Porsche Persons Response To Z
07-01-2002, 01:27 PM
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Porsche Persons Response To Z
I asked some porsche people why they would choose the Boxster over the Z and this is what they said .. i would like to hear your responses to this ..
=====================
Star Boxster Rant
=====================
In my opinion, you can buy a number of cars which will give you
performance somewhat similar to the Boxster S for a lot less $.
I doubt anybody can give you a tangible, objective argument
based strictly on performance as to why the Boxster S should
cost 20K more than the Nissan.
But now let me tell you why I would pay the difference and why I
would not even consider owning the Nissan.
1) Design
The Nissan is the latest trendy design which will look tired and
dated in 2 or 3 years. Surely the next generation of the car 5
years from now will have significant design modifications and
the 1st generation will depreciate dramatically at that point.
The Porsche is a classic cool design which will evolve over time
as all Porsches have, but changes will be subtle, which is one of
the reasons that 15 year old 911s still look great, while 15 year
old Nisssans look like, well, 15 year old Nissans.
2) Value
As mentioned above, lets see what your Nissan is worth in a few
years.
3) Exclusivity
Do you really want to drive a Nissan? Heck, why not just get a
Saturn.
4) The Dealer Experience
To me the difference between visiting a Nissan dealer and a
Porsche dealer is similar to the difference between shopping at
Wal-Mart and shopping at Nieman Marcus.
Yes, you can get a real good value at Wal-Mart and if thats what
you want, then that option is available to you.
5) Authenticity
The last person mentioned originality which I agree with - so I
want go on and on about that.
For me, my decision about what to buy is based on the sum
total of many factors, and price, performance, value, the dealer
experience, etc. are all part of it.
But if you want the absolute most performance for the least
money the 350z may be for you.
=====================
Star Boxster Rant
=====================
In my opinion, you can buy a number of cars which will give you
performance somewhat similar to the Boxster S for a lot less $.
I doubt anybody can give you a tangible, objective argument
based strictly on performance as to why the Boxster S should
cost 20K more than the Nissan.
But now let me tell you why I would pay the difference and why I
would not even consider owning the Nissan.
1) Design
The Nissan is the latest trendy design which will look tired and
dated in 2 or 3 years. Surely the next generation of the car 5
years from now will have significant design modifications and
the 1st generation will depreciate dramatically at that point.
The Porsche is a classic cool design which will evolve over time
as all Porsches have, but changes will be subtle, which is one of
the reasons that 15 year old 911s still look great, while 15 year
old Nisssans look like, well, 15 year old Nissans.
2) Value
As mentioned above, lets see what your Nissan is worth in a few
years.
3) Exclusivity
Do you really want to drive a Nissan? Heck, why not just get a
Saturn.
4) The Dealer Experience
To me the difference between visiting a Nissan dealer and a
Porsche dealer is similar to the difference between shopping at
Wal-Mart and shopping at Nieman Marcus.
Yes, you can get a real good value at Wal-Mart and if thats what
you want, then that option is available to you.
5) Authenticity
The last person mentioned originality which I agree with - so I
want go on and on about that.
For me, my decision about what to buy is based on the sum
total of many factors, and price, performance, value, the dealer
experience, etc. are all part of it.
But if you want the absolute most performance for the least
money the 350z may be for you.
07-01-2002, 03:17 PM
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If you look at it from a Z enthusiast's standpoint, you could make these counterpoints:
1) Design
This argument might apply to the 911 but some Porsche enthusiasts put down the styling of the post 1997 911s as being bland compared to the prior models (too smooth and not enough curves).
The new Z has a few styling elements that tie it back to a car that is almost as long-lived as the 911. The Boxster is a new model that does not yet have a long heritage.
2) Value
If you plan to keep the car for a long time, depreciation is less of an issue.
Some 240Zs in good condition have sold for more than they cost new.
3) Exclusivity
Boxsters are very common. If you want exclusivity, buy the new Maserati or a Lotus Espirit. Either can be had for a price that’s in the same ballpark of a loaded 911.
4) The Dealer Experience
It really depends on the dealership but in general the Porsche fan is right. High end car dealers will treat you better but there is a huge price to pay for that treatment.
5) Authenticity
I didn’t see the prior post this comment referred to, so I don’t know which side is being taken. In any case, the Z has a much longer heritage than the Boxster
1) Design
This argument might apply to the 911 but some Porsche enthusiasts put down the styling of the post 1997 911s as being bland compared to the prior models (too smooth and not enough curves).
