What is Grey Market?
03-12-2007, 08:03 AM
#62
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I have two examples of grey marketed purchases I have made:
I bought Zeal coilovers brand new from Japan for S14 - $1800
(Zeal coilovers from US vendor - $2200)
Arai SA2005 closed face helmets straight from Japan - $400
(Same helmet from Arai US - $700-$800)
US vendors/importers are (how I see it, the consumer) considered middle men and the markup is insane on some JDM parts. If I can get the same product directly from Japan, why go through the US vendor? Warranty is one and good customer support for another. But if I'm saving $500, I'm going to save $500. Zeal actually honored my warranty but they def hesitated.
Customer support with some vendors is lacking (return policies that suck). The internet has provided a worldwide link to all products and grey marketing is not going to end. Buyers need to be smart and the companies that import need to try and equalize prices which is hard when you have 2-3 people making money on an imported product. I think that is part of the problem. PROFITS!!
I bought Zeal coilovers brand new from Japan for S14 - $1800
(Zeal coilovers from US vendor - $2200)
Arai SA2005 closed face helmets straight from Japan - $400
(Same helmet from Arai US - $700-$800)
US vendors/importers are (how I see it, the consumer) considered middle men and the markup is insane on some JDM parts. If I can get the same product directly from Japan, why go through the US vendor? Warranty is one and good customer support for another. But if I'm saving $500, I'm going to save $500. Zeal actually honored my warranty but they def hesitated.
Customer support with some vendors is lacking (return policies that suck). The internet has provided a worldwide link to all products and grey marketing is not going to end. Buyers need to be smart and the companies that import need to try and equalize prices which is hard when you have 2-3 people making money on an imported product. I think that is part of the problem. PROFITS!!
Last edited by seanlaw; 03-12-2007 at 08:08 AM.
03-12-2007, 09:24 AM
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Ok all the vendors that posted on this thread how do i even know your not grey market.
From what i understand of this thread, ill break it down tell me if im wrong.
Enkei makes wheel.
I want to the buy wheel.
I think of place.
Official Middle man Or Import from greymarket?
I choose grey market, Enkei still got money for wheel.
Middle man avoided.
Enkei still profited and so did i.
Wheres the flaw in how my thought process went?
From what i understand of this thread, ill break it down tell me if im wrong.
Enkei makes wheel.
I want to the buy wheel.
I think of place.
Official Middle man Or Import from greymarket?
I choose grey market, Enkei still got money for wheel.
Middle man avoided.
Enkei still profited and so did i.
Wheres the flaw in how my thought process went?
03-12-2007, 11:56 AM
#66
Originally Posted by Forrest80
Ok all the vendors that posted on this thread how do i even know your not grey market.
From what i understand of this thread, ill break it down tell me if im wrong.
Enkei makes wheel.
I want to the buy wheel.
I think of place.
Official Middle man Or Import from greymarket?
I choose grey market, Enkei still got money for wheel.
Middle man avoided.
Enkei still profited and so did i.
Wheres the flaw in how my thought process went?
From what i understand of this thread, ill break it down tell me if im wrong.
Enkei makes wheel.
I want to the buy wheel.
I think of place.
Official Middle man Or Import from greymarket?
I choose grey market, Enkei still got money for wheel.
Middle man avoided.
Enkei still profited and so did i.
Wheres the flaw in how my thought process went?
Very efficient companies like Greddy/Trust create a uniform global price versus price discrimination by region.
Some of the US pricing is almost as if prices for a product in each state was different and we charged an extra 20% to some states but not to others.
Economics 101 - Price discrimination occurs to maximize profits.
