rai

well I think the Z is a little heavy for a 2 seater. The Z06 is at least a foot longer and several inches wider with a bigger engine and it weighs less. I know it's fiberglass.

The trend in heavier cars has been going on for decades. look at the honda CRX it was around 1800 lbs. I believe the insight is smaller inside and gets around the same milage but weighs like 2200 lbs (I think) even though weight was a priority.

I think the Z would be even better if it was 3000 lbs. no one can argue against that.

nosuchsol

The Z would be better at 2200lbs. as well... When you lose weight you also lose somewhere else. I'm sure they could have done more weight savings through the car which would as a DD would cause the car to not feel as solid(flimsy doors, more rattles, more spartan, cheaper materials). Or they could have gone through the weight savings process but through the expensive route - carbon fiber galore. =) It's a trade-off and Nissan did a good job of achieving a good balance.

You can't please 100% of the people all of the time.... so I think pleasing 80% is still good for profit.. lol

Michael-Dallas

Some things to ponder about:

The 350 is heavy -- it's waaay heavier than my SE-R. But, so is the S2000 and M3. On the same token, the 350 is also light -- it's waaay lighter than my 300. It's all in perspective.

Yes, weight is a corner's worst enemy. But in the 350's situation, i think the issue is slightly overplayed. I think the 350 has decent power/weight ratio and the weight is still low enough (IMO) that any cornering defencies can be corrected.

I've ridden shotgun in my friend's 3400+lb 993 Turbo a few times at TWS. I don't recall him ever having any difficulties going through corners at less than "lightning" speeds. In fact, the only thing I recall is me gripping the OS handle whenever he flies through turn 1 while barely on the brakes.

I recall a group of 3400+lb street-driven LS-1's at Hallett earlier this year that were bumped from green group to instructor group after their first session or two. Somehow, I doubt they had any problems turning because of weight.

Nissan's philosophy w/ the late model 300 was a sports car that was driver-oriented, yet easy & forgiving to drive. Apparently, that philosophy carries over w/ the 350. Correcting understeer on the 350 is as simple as dropping that staggered tire setup and putting rear rims/tires up front.

Michael.

frayed

Hmm, I take turn 1 with no brakes, at 125-130 mph.

I'll be interested in seeing how the svelte, no, make that porky, no, svelte Z car does at the track.

In any event, just b/c a car/driver combo got bumped up a few run groups is a testament to the driving ability, not car ability. This is why you'll see plenty of 120 hp Miatas in advanced run groups. Not b/c they are fast, but b/c they are well driven.

When folks start turning 2.00 laps at TWS in their Z's, I'll be impressed. Until then, I remain undecided on the Z's sporting abilities.

Michael-Dallas

Oh yeah, did I fail to mention that he does this in the rain?

Actually, there were a few 300's and a 350 at TWS a weekend or two ago. My 300-owning instructor friend drove the 350 for a session. Take it for what's it's worth, but his comments included the stock suspension feeling like his upgraded 300 suspension and the 350 having minor power deficit (I believe he only got up to 110-115 at the straight before turn 1).

Exactly. Light cars can go fast, but so can heavy cars (to some extent).

Correct me if I'm wrong, but 2.00 laps at TWS is REALLY damn good, eh? I don't think the 350 is gonna crank out the fastest lap times out of the box, but I think it will perform fairly well given the "negative credit" people have given it. Give it some time.

Michael.

TekNology

A turbocharger should even out the power to weight ratio just fine.....

frayed

2 flat is fast. Fast enough that most would consider such a lap 'fast'.

I turn 2.03-4's, with a fast lap of 2.01.

I'm getting there.

EDogg811

some of you are refusing to keep in mind that the 350z is a production car for public roads with slightly above average amenties and complete safety features--which are some of the culprits behind the weight. (the other major culprit are the materials used to build the car.) very few of Z owners actually track/race their cars, and for those who do, there are many things you can do to the Z as well, as all production cars, to make it lighter and more competitve. for starters, you can strip the interior, stereo, AC, airbags, sound deadening inserts, etc...and add some light weight body panels and rollcage. of course we all know this cuz it's "weight reduction 101"... and for the rest of Z owners (basically the majority) who are not serious track competitors, i'm sure they will not be happy driving a car on a regular basis, without any comfort or safety amenities. also, nissan could choose to utilize more light weight and exotic material for their engine, tranny, suspension, chassis, and body panels, but to build a car like that will up the Z's price to $45-55K, if not more. at that price, i doubt nissan will sell many Z's. the bottom line is that it is the general lay-consumers (i.e. non-racers, or serious performance drivers) whose volume helps to make the Z "profitable" for nissan. without them, the alternative would me an extremely more expensive Z, which most of us will not be able to afford and/or feel it's not worth purchasing...or worse, nissan would opt to NOT build a performance car like the Z at all!! so even though, in many aspects, the Z is "compromised," it is nonetheless the best any car company can offer for the price. but then again, all production cars are compromised. believe it or not, even performance-focused cars like the s2000 are compromised, cuz they can theorectically be designed to be lighter, more powerful, and better handling...

rodH

iTrader: (2)

well said, I remember in 94, my dad heard that a bearly used RX-7 was on a used car lot, he asked the guys to hold it for a few days so he could drive it/buy it. He came back and drove it, we talked about how he liked it, BUT he didn't (he just got rid of his 300ZXTT), he said it felt "cheap" and realizes that it was done to keep it light, he couldn't live with the car (btw, this is NOT a flame on rx-7s), soon after he bought a M3.