The new Z has a few styling elements that tie it back to a car that is almost as long-lived as the 911. The Boxster is a new model that does not yet have a long heritage.
2) Value
If you plan to keep the car for a long time, depreciation is less of an issue.
Some 240Zs in good condition have sold for more than they cost new.
3) Exclusivity
Boxsters are very common. If you want exclusivity, buy the new Maserati or a Lotus Espirit. Either can be had for a price that’s in the same ballpark of a loaded 911.
4) The Dealer Experience
It really depends on the dealership but in general the Porsche fan is right. High end car dealers will treat you better but there is a huge price to pay for that treatment.
5) Authenticity
I didn’t see the prior post this comment referred to, so I don’t know which side is being taken. In any case, the Z has a much longer heritage than the Boxster
07-01-2002, 03:45 PM
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Re: Porsche Persons Response To Z
Originally posted by 350zpower
In my opinion, you can buy a number of cars which will give you
performance somewhat similar to the Boxster S for a lot less $.
In my opinion, you can buy a number of cars which will give you
performance somewhat similar to the Boxster S for a lot less $.
Originally posted by 350zpower
1) Design
The Nissan is the latest trendy design which will look tired and
dated in 2 or 3 years. Surely the next generation of the car 5
years from now will have significant design modifications and
the 1st generation will depreciate dramatically at that point.
1) Design
The Nissan is the latest trendy design which will look tired and
dated in 2 or 3 years. Surely the next generation of the car 5
years from now will have significant design modifications and
the 1st generation will depreciate dramatically at that point.
Originally posted by 350zpower
The Porsche is a classic cool design which will evolve over time
as all Porsches have, but changes will be subtle, which is one of
the reasons that 15 year old 911s still look great, while 15 year
old Nisssans look like, well, 15 year old Nissans.
The Porsche is a classic cool design which will evolve over time
as all Porsches have, but changes will be subtle, which is one of
the reasons that 15 year old 911s still look great, while 15 year
old Nisssans look like, well, 15 year old Nissans.
Originally posted by 350zpower
2) Value
As mentioned above, lets see what your Nissan is worth in a few
years.
2) Value
As mentioned above, lets see what your Nissan is worth in a few
years.
Originally posted by 350zpower
3) Exclusivity
Do you really want to drive a Nissan? Heck, why not just get a
Saturn.
3) Exclusivity
Do you really want to drive a Nissan? Heck, why not just get a
Saturn.
"What!?!? No Ferrari 360 Modena? Do you really want to drive a Boxster? Heck, why not just get Hyuandai Tiburon."
Originally posted by 350zpower
4) The Dealer Experience
To me the difference between visiting a Nissan dealer and a
Porsche dealer is similar to the difference between shopping at
Wal-Mart and shopping at Nieman Marcus.
Yes, you can get a real good value at Wal-Mart and if thats what
you want, then that option is available to you.
4) The Dealer Experience
To me the difference between visiting a Nissan dealer and a
Porsche dealer is similar to the difference between shopping at
Wal-Mart and shopping at Nieman Marcus.
Yes, you can get a real good value at Wal-Mart and if thats what
you want, then that option is available to you.
Originally posted by 350zpower
5) Authenticity
The last person mentioned originality which I agree with - so I
want go on and on about that.
For me, my decision about what to buy is based on the sum
total of many factors, and price, performance, value, the dealer
experience, etc. are all part of it.
5) Authenticity
The last person mentioned originality which I agree with - so I
want go on and on about that.
For me, my decision about what to buy is based on the sum
total of many factors, and price, performance, value, the dealer
experience, etc. are all part of it.
My friends and I have always been amused at how these Boxster drivers seem to think they have a supercar of some sort because they are driving a Porsche. Folks, lets get real. Its not a supercar and the only reason you are driving a Boxster is because you could not afford a Carerra or a 911 Turbo.
Fact is, Boxster is a good car and is fun to drive. But for equal or lesser amount of $$ you can now get something just as good performance and lookwise. And, this is making a lot of Boxster owners insecure.
Memo to all Boxster drivers. If Nissan name does not appeal to you, for the same amount of $$ , image, and dealership experience of Boxster, you can get a much better deal. It's called an E46 M3.
Last edited by Zboy; 07-01-2002 at 03:51 PM.
07-01-2002, 04:34 PM
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The only Porsche' that deserve top dollar are those built in Germany. The Boxster is built in Norway at a cookie cutter plant...they built it for the low end market and it performs at the low end on the Porsche scale of performance. 911's are real Porsche', please leave the Boxster out of any comparisons between Nissan and Porsche. Dollar for dollar, Nissan is the new leader, as proven with the 350z and the G35.
