out of Chicago in Feb might be a little iffy to say the least.
My understanding is that CarGuys used to be the standard. Before they went commercial, they were focused on attendee fun, safety, and learning. We have modeled our program on that original premise and have developed what we feel is the best compromise between on-track time, education, fun, and above all, safety.
Everyone of your critiques of CG is dead on and should be made public. From an orginaizer standpoint, I could see instances where it may be difficult to move a student from one group to another - but it sounds like they made no effort to until it was painfully obvious that it needed to be done, and that's unfortunate.
On a side note - someone on our local forum gave general praise to the event up there. which I guess just goes to show... to each his own right? I'm dissapointed to hear that the tech aspect and safety precautions were lax. With all the problems the guys out west seem to be having, its imperative that we as organizers do everything we can to ensure a safe event.
Stacy King
HPDE Coordinator
Triangle Z Club / Tarheel Sports Car Club
www.timetrials.net
1st of all... don't forget about the Z Convention this year... they will be at the Glen if you're planning on going - although unless you're going for the whole week, I realize the long haul would not be worth one day's worth of driving.
Also... I'd love to hear John's opinions and comparisons between Watkins Glen and Virginia International. Sounds to me like they would be very similar in feel, only with MUCH more run-off areas around VIR lol.
Lastly... Any interest in making a trek down to North Carolina? We'll be at the North Carolina Motor Speedway (The Rock) November 5-6 and frankly would love to have our organization scrutinized as you have Carguys. We run VIR Full course in February, but I understand that getting out of Chicago in Feb might be a little iffy to say the least.
My understanding is that CarGuys used to be the standard. Before they went commercial, they were focused on attendee fun, safety, and learning. We have modeled our program on that original premise and have developed what we feel is the best compromise between on-track time, education, fun, and above all, safety.
Everyone of your critiques of CG is dead on and should be made public. From an orginaizer standpoint, I could see instances where it may be difficult to move a student from one group to another - but it sounds like they made no effort to until it was painfully obvious that it needed to be done, and that's unfortunate.
On a side note - someone on our local forum gave general praise to the event up there. which I guess just goes to show... to each his own right? I'm dissapointed to hear that the tech aspect and safety precautions were lax. With all the problems the guys out west seem to be having, its imperative that we as organizers do everything we can to ensure a safe event.
Stacy King
HPDE Coordinator
Triangle Z Club / Tarheel Sports Car Club
www.timetrials.net
As for CG, to be fair, there were some attendees that fit right into the CG's system without trouble and I personally did like their system of instructors awarding drivers solo stickers. That is a nice safety feature. Unfortunately, the rest of the CG's practices did not reinforce it. Mistakes and miscommunications are a part of life. But acting quickly to correct them instead of being resistant to them will get you judged favorably. Thats all it would have taken. Being stubborn rarely equates to safety. Just look at F1 at Indy.
07-11-2005, 01:02 PM
#17
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Originally Posted by zillinois
Thanks for the kind words. I personally would love to come down and drive "The Rock". I'm not sure how feasible that is in November let alone February though?! I'll see what the Chicago crew thinks of the idea.
Originally Posted by zillinois
As for CG, to be fair, there were some attendees that fit right into the CG's system without trouble and I personally did like their system of instructors awarding drivers solo stickers. That is a nice safety feature. Unfortunately, the rest of the CG's practices did not reinforce it. Mistakes and miscommunications are a part of life. But acting quickly to correct them instead of being resistant to them will get you judged favorably. Thats all it would have taken. Being stubborn rarely equates to safety. Just look at F1 at Indy.
Anyway - be on the lookout for a post from me with regard to that event. If I can answer any more questions for you, email or PM me - we'd love to have you come join us.
Stacy King
Triangle Z Club
07-11-2005, 03:13 PM
#18
Great writeup Geoff, and as I stated in the other thread, it was nice to meet another enthusiast Z crowd; I thoroughly enjoyed meeting everyone, even Bruce who I met about a year and a half ago. 