Cheers,
Gary
Gruppe-S
03-12-2007, 12:03 PM
#67
Originally Posted by NoahzBurnt
for example: let's say if you want a dog in the US you need to buy one thru "puppy city" or a pet shop that gets them from there....puppy city guarantees their dogs to be free of defects and disease for life......if you buy a dog from other than a verified puppy city pooch you have a grey market mutt....
the reason grey market hurts the consumer...let's say u buy a dog in the US from a pet store.....being it's a dog u assume it has the same warranty as any dog but this store sells them much cheaper....should the dog have a disease or defect you are on your own all because you wanted to save a few $$$....the vet bill is always going to cost more in the end
the reason grey market hurts the consumer...let's say u buy a dog in the US from a pet store.....being it's a dog u assume it has the same warranty as any dog but this store sells them much cheaper....should the dog have a disease or defect you are on your own all because you wanted to save a few $$$....the vet bill is always going to cost more in the end
The reality is there are multiple breeders to choose the puppies from and they are rated on a letter scale. If you get an "A" puppy from a well known breeder, it is an "A" puppy. If the disease is a result of breeding or otherwise caused by the breeder, the breeder will take the puppy back REGARDLESS of where it is sold as long as one can demonstrate it was bred by a certain breeder. If you're comparing a "C" dog from a small breeder to an "A" dog from a high quality breeder then it's not the same thing. It's like trying to compare a Volk wheel with a replica wheel...
Gary
Gruppe-S
03-12-2007, 08:42 PM
#68
Originally Posted by Forrest80
Ok all the vendors that posted on this thread how do i even know your not grey market.
From what i understand of this thread, ill break it down tell me if im wrong.
Enkei makes wheel.
I want to the buy wheel.
I think of place.
Official Middle man Or Import from greymarket?
I choose grey market, Enkei still got money for wheel.
Middle man avoided.
Enkei still profited and so did i.
Wheres the flaw in how my thought process went?
From what i understand of this thread, ill break it down tell me if im wrong.
Enkei makes wheel.
I want to the buy wheel.
I think of place.
Official Middle man Or Import from greymarket?
I choose grey market, Enkei still got money for wheel.
Middle man avoided.
Enkei still profited and so did i.
Wheres the flaw in how my thought process went?
1. One of the Enkei wheels bent. Need 1 replacement wheel.
2. Call grey market supplier. Non in stock. Need to wait 4 weeks for next container.
3. Alternative option, pay gret market supplier extra for air freight for wheel to ship from Japan.
4. Another month later, need another replacement. Wait another 4 weeks or pay the premium for shipping from Japan.
5. Enkei profited, but did you ?
How did supporting the official distributor change this situation ?
1. Official distributor usually are required by the manufacture to keep certain quantity of the line in stock for faster delivery. They are required to support the products from warranty, replacement, accessories, information and communication betweem the retail customer to the manufactures. Basically everything and anything about the product line must be supported by the official distributor. They are the direct representative of the manufacture.
In cases like above, you can most likely purchase a replacement wheel from the official distributor right away since they will have it in stock.
Or you can wait for your grey market vendor to contact his distributor from Japan, who may or may not be the direct distributor of the manufacture. If they are not direct, then you will have to wait till their distributor to contact the manufacture. If anyone of them miss or screw up the order, then your replacement wheel will take even longer to get to you !
2. Some vendors like to grey market products because it is more profitable. They usually don't care about the line or the long term life span of the product in the market. In most cases, if the product is not profitable, they will stop carrying it and just tell their customer sorry we don't deal with that line any more. They don't have an obligation to support the line.
3. Yes, Enkei still received the money for your wheels. The money came from their Japan distributor not from USA. What will they see if grey market sales is greater than official distributor sales in USA ? They will see that USA sales drop and it's non-profitable, ok let's cut R&D for USA. Will that hurt the USA market ? Of course it will ! Who profited ? Not the end consumer but rather the grey market vendors that are out there to make a quick bucks.
4. There are two forms of grey market sales.
A. Vendor purchase through grey market method to obtain a product for a time sensative project or dead line for the customer. They are forced to use this method after exhausting the option from purchasing through the official chanel. These type of grey marketing generally won't hurt the market.