Although I was contemplating getting a S2000 vs the Z, as I drove the S2000 for a weekend, I had LOTS of fun, BUT the car is very minimal (again, not a rip on the S) and that is how Honda designed it. Basically we are looking at 2 cars that are near equals as far as performance and price, BUT 1 is a bit "light" while the other is about 100-150 lbs heavy. They both accomplish the game goal in different ways (I prefer the Z).

I would love it to bee 150 lbs lighter, BUT the car feels solid and I am NOT sure that it could be lightened more without making it MORE noisy or sacrificing something else (NO I dont want a Fiberglass body).

Many of the traditional M3 fans are mad at BMW for making that car a pig, even my dads CLK55 with a 5.5L V8, auto tranny and ROCK SOLID mercedes BUILD is lighter than the M (how the hell did that happen, also the old E55 is lighter than the M5, even though the M's are quicker, I don't understand how BMW makes the cars so dang heavy--esp when comparing the CLK vs a M3).

steve c

My R tipped the scales at 2558 with everything in it including an Amp and speaker -- and managed to feel rock solid.

My wifes Discovery is well into the 4k range (SE7 with ACE) and does not feel solid.

Personally I don't buy the Nissan made it heavier to make it feel more solid argument.

Boomer

You should get out of town more, the test for any sports car for me, is how it performs in the real world, highway miles are the surest test of any sports car. Ever driven through some of the MT. states? Spent 10 straight hours in a car traveling 75-90 or a 100mph on twisty roads? All I hear from you is the street and the track(artificial venue). The stoplight Grand Prix is not my concern. The street is so what to me, a sports car is not a dragster, they are bulit for corners and long drives somewhere other than where you grow up.

The ZO6 is an awesome car anywhere you drive it, but I wouldn't and didn't buy one because it is not an all around car, its a rocket sled designed to wow you with its power, so you'll forget that its uncomfortably loud every where you go. Its too wide for some roads, especially in Europe, where GM promised the German Vette Clubs, the C6 will be narrower, and more liveable than the C5's top model.

Also, I consider longevity a major part of a car's appeal. The 350Z will still be running strong after 7-8 years when other cars will have been sold by their owners who don't want to put out the bucks to repair or maintain them. I've lived long enough to see it and Consumer Reports has verified my beliefs.

The Z will take you where you want to go in relative comfort, at high average speeds with a minimum of fuss and your hearing undamaged. I love to watch road racing but I have no desire to put my daily driver in jeopardy by running into a wall or a tire barrier that will leave me with a piece of junk. I know racing improves the beed, but some one other than me will prove it with their car, not mine.

Boomer

frayed

So, basically what you are telling me is that you want a comfortable, fast, reasonably good handling, attractive car. Sounds more like a touring car than a sports car to me.

That's fine; in fact that's what the initial press releases from Nissan stated, that the Z would be more of a touring car. My pick for a reasonably priced touring car would be a used 540i Sport.

Well, I can't comment on the Z06 on the street, since my experience with it is on the track. However, I assure you that on a technical road course, it has much, much more than straight line speed. In fact, its handling trumps its hp.

Not that I'd buy one, however.

Hmm, you should take a look at BMWs then. More maintenance intensive than a Nissan, but built to last. At 60k miles on my 6 year old M3, it still dynos at 236 rwhp, is taut, and can run with the best of them on the track. I have friends in BMW Club Racing, with over 100k on their motors, still making lots of hp and running w/o drama.

A common misconception by folks who haven't been to Road Atlanta, Watkins Glen, Road America, Laguna Seca, or whatever track is local to you. Going to a road course, and taking a HPDE course is one the most fun, rewarding, and instructive things an automotive enthusiast can do. Well, those enthusiasts that love curves.

steve c

Err yeah a straight highway is the real home for a sports car. Moreover you will never find the limit and understand the handling dynamics of any car safely on a public road. If highway miles are all that matters, why not just buy a Civic or Camry and get it over with?

What? Let's see, it's quicker in the 1/4 , pulls more lateral G's, transitions better, and stops better than just about every stock street car out there, all for 50k -- and you can get nearly 30 MPG on the highway. I'd say that if you are willing to settle for a 2 seater the Z06 is THE all around car out there .... period.

frayed

LOL.

Michael-Dallas

So what's your theory as to why the 350 is "so heavy?"

