Why buy the Track model?
Charter Member #53
Joined: Jun 2002
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From: ATL/Auburn U.
Originally posted by EnthuZ
Interesting discussion
or for winter driving,
Interesting discussion
or for winter driving,
Thread Starter
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From: Chicago, IL
Cheston are you trading in your Maxima?
The Enthusiast comes with a VLSD just like the track. As for rims I like SSR Comps or numerous BBS styles. I dont care if they are forged or not, I have never bent a rim and havent heard of anyone bending stock or aftermarket rims personally. Im sure it happens, but I havent seen one yet. I can get a set of BBS 19's and S0-3s for around 2,200 with my friends discount. I havent heard any prices on Big brake kits, but assume they are somewhere around 2,000. I assume that Wilwood will come out with a brake kit soon enough, which will be a lot cheaper than Brembos with similar performance. Cant you get a front big brake kit for Maximas for like 1K?
The Enthusiast comes with a VLSD just like the track. As for rims I like SSR Comps or numerous BBS styles. I dont care if they are forged or not, I have never bent a rim and havent heard of anyone bending stock or aftermarket rims personally. Im sure it happens, but I havent seen one yet. I can get a set of BBS 19's and S0-3s for around 2,200 with my friends discount. I havent heard any prices on Big brake kits, but assume they are somewhere around 2,000. I assume that Wilwood will come out with a brake kit soon enough, which will be a lot cheaper than Brembos with similar performance. Cant you get a front big brake kit for Maximas for like 1K?
Joined: May 2002
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From: Sun Diego
lets think resale then...
Image buying a 1 year old acura rsx. Would you pay more for the acura that had some big brakes you have never heard of with some wheels you never heard of and no VDC.
or pay more for the type R acura RSX WITH VDC.
We can use the same idea with a modded WRX vs WRX Sti
I think the stats mentioned that TRACK models compiled 8% of total pre-orders. This makes them more rare as well.
Sorry you didnt oder a track model, I know...its worth it
Image buying a 1 year old acura rsx. Would you pay more for the acura that had some big brakes you have never heard of with some wheels you never heard of and no VDC.
or pay more for the type R acura RSX WITH VDC.
We can use the same idea with a modded WRX vs WRX Sti
I think the stats mentioned that TRACK models compiled 8% of total pre-orders. This makes them more rare as well.
Sorry you didnt oder a track model, I know...its worth it
Thread Starter
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From: Chicago, IL
Originally posted by rpgonzalez
lets think resale then...
Image buying a 1 year old acura rsx. Would you pay more for the acura that had some big brakes you have never heard of with some wheels you never heard of and no VDC.
or pay more for the type R acura RSX WITH VDC.
We can use the same idea with a modded WRX vs WRX Sti
I think the stats mentioned that TRACK models compiled 8% of total pre-orders. This makes them more rare as well.
Sorry you didnt oder a track model, I know...its worth it
lets think resale then...
Image buying a 1 year old acura rsx. Would you pay more for the acura that had some big brakes you have never heard of with some wheels you never heard of and no VDC.
or pay more for the type R acura RSX WITH VDC.
We can use the same idea with a modded WRX vs WRX Sti
I think the stats mentioned that TRACK models compiled 8% of total pre-orders. This makes them more rare as well.
Sorry you didnt oder a track model, I know...its worth it
Guest
Posts: n/a
Originally posted by rpgonzalez
lets think resale then...
Image buying a 1 year old acura rsx. Would you pay more for the acura that had some big brakes you have never heard of with some wheels you never heard of and no VDC.
or pay more for the type R acura RSX WITH VDC.
We can use the same idea with a modded WRX vs WRX Sti
I think the stats mentioned that TRACK models compiled 8% of total pre-orders. This makes them more rare as well.
Sorry you didnt oder a track model, I know...its worth it
lets think resale then...
Image buying a 1 year old acura rsx. Would you pay more for the acura that had some big brakes you have never heard of with some wheels you never heard of and no VDC.
or pay more for the type R acura RSX WITH VDC.
We can use the same idea with a modded WRX vs WRX Sti
I think the stats mentioned that TRACK models compiled 8% of total pre-orders. This makes them more rare as well.