Sorry it took me so long to respond, but I was out of town all weekend and my attention was "elsewhere." *wink wink*
I'd like to provide some of my comments on CG, mainly because I've run with them in the past and I started working (flagging initially) with them three years ago. As Stacy mentioned, CG was the standard, and about six years ago, it took on new ownership. The event organizer is well, not organized, and the event steward is quite hard-nosed and arrogant. Both are difficult personalities to deal with, and you have to walk a fine diplomatic line. From the perspective of what happened with the misclassing of students, I understand your frustration. On the flip side, I "heard" that some of the registration forms lacked full indication of track experience. I do believe that more transparent communication between CG and the students needs to happen well before the track event. (Chris has taken note of it and may approach CG about these issues)
Now, my real opinion on CG is that it isn't the best beginner DE event, rather it is a place where you can get more experience and/or seat time.
In my opinion, 99% of "at-track" tech inspections are a joke since you have a long line of cars that shows up to be teched in a short period of time (since everybody procrastinates). Since we have newer cars, a lot of things are glossed over. What you really need to watch out for are the older / heavily modified cars for things like no tail lights, as you exemplified with your Mustang analogy. Having teched with CG in the past, I remember checking tires, brake fluid, and tail lights the most.
This was my biggest issue of the weekend, but mainly because I was in the car for six hours straight on Monday. Doing this gives the instructors a false incentive to sign off their student (many times prematurely) so they can get some rest and/or track time. Not the way to run things.
Very good point... I kind of wish you all had made this more of a point to me and I would have gone and spoken to administration about it. Did any students make it a point to ask any questions about the track?
In the past this hasn't been a problem, but if it was too crowded, then it should have been made known. I too would be extremely frustrated.
While there were frustrating parts of the weekend, I do enjoy certain aspects, mainly the gobs of available track time and the fact that the majority of the people CG attracts are good to run with. For me, the personality issues of CG's administration are dually noted, and it has been one of my biggest issues for awhile now.
Sorry it took me so long to respond, but I was out of town all weekend and my attention was "elsewhere." *wink wink*I'd like to provide some of my comments on CG, mainly because I've run with them in the past and I started working (flagging initially) with them three years ago. As Stacy mentioned, CG was the standard, and about six years ago, it took on new ownership. The event organizer is well, not organized, and the event steward is quite hard-nosed and arrogant. Both are difficult personalities to deal with, and you have to walk a fine diplomatic line. From the perspective of what happened with the misclassing of students, I understand your frustration. On the flip side, I "heard" that some of the registration forms lacked full indication of track experience. I do believe that more transparent communication between CG and the students needs to happen well before the track event. (Chris has taken note of it and may approach CG about these issues)
Now, my real opinion on CG is that it isn't the best beginner DE event, rather it is a place where you can get more experience and/or seat time.
Originally Posted by zillinois
1. Tech inspection was a joke. (Wiggling my tires was the inspection)
Originally Posted by zillinois
3. They ran their instructors into the ground until they were exhausted.
Originally Posted by zillinois
4. The classroom session offered no information about driving or the track.
Originally Posted by zillinois
5. They combined the begginers and intermediate for the final two sessions.
While there were frustrating parts of the weekend, I do enjoy certain aspects, mainly the gobs of available track time and the fact that the majority of the people CG attracts are good to run with. For me, the personality issues of CG's administration are dually noted, and it has been one of my biggest issues for awhile now.
07-11-2005, 03:33 PM
#19
Originally Posted by EnthuZ
And, yes, Mr. White Group Guy did let the Mazda pass.....he took T17 much faster than I did, so I try to NEVER hold up a faster driver. I think I was the only 350Z black flagged........along with ALL the white group after the BMW driven by an instructor had the event's only wreck.
I have to give credit to the E36 M3 driver as he has never had an incident on-track, and for the three years I've known him, he's pushed the absolute limits of street tires without ever having an incident. It eventually happens to all of us. Needless to say, he acknowledged his error afterwards in a very mature matter, which rarely happens nowadays since it's always "I hit some oil" or "the tires gave out" or something else of the like.
Originally Posted by Stack
Also... I'd love to hear John's opinions and comparisons between Watkins Glen and Virginia International. Sounds to me like they would be very similar in feel, only with MUCH more run-off areas around VIR lol.
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