Why buy the Track model?
Charter Member #55
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From: Austin, TX
Morgan-
OEM stands for Original Equipment Manufacturer.
Chris S-
I guess I missed the part about the pole position being the difference in the name. I knew they were available to buy, but I thought their model names were the same as other S02s. My buddy, one of the other Spa Yellows here in town, had mentioned this before, but I guess I missed the Pole Position distinction. Thanks.
JD
OEM stands for Original Equipment Manufacturer.
Chris S-
I guess I missed the part about the pole position being the difference in the name. I knew they were available to buy, but I thought their model names were the same as other S02s. My buddy, one of the other Spa Yellows here in town, had mentioned this before, but I guess I missed the Pole Position distinction. Thanks.
JD
Last edited by articfury; Aug 29, 2002 at 11:04 AM.
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From: Chicago, IL
Honestly, I dont care too much about the warranty factor b/c tires and rims arent covered under warranty. If you wear out your tires in 500 miles, they arent going to cover them. Same goes for the brake pads and rotors. Nissan will not void your bumper to bumper warranty for adding aftermarket rims and brakes. I have taken my fully modded Maxima into my dealer and they have never said much about the mods. The guys actually ask me questions about various things I have done.
As for resale, I can still sell my Enthusiast Z as stock. I am not going to throw away any of the stock parts. When it comes time to sell I will spend a few hours doing something I enjoy....tinkering with cars. The aftermarket parts can easily be sold locally. I have bought a few used parts for my Maxima from local owners. I know that I will not get full price for these parts, but I will get a decent amount back.
As for resale, I can still sell my Enthusiast Z as stock. I am not going to throw away any of the stock parts. When it comes time to sell I will spend a few hours doing something I enjoy....tinkering with cars. The aftermarket parts can easily be sold locally. I have bought a few used parts for my Maxima from local owners. I know that I will not get full price for these parts, but I will get a decent amount back.
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Originally posted by articfury
Max-
I am a little interested in why you assume your combo will outperform a Track model on the racetrack.
Brakes-
You reference the Stoptech kits, so I will use that for the comparison. You state you only need a front brake upgrade. My first question is wouldn’t the stock ones tend to be more likely to have fade after a number of hot laps. Even if they are only 30% of the braking as you say, that is still 30% less braking force. That in turn is slower lap times. So, for equal performance you would need to go with a 4 wheel kit, which would most likely run in the $4000+ range. Don’t forget your master cylinder. That will probably need to be upgraded for a 4 wheel kit. (Unless the Enthusiast and Track use the same master cylinder and it is up to the challenge) I am not sure of the cost of this upgrade. You mention the ST kit has a greater diameter and this will give better braking performance. Well, if the stock Brembos can lock up the wheels, increasing the diameter of the rotor will not necessarily create greater braking performance. As for the brake pads, I can guarantee some of the major brake pad manufacturers, not to mention NISMO, will make pads for the Track brakes. Therefore, I don’t see that as an added benefit for the Stoptech kit. Then there is the issue that you have to wait for Stoptech or another manufacturer to put together a kit.
Wheels-
Well, you have changed between two set of wheels in your discussion. I will address the SSR’s first. You didn’t specify which SSRs, so I will assume you meant the Competitions. They are actually pretty close in weight to the Ray’s (assuming 16lbs, same as TE37s.) The Competitions are actually quasi-Forged. So they are pretty strong. To order them in 18’s with S03, one would spend roughly $2500 +tax or shipping. You obviously have some kinda connection, but I am not going to take that into account for the purpose of discussing this in a more general sense.
The other set you referred to is the 19 BBS CH. While these wheels are pretty advance technology, in a 19” rim it will definitely be a good deal heavier than the stock Ray’s. Not to mention the greater diameter adversely affecting the gearing, if even by a small amount. This setup will most definitely not perform as well as the stock Ray’s set, at least not according to physics. In addition, this setup would run somewhere approximately $650 a corner (with tire.)