Michael.

ares

iTrader: (2)

weight is safe, and I can explain why too.

take a honda civic, doing 60mph, now take an excursion doing 60mph, about 2.5times as heavy. head on collision. the civic will literally reverse direction from the momentum of the excursion.

crash tests are primarily done against solid barriers, non moving walls with slight padding. this is only real world if you hit a tree or wall, cars will be moving, changing the playing field.

anyway, weight is incured in the doors to give them that "thunk" sound rather then a tin jar sound. they use padding to make them solid and keep them from resonating. also the Z is EXTREMELY stiff, there is no flex in the frame as many lighter cars have. this contributes to why the Z handles as well as it does inspite of its weight.

Boomer

OH,YEAH! Actually, my favorite track is Laguna Seca, near Monterrey, Calif. My wife and I were there in 1966 when Jim Hall and Phil Hill appeared with aerodynamic Wings on a race car for the first time. Numbers 65 & 66 were running in the Can Am race in white Chapparals owned by Jim Hall, a Midland, Texas oilman and racer. Phil Hill won that day and Jim Hall finished second and automotive history was made. Aerodynamic wings on race cars were not ever seen before that day, and I was there. Everyone around us, we were sitting up on the hill, by the Corkscrew and those 7 liter big block engines sounded like thunder rumbling through those hills at Fort Ord. You did know the track was on a U.S. Military Reservation, didn't you?

We were there when CART made its debut also, some years later, but the winged Chapparrals were the Best. You should check the archives here, one of the members posted a picture of Jim Halls car.

Thanks for the tip about bmws, I owned a 1978 320i for about 2 yrs before I sold it because my wife hated it and we had just bought a 1972 240Z from a childhood friend.

My sister-in-law and her husband, who live in North Dallas, you know, over by Preston Road, bought 2 bmws, with my urging. They picked up a 1990 735 and 535 in Munich and got a 2000 740iL a couple of yrs ago. They've had some trouble with the 740 though, its stranded my sister-in-law a couple of times when the ECU failed. Her husband and I were going to Munich in 2001 to pick up an M3 for me and a 540i for him and drive down to the Cote d'Azur, but I had an accident and couldn't travel for months, so he bought a loaded Tahoe instead. He and my sister-in-law fight over who gets the Tahoe because they like it better than the 740! I, on the other hand, am relieved since the new M3s have had such pesky trouble with rods and bearings blowing up their engines.

Your suggestion about a used 540i Sport Sedan would be OK, so long as it wasn't part of the 3 and 4 liter V8s that wore out the cylinders early because of the high sulfer content of U,S. gasoline.

As for the Z06, I wasn't very comfortable in it or its siblings, since I'm 6'5" and 285lbs. I have a problem getting cars that fit, except for my 91 MR2 Turbo that I owned for 7 years and 128,000 miles, you know, the mid-engine, 2 seat, 5speed, MarkII model Sports Car? I really loved that car and I drove it all over Oklahoma as my business car. You just can't beat a mid-engine, 2 seat, 5 speed Sports Car as a company car!

As for the Z, I bought the Touring model w/ the 5AT Manumatic, you know, kinda like the Sportmatic on bmw Sedans, like you can get on your M3 Sedan. I love it, its a welcome and fun change from over 3 decades of manual transmissions on my Sports Cars, dating back to my very first new car, a 1965 Triumph TR4, 2 seater, 4 speed manual with British Racing Green paint, black bucket seats and a white vinyl build-it-yourself detachable top that stored in the boot and with the extra parts(fan belts and hoses mostly) Sports Car drivers always carried to avoid being stranded in faraway places. Thanks very much for your sage advice, old boy.

Boomer--theres nothing like being there at the beginning.

frayed

I just read your whole post, the Boomer automotive diary. Quite impressive.

But, you seemed to leave out the part about driving on the track. You know, a road course. like the famed Laguna Seca you reference. Where you can safely explore the limits of your Z, and determine whether the Z is or is not FAT. On the track, particularly with sticky tires, weight tends to bear its ugly head. While on the interstate at 80 mph with a latte in your cupholder, the hefty sprung weight makes travel uneventful.

So, what do you say, old boy? It's never too late to try your hand, even if somewhat unsteady.

As for bimmers, I have 200,000 miles behind the wheel of various bimmers. Never once stranded, towed, or otherwise had any sort of harrowing issues. Perhaps you are hexed.

I had worse luck with my last car, a Honda S2000.

steve c

The same reason all cars have porked out over the past 10 years. There is not a single factor -- safety? Yes, Increased torsional rigidity? Sure, Creature comforts (heater leather power seats, power windows/mirrors, bigger wheels and tires).

It still amazes me that Audi for instance manages to make a car with less rear leg room than an Integra -- the S4 yet it weighs nearly 1000 pounds more. Did they get a deal on depleted uranium?

No, there is plenty of flex in any chassis. Generally a lower frequency mode is a good thing in terms of torsional rigidity -- but that is not to say that X car will handle better than Y car because it is more rigid.