Sorry you didnt oder a track model, I know...its worth it
Your modded STI ideas has holes as well. If the mods are joe blow than worry, but if the car was like my brothers, with a TIEN coilover kit, Prodrive P-7's, Cobb Tuning Brakes (actually built by StopTech) and Cobb Tuning Turbo kit than the STi is a silly overpriced gold rimmed dog.
I thought I was going to buy the track until I looked into it a bit further. I will buy the Touring pkg now, as I want leather and the big Bose kit. I will add the Aero pkg option and my own brake kit which is easy enough to return to stock for resale and will have very little effect on warranty. The OEM wheels will be used for the street with S0-3's, and two sets of wheels will be purchased: 17" OZ superleggera shod with winter rubber and 17" SSR Comps shod with R compound for track days. I also get heated seats, power seats and other simple pleasures I've grown accustomed to in my Audi. Mostly though, I want the leather because my dog will destroy the cloth.
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Joined: May 2002
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From: Austin, TX
Max-
I guess you should have been a little more specific. _YOU_ can purchase items that would have what you believe similar or better performance. In your original post you stated, “The way I see it...It isn’t worth the near 6k difference” That has been covered several times in this post. The cost of upgrading an Enthusiast model to equal level equipment (i.e. same manufacturers) is well beyond the cost of the difference.
I am a little interested in why you assume your combo will outperform a Track model on the racetrack.
Brakes-
You reference the Stoptech kits, so I will use that for the comparison. You state you only need a front brake upgrade. My first question is wouldn’t the stock ones tend to be more likely to have fade after a number of hot laps. Even if they are only 30% of the braking as you say, that is still 30% less braking force. That in turn is slower lap times. So, for equal performance you would need to go with a 4 wheel kit, which would most likely run in the $4000+ range. Don’t forget your master cylinder. That will probably need to be upgraded for a 4 wheel kit. (Unless the Enthusiast and Track use the same master cylinder and it is up to the challenge) I am not sure of the cost of this upgrade. You mention the ST kit has a greater diameter and this will give better braking performance. Well, if the stock Brembos can lock up the wheels, increasing the diameter of the rotor will not necessarily create greater braking performance. As for the brake pads, I can guarantee some of the major brake pad manufacturers, not to mention NISMO, will make pads for the Track brakes. Therefore, I don’t see that as an added benefit for the Stoptech kit. Then there is the issue that you have to wait for Stoptech or another manufacturer to put together a kit.
Wheels-
Well, you have changed between two set of wheels in your discussion. I will address the SSR’s first. You didn’t specify which SSRs, so I will assume you meant the Competitions. They are actually pretty close in weight to the Ray’s (assuming 16lbs, same as TE37s.) The Competitions are actually quasi-Forged. So they are pretty strong. To order them in 18’s with S03, one would spend roughly $2500 +tax or shipping. You obviously have some kinda connection, but I am not going to take that into account for the purpose of discussing this in a more general sense.
The other set you referred to is the 19 BBS CH. While these wheels are pretty advance technology, in a 19” rim it will definitely be a good deal heavier than the stock Ray’s. Not to mention the greater diameter adversely affecting the gearing, if even by a small amount. This setup will most definitely not perform as well as the stock Ray’s set, at least not according to physics. In addition, this setup would run somewhere approximately $650 a corner (with tire.)
Tires-
This subject has been debated greatly. Some still maintain that this is a very sticky tire. Another issue that hasn’t been determined is if the RE040 on the Z is the same as the other RE040’s that have been sold. This is not unheard of with OEM tires. The S2000 Potenza S-02s are in no way the same as the non-OEM version. Even the sizes are not standard (the 205/55 fronts are more like 195/55) I am not saying this is the case with the Z, we just haven’t investigated this yet.
In one of your posts you mention, better grip from your bigger tires. Do you mean better traction because they are wider? All other things being equal, increasing the width of a tire does not increase the contact patch; it makes the contact patch wider and shorter. On your 19’s, there will be a greater contact patch.