Tires-
This subject has been debated greatly. Some still maintain that this is a very sticky tire. Another issue that hasn’t been determined is if the RE040 on the Z is the same as the other RE040’s that have been sold. This is not unheard of with OEM tires. The S2000 Potenza S-02s are in no way the same as the non-OEM version. Even the sizes are not standard (the 205/55 fronts are more like 195/55) I am not saying this is the case with the Z, we just haven’t investigated this yet.
In one of your posts you mention, better grip from your bigger tires. Do you mean better traction because they are wider? All other things being equal, increasing the width of a tire does not increase the contact patch; it makes the contact patch wider and shorter. On your 19’s, there will be a greater contact patch.
Aero-
You make some comments that you won’t be going 130mph so you don’t need it. Well, I thought you were going to the track. I would hope on some tracks the Z will make it to 130mph. Second, Nissan never specified at what speed the aero package produces 0 lift. Without this, we can not truly state whether or not the aero package will be beneficial at the track. My own guess is that it will be, at least at tracks with fairly long straights.
I think you will find that the above points illustrates that for the general public (and probably you too, even with your discount) the cost differential between the Enthusiast and the Track is more than worth it. Note: This doesn’t even bring into question the warranty differences. I hope this helps you in your dilemma
JD
Max-
I am a little interested in why you assume your combo will outperform a Track model on the racetrack.
Brakes-
You reference the Stoptech kits, so I will use that for the comparison. You state you only need a front brake upgrade. My first question is wouldn’t the stock ones tend to be more likely to have fade after a number of hot laps. Even if they are only 30% of the braking as you say, that is still 30% less braking force. That in turn is slower lap times. So, for equal performance you would need to go with a 4 wheel kit, which would most likely run in the $4000+ range. Don’t forget your master cylinder. That will probably need to be upgraded for a 4 wheel kit. (Unless the Enthusiast and Track use the same master cylinder and it is up to the challenge) I am not sure of the cost of this upgrade. You mention the ST kit has a greater diameter and this will give better braking performance. Well, if the stock Brembos can lock up the wheels, increasing the diameter of the rotor will not necessarily create greater braking performance. As for the brake pads, I can guarantee some of the major brake pad manufacturers, not to mention NISMO, will make pads for the Track brakes. Therefore, I don’t see that as an added benefit for the Stoptech kit. Then there is the issue that you have to wait for Stoptech or another manufacturer to put together a kit.
Wheels-
Well, you have changed between two set of wheels in your discussion. I will address the SSR’s first. You didn’t specify which SSRs, so I will assume you meant the Competitions. They are actually pretty close in weight to the Ray’s (assuming 16lbs, same as TE37s.) The Competitions are actually quasi-Forged. So they are pretty strong. To order them in 18’s with S03, one would spend roughly $2500 +tax or shipping. You obviously have some kinda connection, but I am not going to take that into account for the purpose of discussing this in a more general sense.
The other set you referred to is the 19 BBS CH. While these wheels are pretty advance technology, in a 19” rim it will definitely be a good deal heavier than the stock Ray’s. Not to mention the greater diameter adversely affecting the gearing, if even by a small amount. This setup will most definitely not perform as well as the stock Ray’s set, at least not according to physics. In addition, this setup would run somewhere approximately $650 a corner (with tire.)
Tires-
This subject has been debated greatly. Some still maintain that this is a very sticky tire. Another issue that hasn’t been determined is if the RE040 on the Z is the same as the other RE040’s that have been sold. This is not unheard of with OEM tires. The S2000 Potenza S-02s are in no way the same as the non-OEM version. Even the sizes are not standard (the 205/55 fronts are more like 195/55) I am not saying this is the case with the Z, we just haven’t investigated this yet.
In one of your posts you mention, better grip from your bigger tires. Do you mean better traction because they are wider? All other things being equal, increasing the width of a tire does not increase the contact patch; it makes the contact patch wider and shorter. On your 19’s, there will be a greater contact patch.