B. Vendor purchase large amount of grey market products and bring into the market and under cut official distributor pricing. These type of aggression marketing technique will only profit the grey market vendors and will hurt the official distributors and in the long run will hurt the end user.
5. Price differences between country happen in all products. Cost are different at each country. Marketing cost, average living cost, logistic cost, warehouse, etc all have different cost from country to country. I am not familiar with 350Z pricing, but retail price for a J Spec STI is $29,000 USD while a US Spec STI retail at $34,000 USD.
Is Subaru USA trying to maximized their profit or they just figuring out how much they need to sell the car to the retail customer in order for them to continue supplying the STI to USA customers and continue to support the car in all aspect !
Just my opinion.
03-13-2007, 02:21 AM
#69
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I hear what your saying Mark, but on the reverse, what of a case where the US distributor has no inventory....even on sizes they should? In this case, air freight direct from the country of origin is the best route
Companies like Enkei rarely have these issues....they maintain HUGE inventory levels. Same for Work, and other firms. Other wheel distributors....not so much
My only point is this - going the official route is always better for the consumer and the reseller/dealer. I always prefer it, because its a far easier transaction and is generally a quicker route to getting the customer the product. But you know as well as I there are some "distributors" that take so long and maintain such small inventory levels on things that they should have in stock, there is virtually no point in even using them
Companies like Enkei rarely have these issues....they maintain HUGE inventory levels. Same for Work, and other firms. Other wheel distributors....not so much
My only point is this - going the official route is always better for the consumer and the reseller/dealer. I always prefer it, because its a far easier transaction and is generally a quicker route to getting the customer the product. But you know as well as I there are some "distributors" that take so long and maintain such small inventory levels on things that they should have in stock, there is virtually no point in even using them
Last edited by Z1 Performance; 03-13-2007 at 02:23 AM.
03-13-2007, 05:58 AM
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A very appropriate place to move this sponsor/vendor laden thread, would be here...
https://my350z.com/forum/marketplace-78/
https://my350z.com/forum/marketplace-78/
03-13-2007, 07:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Z1 Performance
I hear what your saying Mark, but on the reverse, what of a case where the US distributor has no inventory....even on sizes they should? In this case, air freight direct from the country of origin is the best route
Companies like Enkei rarely have these issues....they maintain HUGE inventory levels. Same for Work, and other firms. Other wheel distributors....not so much
My only point is this - going the official route is always better for the consumer and the reseller/dealer. I always prefer it, because its a far easier transaction and is generally a quicker route to getting the customer the product. But you know as well as I there are some "distributors" that take so long and maintain such small inventory levels on things that they should have in stock, there is virtually no point in even using them
Companies like Enkei rarely have these issues....they maintain HUGE inventory levels. Same for Work, and other firms. Other wheel distributors....not so much
My only point is this - going the official route is always better for the consumer and the reseller/dealer. I always prefer it, because its a far easier transaction and is generally a quicker route to getting the customer the product. But you know as well as I there are some "distributors" that take so long and maintain such small inventory levels on things that they should have in stock, there is virtually no point in even using them
Im just going to take a stab at this and guess that the "distributor" you are refering to is Mackin Industries. If you were a direct distributor, you would know that their stocking level has increased this past year and they actually stock a lot of Z and G fitment wheels. Offering so many different colors, sizes, offsets, its virtually impossible to stock every application. I hear so many people complain about the fact that they do not stock enough wheels but I dont hear anyone complaining about Work and their inventory. You will never hear me complaining about Work and their inventory because I understand that their product is very versatile just like VOLK wheels. I bet if you call over Mackin right now, they will have inventory for the Z/G fitment wheels.
This post is with all due respect to all the vendors on here that are authorized. Z1, I hope you guys dont take my post into any offense cause that was not the intention. The fact of the matter is, theres always going to be something that is not in stock or on backorder that a customer wants right at that very moment, not just wheels.