Aero-
You make some comments that you won’t be going 130mph so you don’t need it. Well, I thought you were going to the track. I would hope on some tracks the Z will make it to 130mph. Second, Nissan never specified at what speed the aero package produces 0 lift. Without this, we can not truly state whether or not the aero package will be beneficial at the track. My own guess is that it will be, at least at tracks with fairly long straights.
I think you will find that the above points illustrates that for the general public (and probably you too, even with your discount) the cost differential between the Enthusiast and the Track is more than worth it. Note: This doesn’t even bring into question the warranty differences. I hope this helps you in your dilemma
JD
I guess you should have been a little more specific. _YOU_ can purchase items that would have what you believe similar or better performance. In your original post you stated, “The way I see it...It isn’t worth the near 6k difference” That has been covered several times in this post. The cost of upgrading an Enthusiast model to equal level equipment (i.e. same manufacturers) is well beyond the cost of the difference.
I am a little interested in why you assume your combo will outperform a Track model on the racetrack.
Brakes-
You reference the Stoptech kits, so I will use that for the comparison. You state you only need a front brake upgrade. My first question is wouldn’t the stock ones tend to be more likely to have fade after a number of hot laps. Even if they are only 30% of the braking as you say, that is still 30% less braking force. That in turn is slower lap times. So, for equal performance you would need to go with a 4 wheel kit, which would most likely run in the $4000+ range. Don’t forget your master cylinder. That will probably need to be upgraded for a 4 wheel kit. (Unless the Enthusiast and Track use the same master cylinder and it is up to the challenge) I am not sure of the cost of this upgrade. You mention the ST kit has a greater diameter and this will give better braking performance. Well, if the stock Brembos can lock up the wheels, increasing the diameter of the rotor will not necessarily create greater braking performance. As for the brake pads, I can guarantee some of the major brake pad manufacturers, not to mention NISMO, will make pads for the Track brakes. Therefore, I don’t see that as an added benefit for the Stoptech kit. Then there is the issue that you have to wait for Stoptech or another manufacturer to put together a kit.
Wheels-
Well, you have changed between two set of wheels in your discussion. I will address the SSR’s first. You didn’t specify which SSRs, so I will assume you meant the Competitions. They are actually pretty close in weight to the Ray’s (assuming 16lbs, same as TE37s.) The Competitions are actually quasi-Forged. So they are pretty strong. To order them in 18’s with S03, one would spend roughly $2500 +tax or shipping. You obviously have some kinda connection, but I am not going to take that into account for the purpose of discussing this in a more general sense.
The other set you referred to is the 19 BBS CH. While these wheels are pretty advance technology, in a 19” rim it will definitely be a good deal heavier than the stock Ray’s. Not to mention the greater diameter adversely affecting the gearing, if even by a small amount. This setup will most definitely not perform as well as the stock Ray’s set, at least not according to physics. In addition, this setup would run somewhere approximately $650 a corner (with tire.)
Tires-
This subject has been debated greatly. Some still maintain that this is a very sticky tire. Another issue that hasn’t been determined is if the RE040 on the Z is the same as the other RE040’s that have been sold. This is not unheard of with OEM tires. The S2000 Potenza S-02s are in no way the same as the non-OEM version. Even the sizes are not standard (the 205/55 fronts are more like 195/55) I am not saying this is the case with the Z, we just haven’t investigated this yet.
In one of your posts you mention, better grip from your bigger tires. Do you mean better traction because they are wider? All other things being equal, increasing the width of a tire does not increase the contact patch; it makes the contact patch wider and shorter. On your 19’s, there will be a greater contact patch.
Aero-
You make some comments that you won’t be going 130mph so you don’t need it. Well, I thought you were going to the track. I would hope on some tracks the Z will make it to 130mph. Second, Nissan never specified at what speed the aero package produces 0 lift. Without this, we can not truly state whether or not the aero package will be beneficial at the track. My own guess is that it will be, at least at tracks with fairly long straights.
I think you will find that the above points illustrates that for the general public (and probably you too, even with your discount) the cost differential between the Enthusiast and the Track is more than worth it. Note: This doesn’t even bring into question the warranty differences. I hope this helps you in your dilemma
JD
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From: Austin, TX
articfury,
The S2000's OEM S02's are available in the aftermarket...they differ from the S02 Pole Positions, but leave off the "PP" and they're the same, complete w/ a rear 225 that is really a 245+.