Aero-
You make some comments that you won’t be going 130mph so you don’t need it. Well, I thought you were going to the track. I would hope on some tracks the Z will make it to 130mph. Second, Nissan never specified at what speed the aero package produces 0 lift. Without this, we can not truly state whether or not the aero package will be beneficial at the track. My own guess is that it will be, at least at tracks with fairly long straights.
I think you will find that the above points illustrates that for the general public (and probably you too, even with your discount) the cost differential between the Enthusiast and the Track is more than worth it. Note: This doesn’t even bring into question the warranty differences. I hope this helps you in your dilemma
JD
The StopTech kit from what I got out of the SCC article is a Skyline brake kit that is already out, so there is no wait on that. The rear stock Enthusiast brakes should be fine IMO because the Fronts are the ones that fade on the track and do most of the work.
You as bring up a good point with tires. Yes the S0-3s or T1-S's that I would plan on buying would have a greater contact patch, but also the rubber compound on these tires will grip the pavement much better. Better tire grip=better stopping distances.
The track that I go to you dont need the aero package because you arent going that fast in the straights. My friends E46 M3 got no where near 130 on the straights.
Last edited by max2000jp; Aug 29, 2002 at 01:02 PM.
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there is the original and then there is the "it's as good"
If the statistics are correct, and less than 4% of the 7000 pre-release order cars are Track models, then I vote for the "original". After these things swarm all over North America it will offer a little bit of exclusivity, if not-re-sale.
The car is equipped the way it is because it's Nissan's opinion of an upgraded car for the Track.
This kind of harkens back to buying a regular 911 and bolting on a Turbo. Whether it goes faster or not; it's not a Turbo. It just a 911 with some after market equipment.
When I finally get my hands on the Track model I'll enjoy the exclusivity and knowledge, that from the Factory this is the top end.
The car is equipped the way it is because it's Nissan's opinion of an upgraded car for the Track.
This kind of harkens back to buying a regular 911 and bolting on a Turbo. Whether it goes faster or not; it's not a Turbo. It just a 911 with some after market equipment.
When I finally get my hands on the Track model I'll enjoy the exclusivity and knowledge, that from the Factory this is the top end.
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I would rather have 17" wheels for more torque to the ground, but the 18"s are very nice. You can get better fitment of tires for 17s for the track than with 18s too.
I like the brembo brakes b/c you don't have to remove the wheel to bleed them, something I hate having to do with my S.
I like the brembo brakes b/c you don't have to remove the wheel to bleed them, something I hate having to do with my S.
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From: Philadelphia
17's wont affect the amount of power to the ground. The 18" Ray's are lighter, alot, and that reduces unsprung weight which is the performance aspect which wheels really are all about.
The only advantage to 17's is more sidewall for those of you in the ice belt and pothole land, and probably cheaper tires
The only advantage to 17's is more sidewall for those of you in the ice belt and pothole land, and probably cheaper tires
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Originally posted by raceboy
You rag on people for buying the Track and yet you are getting a touring for the "Big Bose Kit?" (whatever that is) Now that is what I call throwing away some money!! By your logic, why not get an Entusiast for $28,789, add leather for $1200 and spend $2000 on the stereo. Total, about $32,000, or about $1700 less than the Toring with it's crappy stereo!!
Aren't you the same guy that attacked this forum on zcar.com?
You rag on people for buying the Track and yet you are getting a touring for the "Big Bose Kit?" (whatever that is) Now that is what I call throwing away some money!! By your logic, why not get an Entusiast for $28,789, add leather for $1200 and spend $2000 on the stereo. Total, about $32,000, or about $1700 less than the Toring with it's crappy stereo!!
Aren't you the same guy that attacked this forum on zcar.com?