07-01-2002, 05:16 PM
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Boxster
I'm not sure the exact numbers, but I think the Boxster is like 10,000 cars a year. thats a lot less than the 350Z, but not rare by any means. Look at the number of 911 turbos, or better yet ferrari I was looking at an article about the 328GTS there were like 5500 328's built, compair to Boxster like 60,000 and counting. The fact is with most cars the more expencive a car is the less are made. This is not because they are limited editions, but because there are less people able to drop $50-200K on a car. Again I'm not sure of the numbers, but in the US if there are 15 million cars a year, I would guess that only about 1 million are over $50K.
I love porsche, but like the 924/944 the boxster is an entry level car. People buying Boxsters usually can't spend another $25-75K to get the 911. Look at the 924/944 now. They usually look like crappy 15-20 year old cars. Now if you see a beautiful example it looks nice, just like if you see a beautiful 240Z it also looks nice. Also the boxster was intended to be true entry level car priced in the $30's, but the initial frenzy caused porsche to see that they could charge $40-50 so why not?
True the porsches do retain their resale value better than nissans but what does that mean in the real world? Lets say a boxster S costs $50K after 5 years it is worth 65% you are out $17,500. Now with a Z at $30K, only worth 50% after five you are only out $15K. And thats not including interest on the extra $20K that will add another $4K to the porsche. Also the Porsche will be more to insure.
The main thing is with a porsche people KNOW you have money, chicks love guys with money. Therefore chicks love guys with porsche.
Bottom line I will pay more for performance (see M3/NSX/911), but I will not pay more for so called resale value or image.
I love porsche, but like the 924/944 the boxster is an entry level car. People buying Boxsters usually can't spend another $25-75K to get the 911. Look at the 924/944 now. They usually look like crappy 15-20 year old cars. Now if you see a beautiful example it looks nice, just like if you see a beautiful 240Z it also looks nice. Also the boxster was intended to be true entry level car priced in the $30's, but the initial frenzy caused porsche to see that they could charge $40-50 so why not?
True the porsches do retain their resale value better than nissans but what does that mean in the real world? Lets say a boxster S costs $50K after 5 years it is worth 65% you are out $17,500. Now with a Z at $30K, only worth 50% after five you are only out $15K. And thats not including interest on the extra $20K that will add another $4K to the porsche. Also the Porsche will be more to insure.
The main thing is with a porsche people KNOW you have money, chicks love guys with money. Therefore chicks love guys with porsche.
Bottom line I will pay more for performance (see M3/NSX/911), but I will not pay more for so called resale value or image.
07-01-2002, 06:57 PM
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I had a '97 911 for 4.5 yrs. and have dreaded the day I sold it (1 yr. ago) until now. Now I look forward to a car that will....hopefully...retain it's classic lines over time. Can't wait until my Z comes to me.
07-01-2002, 07:27 PM
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I had a '95 911 for eight months. What an over-priced piece of crap. Noisy and fragile, it was in the shop at least four times for electronic problems. And try to get the the air-conditioner to work well if it's over 100 degrees outside. Forgettaboutit. I had a '93 Z32TT at the same time, and it was a much better, much more enjoyable car.
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07-01-2002, 08:37 PM
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Owning a Porsche...
...cured me of ever wanting to own another. I had a 944 before buying my first 300 TT and my buddy had two 911s and they were all nothing but headaches.
The exclusivity of that name badge pales quickly when you spend $1200 - $2000 a year on maintenance and repairs in addition to tires, brake pads and oil changes to keep it on the road. Simple parts (like water pumps) are $1200 - $1,500 parts due to Porsche's limited production volumes and penchant for designing all of their own pieces. It reached the point that every time you heard a new squeak or rattle you wondered "god, whats going wrong now and how many $thousands$ will it cost to fix?"
And don't buy that depreciation line either. Yes, they retain value - if you don't drive them. There's lots of Porsches sold as toys to the wealthy who put only a few thousand miles on them a year. These cream puffs get good resale because they're 5 years old and only have 5,000 miles on them. But put 10,000 or 12,000 miles a year on yours and the value will plummet like a rock. And the resale of Porsche's entry level cars - which is after all what the Boxter is - have invariably been terrible once the cars have been on the market for 4 or 5 years. Just look at what happened to the 914 and 944.
And don't get me started about the fit, finish and quality of interior materials. I've been in lots of Boxters (a plastic rear window for god's sake?) and new 911s and there is nothing inside that justifies prices in the $50k + range.