VERY sticky tires, but rear ones are gone after 6500 miles.
IMO, the Track model is the way to go if you want that stuff, even if it costs a little more:
- factory warranty on everything
- everything is integrated, vs. an aftermarket special (how many times do you see aftermarket wheels hurt performance, wrong offset, etc.)
- better resale...the argument about installing and removing parts fails to consider the labor cost, even if it's the value of the owner's time
- Brembo and Ray's are top-notch names w/ worldwide respect in their fields...I'm not so sure you could say the same for StopTech and many other wheel builders.
If I was to trade in my S2000 (& no, I don't plan to do so anytime soon), I'd go for the Track!
The S2000's OEM S02's are available in the aftermarket...they differ from the S02 Pole Positions, but leave off the "PP" and they're the same, complete w/ a rear 225 that is really a 245+.
VERY sticky tires, but rear ones are gone after 6500 miles.
IMO, the Track model is the way to go if you want that stuff, even if it costs a little more:
- factory warranty on everything
- everything is integrated, vs. an aftermarket special (how many times do you see aftermarket wheels hurt performance, wrong offset, etc.)
- better resale...the argument about installing and removing parts fails to consider the labor cost, even if it's the value of the owner's time
- Brembo and Ray's are top-notch names w/ worldwide respect in their fields...I'm not so sure you could say the same for StopTech and many other wheel builders.
If I was to trade in my S2000 (& no, I don't plan to do so anytime soon), I'd go for the Track!
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From: Smackahoe Blvd
Originally posted by ordare
I thought I was going to buy the track until I looked into it a bit further. I will buy the Touring pkg now, as I want leather and the big Bose kit.
I thought I was going to buy the track until I looked into it a bit further. I will buy the Touring pkg now, as I want leather and the big Bose kit.
Aren't you the same guy that attacked this forum on zcar.com?
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From: Sun Diego
when I said big brakes and wheels that you havent heard of, I am refering to the names comparable to the "normal" person, such as you would be selling your car to when done.
Stoptech and what rims? Im sorry, even as a lifelong car lover, I am unaware of these brands. They sound generic. (STOP...before you go acting superior, realize that this argument is for the benefit of the common populace) For the common person, they trust the renowned "track" edition instead....
Taking off parts and selling on ebay? Why are we doing this?What a gambe I say....How do you know that the parts + the enthusiast model will yield the same return as the track model? And if they do, whats the point of the hassle? And if you come out ahead...STILL A HASSLE. The rubber on you stored enthus. rims will be old so you may have to replace any way. The old enthus. brakes sitting on the shelf for 5 years will dry out. GREAT...now you have to rebuild...Its a gamble that has no potential high yield return. When I gamble, I expect to some day make a million dollars!
Stoptech and what rims? Im sorry, even as a lifelong car lover, I am unaware of these brands. They sound generic. (STOP...before you go acting superior, realize that this argument is for the benefit of the common populace) For the common person, they trust the renowned "track" edition instead....
Taking off parts and selling on ebay? Why are we doing this?What a gambe I say....How do you know that the parts + the enthusiast model will yield the same return as the track model? And if they do, whats the point of the hassle? And if you come out ahead...STILL A HASSLE. The rubber on you stored enthus. rims will be old so you may have to replace any way. The old enthus. brakes sitting on the shelf for 5 years will dry out. GREAT...now you have to rebuild...Its a gamble that has no potential high yield return. When I gamble, I expect to some day make a million dollars!
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From: maryland
there is more than one way to skin a cat. If you have connections as you say it may be cheaper for you, but most people are not getting stuff for 1/2 price. Also I don't plan on spending my time changing brakes ec. I do not enjoy working on cars.
I have no problem with you saying you can get lesser name components cheaper. We are paying a little extra for brand name recognition. A rolex may keep the same time as a casio, but people do pay more for a name brand.
But I can't see that your lesser name parts will "outperform" the brembos and rays. They did not get to be big names for nothing.
