Carbon Talk : Interested in learning more about Automotive CF parts?
10-08-2006, 09:14 PM
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Carbon Talk : Interested in learning more about Automotive CF parts?
Alright guys. Everyone loves Carbon Fiber car parts so I decided to do a little write up that will hopefully educate the consumer about what they are buying or looking to buy. We get all kinds of questions regarding carbon and hopefully this thread will answer most of those questions. I will try my best to explain what I know from my experience in the composites industry. I would like this to be an open discussion. If I am wrong, then please correct me. If you have something to share or would like to showcase an awesome carbon fiber part, please do so. The more examples shown, the more informed everyone will be. I still get intrigued when i see a nice carbon fiber piece. The really good parts are really works of art.
Let's start with the basics:
Most CF parts in the automotive industry come in 2 types of weaves. 2x2 3K Twill weave and plain weave. Alot of people refer to plain weave as 1x1, but I think that is a misnomer. I could be wrong, but I never see "1x1" on the description on the box when we order carbon. People also refer to it as the "Spoon Weave," simply because that's what Spoon Japan uses for most of their CF parts.
Here's a good picture for comparison:
Plain weave on the left. Twill weave on the right. Plain weave looks like a bunch of small squares. Twill weave is more dramatic and zigzagged.
There are other weaves in Japan, but are very rare. I will show samples of those later.
Now let's talk about "DRY CARBON." Oooooo what's that?????
This is a tough one to explain because the term has been marketed in a number of different ways. Sometimes it gets confusing and I will tell you guys why.
First of all, the term "DRY CARBON" is a misnomer. No part is made out of just the carbon fiber fabric by itself. It always has to be a fiber and resin matrix. So if all carbon fiber parts have resin, how can it be dry???? Carbon fiber fabric by itself is dry, but like I said.... all parts are a fiber and resin matrix. The carbon fiber fabric by itself is very weak. The resin by itself is also weak. However, when you combine both together, it can create a very strong material, which is why it is used in the aerospace industry and such.
So what do companies mean when they are selling a "DRY CARBON" part? This is a bit tricky because it is a marketing term. Usually when a company is selling a dry carbon part, they are using "pre-preg" carbon.
What is "pre-preg" carbon?
Pre-preg carbon is carbon fiber fabric that already has resin in it. It is pre pregnated with resin. This stuff is very expensive and has to be kept in refrigeration. It becomes solid and cures with room temperature. The refrigeration keeps it from reaching curing point, hence useable to form shapes, however, pre-preg carbon does have a shelf life and it HAS to be used or it will go to waste. Usually pre-preg parts are used in conjunction with a vacuum bagging process, which helps the carbon fiber conform to the shape of the mold.
What are the benefits of pre-preg?
Pre-preg was designed to create strong parts. Pre-preg has just enough resin to saturate the carbon fiber fabric creating a strong and light part. In the world of composites, its all about fabric to resin ratio. The more resin a part has, the heavier and more brittle it will be. It is very difficult and I would even say impossible for handlaid carbon fiber parts, where the fabric is laid down and the resin is poured over the fabric, to have the same fabric to resin ratio as a pre-preg part. Hence, handlaid parts will be heavier and more brittle. But it looks damn good right??? The more resin in your CF part, the shinier it will be
. That's why pre-preg parts are often DULL-LOOKING, hence the marketing term........"DRY CARBON." The resin content is very low. However, dry carbon parts can be made shiny with the use of a clear gel coat or some type of automotive clear. This will also help protect your dry carbon parts, since it has no weather protection at all. Or you can keep washing it and hopefully it wont look as bad 
.
Here's an example of a "dry carbon" part without any type of clear coating.
Here's a beautiful picture of an Amuse "dry-carbon" hardtop for an S2000 with some type of clear coating. (2x2 twill weave)
Most of the best CF stuff ever seen are made for the s2000. The s2000 guys love it. Amuse and ASM are companies that come to mind when people speak of "dry-carbon" parts.
Here's a picture of an ASM dry carbon front end.......with some clear coating? (2x2 twill weave)
Here's C-west's Plain weave dry carbon s2000.