03-13-2007, 07:59 AM
#72
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We order Enkei on a weekly, or bi weekly bassis...we sell quite a few in fact. We are not direct, but order from a direct distributor, and it's always worked out well. If Enkei does not have it in stock and they steer us to someone who does...that's all the better IMHO.
We've done lots of special orders with them, on wacky sizes, and even wheels they never carry in the US (such as the WRC Forged Tarmac wheel for the Evo). It's always arrived exactly when they said, and in the 1 instance where it did not, Enkei air'd it over, at their expense, to meet our deadline - can't ask for anything more than that. As such, we will continue to do business with them.
I know what Mackin's inventories are because I get the same inventory sheet that you do when shipments come in. While their levels might have recently increased, it's certainly not historically been the case...especially for other applications. At this point, I don't much care anymore to be honest - I've lost interest in their product.
No offense taken at all...as we've said, we've been doing this a long time...longer than most here in fact, and as such I know what it's like to have to wait for backordered stuff...it happens every day. Before I worked at Z1 I was just a customer, so I lived on both sides of the desk.
We've done lots of special orders with them, on wacky sizes, and even wheels they never carry in the US (such as the WRC Forged Tarmac wheel for the Evo). It's always arrived exactly when they said, and in the 1 instance where it did not, Enkei air'd it over, at their expense, to meet our deadline - can't ask for anything more than that. As such, we will continue to do business with them.
I know what Mackin's inventories are because I get the same inventory sheet that you do when shipments come in. While their levels might have recently increased, it's certainly not historically been the case...especially for other applications. At this point, I don't much care anymore to be honest - I've lost interest in their product.
No offense taken at all...as we've said, we've been doing this a long time...longer than most here in fact, and as such I know what it's like to have to wait for backordered stuff...it happens every day. Before I worked at Z1 I was just a customer, so I lived on both sides of the desk.
03-13-2007, 08:59 AM
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well if anyone know.. now away only car that do move wheels are Z/G , EVO, STi & S2000.. all other are slow mover, would you stock something that will sit at your shop over 4 + month?
Pretty much i think when a company stock something they mainly focus on parts that move.
Pretty much i think when a company stock something they mainly focus on parts that move.
03-13-2007, 10:46 AM
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i will keep my comments and thoughts to myself on grey market, but this thread really turns me off cause behind all the nice words and mannerisms this thread is about money and some of you guys make it about ethics and legitimacy like some of us don't know better, business in the end always boils down to money and it is an insult to try to make us believe otherwise, imo this thread subtly attacks Gruppe-S.. why else would Andy/you post about grey market being wrong, unethical, and illegitamate
i know Andy is a great guy and does not solely represent mynismo.com but i must say his/your post puts a sour taste in my mouth, i've purchased countless times from mynismo.com, was it for insanely low prices? no, we know thats not the case, it was for the customer service and reliability, were prices as low as they could be? definitely not...now explain to me why is that? don't blame the other guy for bringing a gun to the fight when you brought a fork, ethics my *** this has nothing to do with it, no one was killed, committed a crime, lied to, deceived, or hurt, only thing that is hurting is some pockets...i dunno why this gets me so worked up, personal agendas? hypocrisy? dunno
i know Andy is a great guy and does not solely represent mynismo.com but i must say his/your post puts a sour taste in my mouth, i've purchased countless times from mynismo.com, was it for insanely low prices? no, we know thats not the case, it was for the customer service and reliability, were prices as low as they could be? definitely not...now explain to me why is that? don't blame the other guy for bringing a gun to the fight when you brought a fork, ethics my *** this has nothing to do with it, no one was killed, committed a crime, lied to, deceived, or hurt, only thing that is hurting is some pockets...i dunno why this gets me so worked up, personal agendas? hypocrisy? dunno
03-13-2007, 11:13 AM
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Originally Posted by RavSpec
How about this scenario ?