Bottom line if you want to mod the right way, the first thing to do is upgrade the wheels and brakes. The Track has done this for us with top names. Now we can concentrate on some power mods.
Also the spoiler is very tastful and nicely integrated. I do not take zero lift lightly. Early audi tt's have been known to go airborne at high speed, I would prefer not to find out the hard way what lift feels like.
I have no problem with you saying you can get lesser name components cheaper. We are paying a little extra for brand name recognition. A rolex may keep the same time as a casio, but people do pay more for a name brand.
But I can't see that your lesser name parts will "outperform" the brembos and rays. They did not get to be big names for nothing.
Bottom line if you want to mod the right way, the first thing to do is upgrade the wheels and brakes. The Track has done this for us with top names. Now we can concentrate on some power mods.
Also the spoiler is very tastful and nicely integrated. I do not take zero lift lightly. Early audi tt's have been known to go airborne at high speed, I would prefer not to find out the hard way what lift feels like.
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From: Honolulu
I can't imagine people buy used car parts on Ebay. Well, actually, I'm sure they do, people buy and sell everything there, BUT, I still would find it very disturbing. Imagine this transaction...."Stoptech brakes, used, were previously on 350Z used extensively on track, am now selling. Starting bid, $XXX." Somehow, the idea of used brakes or tires just doesn't sound appealing. Maybe it's just me.
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From: Richmond, VA
Re: Isn't it obvious
Originally posted by Bishop_Tx
http://www.nissandriven.com/vehicles...s/1,9439,23261||,00.html?displayAll#topOfPage
Track with ALL the options including NAV...
And including - Touring leather package, Touring Bose Sound System, Etch, Security system with wheel bolts, Courtesy net, Z Car Cover, auto dimming mirrors and Lifetime Window tint.
It's a collector's version for sure...made available through special order "Official Nissan Z Car Kits" installed by the dealer. I'll be taking pics as soon as she's in.
http://www.nissandriven.com/vehicles...s/1,9439,23261||,00.html?displayAll#topOfPage
Track with ALL the options including NAV...
And including - Touring leather package, Touring Bose Sound System, Etch, Security system with wheel bolts, Courtesy net, Z Car Cover, auto dimming mirrors and Lifetime Window tint.
It's a collector's version for sure...made available through special order "Official Nissan Z Car Kits" installed by the dealer. I'll be taking pics as soon as she's in.
No. the maxima will be my daily driver from here to work. most likely i'll finish it off. with new coilovers. finally getting my intercooler installed, and most likely an LSD.
the wilwoods are decent. but the price i quoted were for the Gran Turismo Brembo kit. i just wanted to keep them the same brand for comparison reasons. yea i can make my own kit right now for the maxima if only my freakin Mechie friend would finish up my CAD drawings.
as for rims. yea SSR competitions would probably be my next choice following some type of LE37K or T rims from Rays.
--cheston
the wilwoods are decent. but the price i quoted were for the Gran Turismo Brembo kit. i just wanted to keep them the same brand for comparison reasons. yea i can make my own kit right now for the maxima if only my freakin Mechie friend would finish up my CAD drawings.
as for rims. yea SSR competitions would probably be my next choice following some type of LE37K or T rims from Rays.
--cheston
Originally posted by max2000jp
Cheston are you trading in your Maxima?
The Enthusiast comes with a VLSD just like the track. As for rims I like SSR Comps or numerous BBS styles. I dont care if they are forged or not, I have never bent a rim and havent heard of anyone bending stock or aftermarket rims personally. Im sure it happens, but I havent seen one yet. I can get a set of BBS 19's and S0-3s for around 2,200 with my friends discount. I havent heard any prices on Big brake kits, but assume they are somewhere around 2,000. I assume that Wilwood will come out with a brake kit soon enough, which will be a lot cheaper than Brembos with similar performance. Cant you get a front big brake kit for Maximas for like 1K?
Cheston are you trading in your Maxima?