Plain Weave CF manufacturers:
1. C west (this company is tricky because they often use both plain and twill....for example.........350z front lip is twill. Subaru WRX hood is Twill. S2000 hood is plain weave........go figure)
2. Spoon and Mugen (this probably only concerns the Honda Guys)
3. Fujita Engineering and RE-Amemiya ( this probably only concerns the RX7 guys)
4. Top Secret
5. Nismo
And many more.......
Twill Weave CF manufacturers:
1. Amuse
2. Varis (ex. 350z air duct and trunk)
3. C-west
4. ASM (does both twill and plain)
5. Evo-R (I'm sure they can do both, but the interior trim pieces i've seen are twill)
6. Seibon (but I'm starting to see some of the new stuff in plain weave. I heard it was because of shortage of twill weave in the market)
7. VIS
8. GTP/Importfan/C-wings
9. AIT
10. Extreme Dimensions
11. Fiber Images
the list goes on and on.......you can add to the list if you want. I think twill weave has more support for the 350z market. However, in the s2000 market, it's all about plain weave.
Let's start with the basics:
Most CF parts in the automotive industry come in 2 types of weaves. 2x2 3K Twill weave and plain weave. Alot of people refer to plain weave as 1x1, but I think that is a misnomer. I could be wrong, but I never see "1x1" on the description on the box when we order carbon. People also refer to it as the "Spoon Weave," simply because that's what Spoon Japan uses for most of their CF parts.
Here's a good picture for comparison:
Plain weave on the left. Twill weave on the right. Plain weave looks like a bunch of small squares. Twill weave is more dramatic and zigzagged.
There are other weaves in Japan, but are very rare. I will show samples of those later.
Now let's talk about "DRY CARBON." Oooooo what's that?????
This is a tough one to explain because the term has been marketed in a number of different ways. Sometimes it gets confusing and I will tell you guys why.
First of all, the term "DRY CARBON" is a misnomer. No part is made out of just the carbon fiber fabric by itself. It always has to be a fiber and resin matrix. So if all carbon fiber parts have resin, how can it be dry???? Carbon fiber fabric by itself is dry, but like I said.... all parts are a fiber and resin matrix. The carbon fiber fabric by itself is very weak. The resin by itself is also weak. However, when you combine both together, it can create a very strong material, which is why it is used in the aerospace industry and such.
So what do companies mean when they are selling a "DRY CARBON" part? This is a bit tricky because it is a marketing term. Usually when a company is selling a dry carbon part, they are using "pre-preg" carbon.
What is "pre-preg" carbon?
Pre-preg carbon is carbon fiber fabric that already has resin in it. It is pre pregnated with resin. This stuff is very expensive and has to be kept in refrigeration. It becomes solid and cures with room temperature. The refrigeration keeps it from reaching curing point, hence useable to form shapes, however, pre-preg carbon does have a shelf life and it HAS to be used or it will go to waste. Usually pre-preg parts are used in conjunction with a vacuum bagging process, which helps the carbon fiber conform to the shape of the mold.
What are the benefits of pre-preg?
Pre-preg was designed to create strong parts. Pre-preg has just enough resin to saturate the carbon fiber fabric creating a strong and light part. In the world of composites, its all about fabric to resin ratio. The more resin a part has, the heavier and more brittle it will be. It is very difficult and I would even say impossible for handlaid carbon fiber parts, where the fabric is laid down and the resin is poured over the fabric, to have the same fabric to resin ratio as a pre-preg part. Hence, handlaid parts will be heavier and more brittle. But it looks damn good right??? The more resin in your CF part, the shinier it will be
. That's why pre-preg parts are often DULL-LOOKING, hence the marketing term........"DRY CARBON." The resin content is very low. However, dry carbon parts can be made shiny with the use of a clear gel coat or some type of automotive clear. This will also help protect your dry carbon parts, since it has no weather protection at all. Or you can keep washing it and hopefully it wont look as bad . Here's an example of a "dry carbon" part without any type of clear coating.