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From: Austin, TX
max-
You only have a larger contact patch if you go with the 19's. Wider tires do not necessarily equal bigger contact patch. On the downside the 19's would slow acceleration. On a slow, tight track that would be a major disadvantage. On a high speed track where you could use the taller gearing to increase top speed it would be a good thing. I agree with you that a better tire compound would decrease braking distance. But that is not excluded from being used on a Track model after the first set of tires are used up (Knowing me, that will be soon)
Are you talking about a Skyline V35 or R34? The V35 kit would most likely fit. I don't know about an R34 kit. I would think that it would need some work to fit it on a Z. As for the rear brake being up to the challenge, that is something only time will tell.
Be sure to chronicle your upgrades and keep us posted. I love seeing modification projects.
JD
Ordare-
Leather will be a dealer installed option for all non-Touring models.
You only have a larger contact patch if you go with the 19's. Wider tires do not necessarily equal bigger contact patch. On the downside the 19's would slow acceleration. On a slow, tight track that would be a major disadvantage. On a high speed track where you could use the taller gearing to increase top speed it would be a good thing. I agree with you that a better tire compound would decrease braking distance. But that is not excluded from being used on a Track model after the first set of tires are used up (Knowing me, that will be soon
)Are you talking about a Skyline V35 or R34? The V35 kit would most likely fit. I don't know about an R34 kit. I would think that it would need some work to fit it on a Z. As for the rear brake being up to the challenge, that is something only time will tell.
Be sure to chronicle your upgrades and keep us posted. I love seeing modification projects.
JD
Ordare-
Leather will be a dealer installed option for all non-Touring models.
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From: hometown usa
Originally posted by baven
17's wont affect the amount of power to the ground. The 18" Ray's are lighter, alot, and that reduces unsprung weight which is the performance aspect which wheels really are all about.
The only advantage to 17's is more sidewall for those of you in the ice belt and pothole land, and probably cheaper tires
17's wont affect the amount of power to the ground. The 18" Ray's are lighter, alot, and that reduces unsprung weight which is the performance aspect which wheels really are all about.
The only advantage to 17's is more sidewall for those of you in the ice belt and pothole land, and probably cheaper tires
I didn't mean go with the 17" stock rims 
Keep those for the street and put hoosiers on a nice set of volks. 
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From: Northern Virginia
Re: there is the original and then there is the "it's as good"
Originally posted by X Porsche Guy
If the statistics are correct, and less than 4% of the 7000 pre-release order cars are Track models, then I vote for the "original". After these things swarm all over North America it will offer a little bit of exclusivity, if not-re-sale.
The car is equipped the way it is because it's Nissan's opinion of an upgraded car for the Track.
This kind of harkens back to buying a regular 911 and bolting on a Turbo. Whether it goes faster or not; it's not a Turbo. It just a 911 with some after market equipment.
If the statistics are correct, and less than 4% of the 7000 pre-release order cars are Track models, then I vote for the "original". After these things swarm all over North America it will offer a little bit of exclusivity, if not-re-sale.
The car is equipped the way it is because it's Nissan's opinion of an upgraded car for the Track.
This kind of harkens back to buying a regular 911 and bolting on a Turbo. Whether it goes faster or not; it's not a Turbo. It just a 911 with some after market equipment.
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From: bay area, ca
Originally posted by max2000jp
I can afford a track model. I know the aftermarket and realize that the track isnt that great of a deal. Great comparison between the base WRX and STI btw. They are 2 totally different cars. If your going to try and flame me, do some research
The Brake kit I was refering to has larger diameter rotors and can be fitted with various pads (porterfield, hawk, etc.). Yes the package I mention is for the front only, but rears arent necessary.
The track rims are nice, but the tires arent anything special. Like I said S0-3s outperform the 040's. I can get pretty much any rim from tirerack.com and they will function the same as the Rays. There are plenty of aftermarket companies that make lightweight rims. You are just a sucker for Nissan marketing by thinking that "Rays" are amazing.
As for a aero package adding downforce, great. I will not be traveling at 130+, so why do I need it. Its basically a cosmetic eature for many. C&D did a test a couple years back and found many of the stock spoilers didnt accomplish much IIRC.