1. One of the Enkei wheels bent. Need 1 replacement wheel.
2. Call grey market supplier. Non in stock. Need to wait 4 weeks for next container.
3. Alternative option, pay gret market supplier extra for air freight for wheel to ship from Japan.
4. Another month later, need another replacement. Wait another 4 weeks or pay the premium for shipping from Japan.
5. Enkei profited, but did you ?
How did supporting the official distributor change this situation ?
1. Official distributor usually are required by the manufacture to keep certain quantity of the line in stock for faster delivery. They are required to support the products from warranty, replacement, accessories, information and communication betweem the retail customer to the manufactures. Basically everything and anything about the product line must be supported by the official distributor. They are the direct representative of the manufacture.
In cases like above, you can most likely purchase a replacement wheel from the official distributor right away since they will have it in stock.
Or you can wait for your grey market vendor to contact his distributor from Japan, who may or may not be the direct distributor of the manufacture. If they are not direct, then you will have to wait till their distributor to contact the manufacture. If anyone of them miss or screw up the order, then your replacement wheel will take even longer to get to you !
2. Some vendors like to grey market products because it is more profitable. They usually don't care about the line or the long term life span of the product in the market. In most cases, if the product is not profitable, they will stop carrying it and just tell their customer sorry we don't deal with that line any more. They don't have an obligation to support the line.
3. Yes, Enkei still received the money for your wheels. The money came from their Japan distributor not from USA. What will they see if grey market sales is greater than official distributor sales in USA ? They will see that USA sales drop and it's non-profitable, ok let's cut R&D for USA. Will that hurt the USA market ? Of course it will ! Who profited ? Not the end consumer but rather the grey market vendors that are out there to make a quick bucks.
4. There are two forms of grey market sales.
A. Vendor purchase through grey market method to obtain a product for a time sensative project or dead line for the customer. They are forced to use this method after exhausting the option from purchasing through the official chanel. These type of grey marketing generally won't hurt the market.
B. Vendor purchase large amount of grey market products and bring into the market and under cut official distributor pricing. These type of aggression marketing technique will only profit the grey market vendors and will hurt the official distributors and in the long run will hurt the end user.
5. Price differences between country happen in all products. Cost are different at each country. Marketing cost, average living cost, logistic cost, warehouse, etc all have different cost from country to country. I am not familiar with 350Z pricing, but retail price for a J Spec STI is $29,000 USD while a US Spec STI retail at $34,000 USD.
Is Subaru USA trying to maximized their profit or they just figuring out how much they need to sell the car to the retail customer in order for them to continue supplying the STI to USA customers and continue to support the car in all aspect !
Just my opinion.
1. One of the Enkei wheels bent. Need 1 replacement wheel.
2. Call grey market supplier. Non in stock. Need to wait 4 weeks for next container.
3. Alternative option, pay gret market supplier extra for air freight for wheel to ship from Japan.
4. Another month later, need another replacement. Wait another 4 weeks or pay the premium for shipping from Japan.
5. Enkei profited, but did you ?
How did supporting the official distributor change this situation ?
1. Official distributor usually are required by the manufacture to keep certain quantity of the line in stock for faster delivery. They are required to support the products from warranty, replacement, accessories, information and communication betweem the retail customer to the manufactures. Basically everything and anything about the product line must be supported by the official distributor. They are the direct representative of the manufacture.
In cases like above, you can most likely purchase a replacement wheel from the official distributor right away since they will have it in stock.
Or you can wait for your grey market vendor to contact his distributor from Japan, who may or may not be the direct distributor of the manufacture. If they are not direct, then you will have to wait till their distributor to contact the manufacture. If anyone of them miss or screw up the order, then your replacement wheel will take even longer to get to you !
2. Some vendors like to grey market products because it is more profitable. They usually don't care about the line or the long term life span of the product in the market. In most cases, if the product is not profitable, they will stop carrying it and just tell their customer sorry we don't deal with that line any more. They don't have an obligation to support the line.