Been there, done that, not going back....
joe
The exclusivity of that name badge pales quickly when you spend $1200 - $2000 a year on maintenance and repairs in addition to tires, brake pads and oil changes to keep it on the road. Simple parts (like water pumps) are $1200 - $1,500 parts due to Porsche's limited production volumes and penchant for designing all of their own pieces. It reached the point that every time you heard a new squeak or rattle you wondered "god, whats going wrong now and how many $thousands$ will it cost to fix?"
And don't buy that depreciation line either. Yes, they retain value - if you don't drive them. There's lots of Porsches sold as toys to the wealthy who put only a few thousand miles on them a year. These cream puffs get good resale because they're 5 years old and only have 5,000 miles on them. But put 10,000 or 12,000 miles a year on yours and the value will plummet like a rock. And the resale of Porsche's entry level cars - which is after all what the Boxter is - have invariably been terrible once the cars have been on the market for 4 or 5 years. Just look at what happened to the 914 and 944.
And don't get me started about the fit, finish and quality of interior materials. I've been in lots of Boxters (a plastic rear window for god's sake?) and new 911s and there is nothing inside that justifies prices in the $50k + range.
Been there, done that, not going back....
joe
07-01-2002, 08:39 PM
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I had an '89 C4 911 but the car I drove every day was my '88 Z. The Porsche was a nice car and more of a crowd pleaser but the car that pleased me overall better was the Z. I was glad to get the Porsche and equally glad to get rid of it. When my '03 comes in I know I'll have a huge lump in my throat as the dealer drives my ol' Z away. When the Porsche drove away the only lump I got was in my wallet.
07-01-2002, 09:25 PM
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I'll keep mine short and to the point.
I was sitting at a Wendy's with a Carrera owner the other day. He didn't know I had ordered the 350Z yet. We saw a Boxster S drive by when a mutual friend oohed and aahed. My Carrera friend just kind of chuckled and we asked why.
He made the comment that the Boxster just depreciates too fast to make it worth owning a Porsche. He couldn't see anybody speding that money for a car that doesn't hold up its value and can be bought in other manufacturers names.
When he later found out that I had bought a 350Z, he did get a little excited which I would say is a lot from someone who drives a Carrera daily.
I was sitting at a Wendy's with a Carrera owner the other day. He didn't know I had ordered the 350Z yet. We saw a Boxster S drive by when a mutual friend oohed and aahed. My Carrera friend just kind of chuckled and we asked why.
He made the comment that the Boxster just depreciates too fast to make it worth owning a Porsche. He couldn't see anybody speding that money for a car that doesn't hold up its value and can be bought in other manufacturers names.
When he later found out that I had bought a 350Z, he did get a little excited which I would say is a lot from someone who drives a Carrera daily.
07-01-2002, 09:28 PM
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Ah yes.....
...the notorious "it's not a real Porsche" response. That's the other thing about entry level Porsches. The 911 owners snub you because the cheap ones aren't real Porsches in their eyes.
joe
joe
07-01-2002, 09:44 PM
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Re: Ah yes.....
Originally posted by Sanderman
...the notorious "it's not a real Porsche" response. That's the other thing about entry level Porsches. The 911 owners snub you because the cheap ones aren't real Porsches in their eyes.
joe
...the notorious "it's not a real Porsche" response. That's the other thing about entry level Porsches. The 911 owners snub you because the cheap ones aren't real Porsches in their eyes.
joe
07-01-2002, 10:19 PM
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Rai
True the porsches do retain their resale value better than nissans but what does that mean in the real world? Lets say a boxster S costs $50K after 5 years it is worth 65% you are out $17,500. Now with a Z at $30K, only worth 50% after five you are only out $15K. And thats not including interest on the extra $20K that will add another $4K to the porsche. Also the Porsche will be more to insure.
07-01-2002, 10:32 PM
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doooood..... I think its funny how one guy thinks hes driving the the nordstrom and the "other" has the walmart. Forinstance, the 911 guys think the boxster is the walmart!
Here's how I look at it
Ferrari: custom designer e.g. Armani, Prada, Vesace from stores we have never been to...unless you live on Rodeo Dr.
Porche: Designer stuff from Macy's
Boxster: Nordstoms. Maybe check out an occaional half yearly sale
350z: Anywhere as long as you find the best quality stuff at good prices. Definetely the smartest kind of person around. (not j/k)
Acura RSX: hip clothing stores in the mall/maybe target
kia/hyundai: Walmart
used hyundai: Good Will
******disclaimer: this does not mean that the people that drive these cars shop at these places, it just store equivalents!