VDC is not needed if you know how to drive a RWD car. Like I said before, at the track you switch VDC off unless you cannot drive.
The track model is a great handler out of the box, but the way I see it I can make a better handling car for less money by buying an enthsusiast and doing a few mods. BTW.....if I was to pay the money for the Track I wouldnt be looking at a Z, but rather a C5 Manual.
I can afford a track model. I know the aftermarket and realize that the track isnt that great of a deal. Great comparison between the base WRX and STI btw. They are 2 totally different cars. If your going to try and flame me, do some research
The Brake kit I was refering to has larger diameter rotors and can be fitted with various pads (porterfield, hawk, etc.). Yes the package I mention is for the front only, but rears arent necessary.
The track rims are nice, but the tires arent anything special. Like I said S0-3s outperform the 040's. I can get pretty much any rim from tirerack.com and they will function the same as the Rays. There are plenty of aftermarket companies that make lightweight rims. You are just a sucker for Nissan marketing by thinking that "Rays" are amazing.
As for a aero package adding downforce, great. I will not be traveling at 130+, so why do I need it. Its basically a cosmetic eature for many. C&D did a test a couple years back and found many of the stock spoilers didnt accomplish much IIRC.
VDC is not needed if you know how to drive a RWD car. Like I said before, at the track you switch VDC off unless you cannot drive.
The track model is a great handler out of the box, but the way I see it I can make a better handling car for less money by buying an enthsusiast and doing a few mods. BTW.....if I was to pay the money for the Track I wouldnt be looking at a Z, but rather a C5 Manual.
right on!
One more thing, anybody that thinks about taking a 350z to the track is NUTS; +3k pounds....geezzzzzzz. Every performance enthusiast knows who the king of tracks is -----------> Acura ITR. So anyone who TRIES to make a valid point here about the 350z being a 'track car', <as Nissan MArkets it> cuz yeahh its SOLELY for marketing purposes, knows nothing about autoX. The ITR is just sooo perfectly balanced.....
ps: if u dont know what ITR stands for then the 350z is not for you.
Last edited by GameOver; Aug 29, 2002 at 06:26 PM.
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From: Smackahoe Blvd
Originally posted by GameOver
right on!
One more thing, anybody that thinks about taking a 350z to the track is NUTS; +3k pounds....geezzzzzzz. Every performance enthusiast knows who the king of tracks is -----------> Acura ITR. So anyone who TRIES to make a valid point here about the 350z being a 'track car', <as Nissan MArkets it> cuz yeahh its SOLELY for marketing purposes, knows nothing about autoX. The ITR is just sooo perfectly balanced.....
ps: if u dont know what ITR stands for then the 350z is not for you.
right on!
One more thing, anybody that thinks about taking a 350z to the track is NUTS; +3k pounds....geezzzzzzz. Every performance enthusiast knows who the king of tracks is -----------> Acura ITR. So anyone who TRIES to make a valid point here about the 350z being a 'track car', <as Nissan MArkets it> cuz yeahh its SOLELY for marketing purposes, knows nothing about autoX. The ITR is just sooo perfectly balanced.....
ps: if u dont know what ITR stands for then the 350z is not for you.
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From: SF/ Bay, CA
game over,
ITR maybe awesome, but several members of my Z club autoX and road race their Z32s... 1990 to 1996 300ZXs if you didn't know... they have done very well in their classes even tho they weigh 3400lbs... 200lbs more than 350Zs... from what i remember of the season before last... 2 of our 300ZXs placed 2nd and 3rd overall in OSP
not to mention tracking at thunderhill... where yes someone with a white ITR was out there... kicking some *** through the tighter turns, but always finding himself with the twin turbo ZXs right behind him the whole time and getting passed on the straights.
ITR maybe awesome, but several members of my Z club autoX and road race their Z32s... 1990 to 1996 300ZXs if you didn't know... they have done very well in their classes even tho they weigh 3400lbs... 200lbs more than 350Zs... from what i remember of the season before last... 2 of our 300ZXs placed 2nd and 3rd overall in OSP
not to mention tracking at thunderhill... where yes someone with a white ITR was out there... kicking some *** through the tighter turns, but always finding himself with the twin turbo ZXs right behind him the whole time and getting passed on the straights.