The Enthusiast comes with a VLSD just like the track. As for rims I like SSR Comps or numerous BBS styles. I dont care if they are forged or not, I have never bent a rim and havent heard of anyone bending stock or aftermarket rims personally. Im sure it happens, but I havent seen one yet. I can get a set of BBS 19's and S0-3s for around 2,200 with my friends discount. I havent heard any prices on Big brake kits, but assume they are somewhere around 2,000. I assume that Wilwood will come out with a brake kit soon enough, which will be a lot cheaper than Brembos with similar performance. Cant you get a front big brake kit for Maximas for like 1K?
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Posts: n/a
I personally got the Track for these reasons. And don’t knock any of you for yours because a Z is a Z.
1. Warrantied performance parts (with the parts I was going to put on the car anyway, that was a huge part up my decision)
2. The value of the car in this trim will hold very well (even though I won’t sell her)
3. Looks awesome from the factory
4. Only interested in the performance of the car
You will save money if you don’t get the track yes, but you cant take your aftermarket parts to the Nissan dealership to get maintenance. It’s all a matter of preference. And mine is to be bad right out of the box baby.
1. Warrantied performance parts (with the parts I was going to put on the car anyway, that was a huge part up my decision)
2. The value of the car in this trim will hold very well (even though I won’t sell her)
3. Looks awesome from the factory
4. Only interested in the performance of the car
You will save money if you don’t get the track yes, but you cant take your aftermarket parts to the Nissan dealership to get maintenance. It’s all a matter of preference. And mine is to be bad right out of the box baby.
do you know nissan's take if you take the Track edition to a road course.. will they really warrant their stuff.
i mean, yea its warranty for driving, but sometimes theres' that stupid disclaimer they throw in "no racing" or something like that..
i mean, yea its warranty for driving, but sometimes theres' that stupid disclaimer they throw in "no racing" or something like that..
Originally posted by Zinjn
I personally got the Track for these reasons. And don’t knock any of you for yours because a Z is a Z.
1. Warrantied performance parts (with the parts I was going to put on the car anyway, that was a huge part up my decision)
2. The value of the car in this trim will hold very well (even though I won’t sell her)
3. Looks awesome from the factory
4. Only interested in the performance of the car
You will save money if you don’t get the track yes, but you cant take your aftermarket parts to the Nissan dealership to get maintenance. It’s all a matter of preference. And mine is to be bad right out of the box baby.
I personally got the Track for these reasons. And don’t knock any of you for yours because a Z is a Z.
1. Warrantied performance parts (with the parts I was going to put on the car anyway, that was a huge part up my decision)
2. The value of the car in this trim will hold very well (even though I won’t sell her)
3. Looks awesome from the factory
4. Only interested in the performance of the car
You will save money if you don’t get the track yes, but you cant take your aftermarket parts to the Nissan dealership to get maintenance. It’s all a matter of preference. And mine is to be bad right out of the box baby.
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From: Canada
I'm a big track fan.
when I got my prelude I decided not to go with the OEM body kit cuz I was thinkin' that I could get a cooler one for cheaper bla bla bla... the thing I found was that once I assumed the loan payments and the gas payments... buying the aero kit came second to a lot of things... like eating and rent (booze).
So now that this is my second go round in the new car situation, I'm thinking the track is the way to go.
BUT
I do love my leather and I'm thinking that even though its not an opiton (burnt orange in the daytona blue)
Is there any good reason that you couldn't order a set of OEM power leather seats from Nissan and have them installed in your track?
Where there is a will (and lots of money) there is a way right?
you keep your EOM look, and you get the best of both worlds, plus one of the only datona tracks with burnt orange leather.
input?
d
when I got my prelude I decided not to go with the OEM body kit cuz I was thinkin' that I could get a cooler one for cheaper bla bla bla... the thing I found was that once I assumed the loan payments and the gas payments... buying the aero kit came second to a lot of things... like eating and rent (booze).
So now that this is my second go round in the new car situation, I'm thinking the track is the way to go.
BUT
I do love my leather and I'm thinking that even though its not an opiton (burnt orange in the daytona blue)
Is there any good reason that you couldn't order a set of OEM power leather seats from Nissan and have them installed in your track?
Where there is a will (and lots of money) there is a way right?
you keep your EOM look, and you get the best of both worlds, plus one of the only datona tracks with burnt orange leather.
input?
d