3. Yes, Enkei still received the money for your wheels. The money came from their Japan distributor not from USA. What will they see if grey market sales is greater than official distributor sales in USA ? They will see that USA sales drop and it's non-profitable, ok let's cut R&D for USA. Will that hurt the USA market ? Of course it will ! Who profited ? Not the end consumer but rather the grey market vendors that are out there to make a quick bucks.
4. There are two forms of grey market sales.
A. Vendor purchase through grey market method to obtain a product for a time sensative project or dead line for the customer. They are forced to use this method after exhausting the option from purchasing through the official chanel. These type of grey marketing generally won't hurt the market.
B. Vendor purchase large amount of grey market products and bring into the market and under cut official distributor pricing. These type of aggression marketing technique will only profit the grey market vendors and will hurt the official distributors and in the long run will hurt the end user.
5. Price differences between country happen in all products. Cost are different at each country. Marketing cost, average living cost, logistic cost, warehouse, etc all have different cost from country to country. I am not familiar with 350Z pricing, but retail price for a J Spec STI is $29,000 USD while a US Spec STI retail at $34,000 USD.
Is Subaru USA trying to maximized their profit or they just figuring out how much they need to sell the car to the retail customer in order for them to continue supplying the STI to USA customers and continue to support the car in all aspect !
Just my opinion.
03-13-2007, 11:31 AM
#76
Originally Posted by cubu
i will keep my comments and thoughts to myself on grey market, but this thread really turns me off cause behind all the nice words and mannerisms this thread is about money and some of you guys make it about ethics and legitimacy like some of us don't know better, business in the end always boils down to money and it is an insult to try to make us believe otherwise, imo this thread subtly attacks Gruppe-S.. why else would Andy/you post about grey market being wrong, unethical, and illegitamate
i know Andy is a great guy and does not solely represent mynismo.com but i must say his/your post puts a sour taste in my mouth, i've purchased countless times from mynismo.com, was it for insanely low prices? no, we know thats not the case, it was for the customer service and reliability, were prices as low as they could be? definitely not...now explain to me why is that? don't blame the other guy for bringing a gun to the fight when you brought a fork, ethics my *** this has nothing to do with it, no one was killed, committed a crime, lied to, deceived, or hurt, only thing that is hurting is some pockets...i dunno why this gets me so worked up, personal agendas? hypocrisy? dunno
i know Andy is a great guy and does not solely represent mynismo.com but i must say his/your post puts a sour taste in my mouth, i've purchased countless times from mynismo.com, was it for insanely low prices? no, we know thats not the case, it was for the customer service and reliability, were prices as low as they could be? definitely not...now explain to me why is that? don't blame the other guy for bringing a gun to the fight when you brought a fork, ethics my *** this has nothing to do with it, no one was killed, committed a crime, lied to, deceived, or hurt, only thing that is hurting is some pockets...i dunno why this gets me so worked up, personal agendas? hypocrisy? dunno
https://my350z.com/forum/wheels-and-tires/254495-rays-time-attack-blue-they-re-here.html
03-13-2007, 12:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Z1 Performance
your example has nothing to do with grey market...it has to do with choosing one vendor vs another
grey market is strictly a supply side issue - it is obtaining goods through means OTHER than the official channel.
grey market is strictly a supply side issue - it is obtaining goods through means OTHER than the official channel.
03-13-2007, 12:03 PM
#78
Originally Posted by 617G
If that is the case, how are you guys selling the Greddy TT for the VQ w/o IC at $4,500? How is another vendor who shall remain nameless selling the Greddy TT w/ Intercooler for $5,400? Those prices are wayyyy below market value
03-13-2007, 12:04 PM
#79
Originally Posted by 617G
If that is the case, how are you guys selling the Greddy TT for the VQ w/o IC at $4,500? How is another vendor who shall remain nameless selling the Greddy TT w/ Intercooler for $5,400? Those prices are wayyyy below market value
03-13-2007, 12:04 PM
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Originally Posted by buzzardmountain
One is with intercooler and one is without.....