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Originally posted by ordare
Okay, the touring comes with 18's and thus the tire opressure monitoring system, that's huge if you value your safety and that of your rims. Second, the power seats, factory leather, and the top end Bose stereo are to me worth the $$$ since I live in downtown Chicago and any non stock head unit is simply bait. If I did not have to think of plucking dog hair form the cloth interior the Track would be the easy choice. If I could add leather to the track I would (If you can that'd be great news to me). The aero kit is also a worthwhile edition which would leave brakes and rims the only differences between the touring and the track. I never ragged ion anyone for buying the track. This should be clear if you read my posts. IMHO there is no wrong choice, only the one that suits your inteneded uses of the car best. The track is a great value if it gives you what you need, and if not for my dog it would. Leather just holds up better over time with fur and paws. As I said leather is the reason I ordered a Touring pkg , not a stereo, think before you speak and you just might make a point.
Okay, the touring comes with 18's and thus the tire opressure monitoring system, that's huge if you value your safety and that of your rims. Second, the power seats, factory leather, and the top end Bose stereo are to me worth the $$$ since I live in downtown Chicago and any non stock head unit is simply bait. If I did not have to think of plucking dog hair form the cloth interior the Track would be the easy choice. If I could add leather to the track I would (If you can that'd be great news to me). The aero kit is also a worthwhile edition which would leave brakes and rims the only differences between the touring and the track. I never ragged ion anyone for buying the track. This should be clear if you read my posts. IMHO there is no wrong choice, only the one that suits your inteneded uses of the car best. The track is a great value if it gives you what you need, and if not for my dog it would. Leather just holds up better over time with fur and paws. As I said leather is the reason I ordered a Touring pkg , not a stereo, think before you speak and you just might make a point.
http://www.zcar.com/forums/read.php?f=5&i=60169&t=60169 .
I think it's pretty safe to assume it was you. If it's so terrible here, why do you come?
If you did any research at all before you spoke, you would know that a factory leather kit is coming from Nissan for all models, or you could go with Classic Soft Trim. You also assume the TPM system will easily transfer to different wheels. Besides, you can get an aftermarket TPM from SmartTire for $230, so once again it's a moot point.
Lastly, if you knew anything about stereos, you would know that you can build a killer system and leave the stock headunit in place. I did exactly that with my MR2 Spyder because it was a ragtop and I wasn't giving anyone a reason to cut into it. Little did they know there was an Xtant 404a with the noisegate module and crossover module, a JL 8.1 Microsub, and Polk audio DX3065 Seperates. It all ran off the stock head unit and was totally hidden from prying eyes.
So once again, by your own logic. There is no reason for you to buy a Touring.
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Game Over...while I want to call you an idiot, I will refrain. The Z is a great track car and I have no idea why you would think otherwise. Having logged days this year alone on 4 different tracks : Grattan, GingerMan, Blackhawk Farms and Road America in my Audi I would argue that there is no such thing as a car not worth taking to the track. No one on this board is going to set the course record for a lap regardless of the car they run, nor will anyone on this board be engaging in wheel to wheel competition, at least not in thier Z. It just does not work that way. 99.999% of people who "track" thier cars do it with clubs or schools. The whole point of these events is to explore your skill and the limits of your car in a safe and controled environment. While perhaps there might be some friendly Hot Lap competition amongst friends I doubt anyone on this forum has an SCCA Solo I liscense. Suggesting that taking a car such as the Z to the track is "NUTZ" simply shows your lack of experience with such events and the benefits they offer for all drivers of any age, sex, or skill level without regard to the type of car they drive. If anything you should want more people to get some track time under their belt as skills such as threshold braking, apexing, and controling under / oversteer just might be the difference in whether or not they T-bone your new car at 45 mph.