Here's a beautiful picture of an Amuse "dry-carbon" hardtop for an S2000 with some type of clear coating. (2x2 twill weave)
Most of the best CF stuff ever seen are made for the s2000. The s2000 guys love it. Amuse and ASM are companies that come to mind when people speak of "dry-carbon" parts.
Here's a picture of an ASM dry carbon front end.......with some clear coating? (2x2 twill weave)
Here's C-west's Plain weave dry carbon s2000.
Plain Weave CF manufacturers:
1. C west (this company is tricky because they often use both plain and twill....for example.........350z front lip is twill. Subaru WRX hood is Twill. S2000 hood is plain weave........go figure)
2. Spoon and Mugen (this probably only concerns the Honda Guys)
3. Fujita Engineering and RE-Amemiya ( this probably only concerns the RX7 guys)
4. Top Secret
5. Nismo
And many more.......
Twill Weave CF manufacturers:
1. Amuse
2. Varis (ex. 350z air duct and trunk)
3. C-west
4. ASM (does both twill and plain)
5. Evo-R (I'm sure they can do both, but the interior trim pieces i've seen are twill)
6. Seibon (but I'm starting to see some of the new stuff in plain weave. I heard it was because of shortage of twill weave in the market)
7. VIS
8. GTP/Importfan/C-wings
9. AIT
10. Extreme Dimensions
11. Fiber Images
the list goes on and on.......you can add to the list if you want. I think twill weave has more support for the 350z market. However, in the s2000 market, it's all about plain weave.
Last edited by ShineAutoProject; 10-09-2006 at 05:16 PM.
10-08-2006, 09:31 PM
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Originally Posted by jdm_Z33
dang ken your the teacher! So your a sponsor for this forum now? Awesome, you'll get alot of sales soon!!
Yep
. We'll try to educate.......not just sell parts . I'm not done with this write up buy the way. It's long so I have to split it into sections.
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10-08-2006, 09:58 PM
#9
Originally Posted by jdm_Z33
hey rick dogg what kind of rear cf hatch and doors are those??
It fits really well and only weighs 16lbs which isnt bad They gave them to me for SEMA last year and they have held up great.
Last edited by Rickdogg; 10-08-2006 at 10:00 PM.
10-08-2006, 10:02 PM
#10
Originally Posted by Rickdogg
The hatch is heavy *** Seibon, but it still saves some weight especially with the Lexan. The doors are believe it or not AIT racing It fits really well and only weighs 16lbs which isnt bad They gave them to me for SEMA last year and they have held up great.
It fits really well and only weighs 16lbs which isnt bad They gave them to me for SEMA last year and they have held up great.
10-08-2006, 10:04 PM
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Nice write up. You ought to think about adding your knowledge to the wikipedia article on CF too:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_fiber
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_fiber
10-08-2006, 10:04 PM
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ok.........that was longg..........but i have to continue .
I mentioned earlier that the term "Dry-Carbon" probably originated from the "dull" look associated with pre-preg carbon parts. Now what gets confusing is that you can get that dull look WITHOUT using pre-pregs. Which is why these companies should label their parts "pre-preg carbon" instead of "dry carbon." And pre-preg parts with a clear coat makes it even more confusing because SOMETIMES it looks just like a handlaid part. But the fabric looks more pressed.
ex. Amuse "dry-carbon" trunk. Looks like any other handlaid CF trunk to me. But still very nice.
Now......you can get the "dry" look a number of different ways. You can vacuum bag parts without using pre-pregs.....simply using carbon and resin and you can get that dry look.......as long as there isnt a clear coat. This will also create that pressed look.
A Vacuum infused part will also look similar to dry carbon parts as long as you dont use a clear coat. I will get into what vacuum infusion is later because this is the up and coming new process that everyone in the composites industry is raving about.
Even a handlaid part can look like a dry carbon part if a clear coat is not used. You can scuff the surface with some sand paper.......sand it down ........and you can get that dry carbon look. Even old oxidized handlaid hoods like from VIS will look dry after 5-10 years or so.