Here's how I look at it
Ferrari: custom designer e.g. Armani, Prada, Vesace from stores we have never been to...unless you live on Rodeo Dr.
Porche: Designer stuff from Macy's
Boxster: Nordstoms. Maybe check out an occaional half yearly sale
350z: Anywhere as long as you find the best quality stuff at good prices. Definetely the smartest kind of person around. (not j/k)
Acura RSX: hip clothing stores in the mall/maybe target
kia/hyundai: Walmart
used hyundai: Good Will
******disclaimer: this does not mean that the people that drive these cars shop at these places, it just store equivalents!
07-01-2002, 10:57 PM
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Re: #4 is right
Originally posted by Kyle
He's definitely right about #4, other that that he might be a snob.
He's definitely right about #4, other that that he might be a snob.
Spencer
07-01-2002, 11:01 PM
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My family has bought many many Nissans from Regal and have become friends with each of the sales managers they have had since 1990. It pretty much pissed my family off when after buying so many cars from them and bringing in other friends and family to buy as well that even after all that business they still demanded $3,000 over MSRP. Even after helping them sell 15 or more cars over the years they treated me like Joe Shmo coming off the street. They only pretend like they care about their customers. Perhaps later Nissan put pressure on them so they decided to sell at just MSRP but they burned this bridge.
Last edited by kroams; 07-01-2002 at 11:05 PM.
07-01-2002, 11:26 PM
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Originally posted by kroams
My family has bought many many Nissans from Regal and have become friends with each of the sales managers they have had since 1990. It pretty much pissed my family off when after buying so many cars from them and bringing in other friends and family to buy as well that even after all that business they still demanded $3,000 over MSRP. Even after helping them sell 15 or more cars over the years they treated me like Joe Shmo coming off the street. They only pretend like they care about their customers. Perhaps later Nissan put pressure on them so they decided to sell at just MSRP but they burned this bridge.
My family has bought many many Nissans from Regal and have become friends with each of the sales managers they have had since 1990. It pretty much pissed my family off when after buying so many cars from them and bringing in other friends and family to buy as well that even after all that business they still demanded $3,000 over MSRP. Even after helping them sell 15 or more cars over the years they treated me like Joe Shmo coming off the street. They only pretend like they care about their customers. Perhaps later Nissan put pressure on them so they decided to sell at just MSRP but they burned this bridge.
. Despite the change in price, they have still worked with me on a number of issues and have definitely gone beyond "Joe Schmo" status for me, but I suppose time will tell (we will really know when I get a bid from them for financing). If they **** me off I will definitely let everyone here know about it.Spencer
07-01-2002, 11:36 PM
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I am glad that has worked out well for you so far. I of course couldn't blame the sales guy for trying to make as much money as possible but it made me mad when the sales manager and onwer of the dealership said "tough ****, I could get $10,000 over MSRP if I wanted to by waiting a little longer." Granted they didn't actually go that route but it made me mad that after giving them so much business for 10+ years they had that kind of attitude.
Dan Vaden Nissan in Savannah was even worse. They agreed to MSRP with a $500 deposit (great deal!) and I drove all the way from Atlanta to Savannah to sign the papers. Once I get to Savannah (4+ hour drive each way) it turns out the sales manager never got it approved by the general manager. The general manager to my face said that he didn't care we had an agreement and plans to squeeze every penny to get hopefully $10K over MSRP. Considering their advertisements say they never take advantage of their customers and always charge a fair price I thought it was funny. A few months later I was visisting a friend in Savannah and on TV they had a commercial with the general manager talking about what a fair dealership Dan Vaden Nissan is. It was so funny since on TV he seemed like such a nice down to earth guy yet in real life he threw me out of his office since he didn't want to live up to their agreement. There are some bad dealerships out there.
Dan Vaden Nissan in Savannah was even worse. They agreed to MSRP with a $500 deposit (great deal!) and I drove all the way from Atlanta to Savannah to sign the papers. Once I get to Savannah (4+ hour drive each way) it turns out the sales manager never got it approved by the general manager. The general manager to my face said that he didn't care we had an agreement and plans to squeeze every penny to get hopefully $10K over MSRP. Considering their advertisements say they never take advantage of their customers and always charge a fair price I thought it was funny. A few months later I was visisting a friend in Savannah and on TV they had a commercial with the general manager talking about what a fair dealership Dan Vaden Nissan is. It was so funny since on TV he seemed like such a nice down to earth guy yet in real life he threw me out of his office since he didn't want to live up to their agreement. There are some bad dealerships out there.