Here's a close picture of C-west's dry carboned S2000. You can start to see the wear and tear because it has no protective layer. I've seen much worse.
Now here's a picture of an old oxidized handlaid hood. I'm sure many of you have seem them around. Look for the really old VIS hoods.
See how they're almost the same after a while?
*Also note. You see all that cracking on top of the handlaid hood? That's all resin there baby. Maybe some surface coat. In my opinion, it's the excess resin because a painted car bumper doesn't crack like it's a windshield and those have clear coat. I highly doubt pre-preg parts, vacuum bagged, and vacuum infused parts crack like that. Don't get me wrong......they're not indestructible. I just don't think they crack like a piece of glass from my personal experience.
For the manufacturer...........any type of vacuum bagging process will probably be more expensive than a handlaid part......hence higher prices for parts. You get less flaws......air bubbles.....etc with vacuum bagging. Handlaid is humans at work and it's harder to be perfect. Less thorough. People make mistakes.......that's just the way it is.
. I mentioned earlier that the term "Dry-Carbon" probably originated from the "dull" look associated with pre-preg carbon parts. Now what gets confusing is that you can get that dull look WITHOUT using pre-pregs. Which is why these companies should label their parts "pre-preg carbon" instead of "dry carbon." And pre-preg parts with a clear coat makes it even more confusing because SOMETIMES it looks just like a handlaid part. But the fabric looks more pressed.
ex. Amuse "dry-carbon" trunk. Looks like any other handlaid CF trunk to me. But still very nice
. Now......you can get the "dry" look a number of different ways. You can vacuum bag parts without using pre-pregs.....simply using carbon and resin and you can get that dry look.......as long as there isnt a clear coat. This will also create that pressed look.
A Vacuum infused part will also look similar to dry carbon parts as long as you dont use a clear coat. I will get into what vacuum infusion is later because this is the up and coming new process that everyone in the composites industry is raving about.
Even a handlaid part can look like a dry carbon part if a clear coat is not used. You can scuff the surface with some sand paper.......sand it down ........and you can get that dry carbon look. Even old oxidized handlaid hoods like from VIS will look dry after 5-10 years or so.
Here's a close picture of C-west's dry carboned S2000. You can start to see the wear and tear because it has no protective layer. I've seen much worse
. Now here's a picture of an old oxidized handlaid hood. I'm sure many of you have seem them around. Look for the really old VIS hoods
. See how they're almost the same after a while?
*Also note. You see all that cracking on top of the handlaid hood? That's all resin there baby. Maybe some surface coat. In my opinion, it's the excess resin because a painted car bumper doesn't crack like it's a windshield and those have clear coat. I highly doubt pre-preg parts, vacuum bagged, and vacuum infused parts crack like that. Don't get me wrong......they're not indestructible. I just don't think they crack like a piece of glass from my personal experience.
For the manufacturer...........any type of vacuum bagging process will probably be more expensive than a handlaid part......hence higher prices for parts. You get less flaws......air bubbles.....etc with vacuum bagging. Handlaid is humans at work and it's harder to be perfect. Less thorough. People make mistakes.......that's just the way it is.
Last edited by ShineAutoProject; 10-08-2006 at 11:51 PM.
10-08-2006, 10:20 PM
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Originally Posted by mikeg8r
Nice write up. You ought to think about adding your knowledge to the wikipedia article on CF too:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_fiber
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_fiber
hahaha...........i don't think I'm THAT qualified for that. I just know what i learned and have seen. Like I mentioned in the beginning, I could be wrong on some of this stuff.
10-08-2006, 10:24 PM
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Originally Posted by mc350z
thanks for the write up!! lets make it a sticky! 
oh and as for carbon preference, i personally have always prefered the plain 1x1 weave
oh and as for carbon preference, i personally have always prefered the plain 1x1 weave
Ok let's sticky this thing
. Plain weave
10-08-2006, 11:06 PM
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Now here's the fun part.....
Which manufacturers make Twill Weave and which ones make Plain Weave CF parts?
You might want to keep this in mind if you are concerned about having a uniform carbon fiber weave for all your parts. It is not rare to see a car with mixed and matched weaves because different manufacturers prefer different weaves. You might have a twill weave hood and a plain weave front lip.
I will make a list from what I've seen. If you guys want to add something to the list, I can do that so everyone can reference from it.
Plain Weave CF manufacturers:
1. C west (this company is tricky because they often use both plain and twill....for example.........350z front lip is twill. Subaru WRX hood is Twill. S2000 hood is plain weave........go figure)
2. Spoon and Mugen (this probably only concerns the Honda Guys)
3. Fujita Engineering and RE-Amemiya ( this probably only concerns the RX7 guys)
4. Top Secret
And many more.......
Twill Weave CF manufacturers:
1. Amuse
2. Varis (ex. 350z air duct and trunk)
3. C-west
4. ASM (does both twill and plain)
5. Evo-R (I'm sure they can do both, but the interior trim pieces i've seen are twill)
6. Seibon (but I'm starting to see some of the new stuff in plain weave. I heard it was because of shortage of twill weave in the market)
7. VIS
8. GTP/Importfan/C-wings
9. AIT
10. Extreme Dimensions
the list goes on and on.......you can add to the list if you want. I think twill weave has more support for the 350z market. However, in the s2000 market, it's all about plain weave.
Here's a sample of the misc weaves I mentioned earlier that are much rarer.
Which manufacturers make Twill Weave and which ones make Plain Weave CF parts?
You might want to keep this in mind if you are concerned about having a uniform carbon fiber weave for all your parts. It is not rare to see a car with mixed and matched weaves because different manufacturers prefer different weaves. You might have a twill weave hood and a plain weave front lip.
I will make a list from what I've seen. If you guys want to add something to the list, I can do that so everyone can reference from it.
Plain Weave CF manufacturers:
1. C west (this company is tricky because they often use both plain and twill....for example.........350z front lip is twill. Subaru WRX hood is Twill. S2000 hood is plain weave........go figure)
2. Spoon and Mugen (this probably only concerns the Honda Guys)
3. Fujita Engineering and RE-Amemiya ( this probably only concerns the RX7 guys)
4. Top Secret
And many more.......
Twill Weave CF manufacturers:
1. Amuse
2. Varis (ex. 350z air duct and trunk)
3. C-west
4. ASM (does both twill and plain)
5. Evo-R (I'm sure they can do both, but the interior trim pieces i've seen are twill)
6. Seibon (but I'm starting to see some of the new stuff in plain weave. I heard it was because of shortage of twill weave in the market)
7. VIS
8. GTP/Importfan/C-wings
9. AIT
10. Extreme Dimensions
the list goes on and on.......you can add to the list if you want. I think twill weave has more support for the 350z market. However, in the s2000 market, it's all about plain weave.
Here's a sample of the misc weaves I mentioned earlier that are much rarer.
Last edited by ShineAutoProject; 10-08-2006 at 11:11 PM.
10-08-2006, 11:35 PM
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^ nismo uses plain 1x1 (at least for their most recent applications example being the V2 spoiler and B pillars.) they have been known to use other types as well though. the Z33 R-tune concept sported a 1x1 CF version of the V2 aero kit
Last edited by **; 10-08-2006 at 11:43 PM.
10-08-2006, 11:37 PM
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ShineAutoProject,
Good on you mate... take time to do these write up... I remember Jay posted something similar to this earlier too... but too bad it wasn't pinned up...
You can also add in those silver fibres, they aren't CF as I have been telling all our customers...
add to misc weaves... these are the cf/kevlar samples we made for Ford parts... looks very.... out-dated... But they are strong with kevlar... good for bucket seats...
cheers,
richie
Good on you mate... take time to do these write up... I remember Jay posted something similar to this earlier too... but too bad it wasn't pinned up...
You can also add in those silver fibres, they aren't CF as I have been telling all our customers...
add to misc weaves... these are the cf/kevlar samples we made for Ford parts... looks very.... out-dated...
But they are strong with kevlar... good for bucket seats...cheers,
richie