I've seen a few posts on this, but I just need some down and dirty info. I've searched a lot these last couple of weeks and haven't found answer, maybe some of you know the answers to these questions.

#1 Has there been any "before and after" results of adding a reputable exhuast system to your 350Z.

#2 My 98 Cobra's exhaust ran me $250 (MAC Cat back) which included 2 mufflers. Why do 90% of the exhuast systems available cost $600. My cobra's complete exhuast system (MAC $250/Bassani X-Pipe WITH CATALYTIC CONVERTERS) Cost me $500.

#3 We've all seen the dyno's, some cars do great with mods and others don't respond at all. Is there anybody working on a ECU chip or mod for our car?

I can think of a lot of things to do with about $700, than buy a f-ckin exhuast system. Maybe this is more of a rant/complaint. If anything I'm thinking about just doing a flowmaster for a little more sound. Total cost is $150 installed and I won't have to kick myself for paying $700 for an exhaust system that gets me the same performance gain if any.

 

600 is pretty low for the exhausts you will see on here. I paid 900 for mine and it isn't even a full cat back

 

MAC stuff is so cheap because they make **** for parts. I had their exhaust on my 2000 Camaro SS and what a worthless pile it was. The construction was pure garbage. The so called ceramic coating came off on my hands. The best part of the whole exhaust was that it did not fit right so I sold it after a month.

If you want a cheap pile of crap for exhaust, go to a local muffler shop and get a crush bent supreme. If not, spend the money and get a TIG welded, stainless steel, work of art that also makes great power.

 

Well, yeah MAC wasn't good quality, but borla wasn't too much more expensive for the Cobra. I'm just having a hard time seeing why our exhaust is so much more expensive. R and D?

 

Dotn compare domestic exhaust with Jap brand exhaust.

DOmestic systems are of a lesser quality where as jap pieces are of a higher quality. On my SRT-4 system, I am able to get away by using an aluminized steel with mig welds. I sold a large amount of them. The WRX market would laugh at me if i was to sell them that.

Borla is the only manufacture that has a system that is somewhat comparable to the overseas system, but even it falls a little short. The asian market uses highly polished t304 and endetails roboticly tig welded joints.

SS comes from korea which is why the oversea market can dish out good pieces, its pretty cheap when the SS comes from next door vs having it shipped to the states.


OH yeah, the domestic market likes to use cheaper slip fit piping which is harder to take apart where as the JDM market uses cnc flanges which cost more than simple exhaust clamp.

 

Exhaust Depot, You probably sell exhaust systems for a living, but I'm in the construction business, and I can tell you, that you can get Stainless Steel from anywhere and the total cost of materials are going to be close to the same.

When you talk about Slip fit piping and cnc flanges, you are talking about very little difference in cost and labor.

Roboticly tig welded joints. You are talking about the production of the actual exhuast system here, most exhaust system companies have "templates" for creating their exhaust's for their "robotic" welders.

Also, you say not to compare domestic with japanese brand exhaust, which I find hard to believe that japanese exhausts are that much higher in quality, but to compare anyways, they both still cost the same.

 

You mentioned flow masters,I have contacted the factory here in Sacto,Ca, They do not make any exhaust for the 350z as of yet. I have used only this exhaust on my 66 Chevelle,67 Firebird. The best there is. I would put this on my car in a split second. If you have heard differently,who was the contact. Thanks

 

Friz buddy whats up!?

I can tell you that the Ss material is a whole lot cheaper in Korea than it is here in the states. The various ores used to make SS is abundent in Korea. Also another reason for the pieces looking alot better overthere vs here is that labor is cheap. So you can have some one polish up a piece all day long to get you that nice finish. Thats why big name companies here in the states have there systems made else where. I can usaully tell where a piece is made based on teh quality of the system and also on some i can tell based on how the grain on the SS looks like.

 

ED: So, from your last post, exhaust systems should be cheaper???? I just don't get the asking price on some of these systems which range from $600 to $900.

 

Here's the big picture as I see it.

There are two philosophies that manufacturers take to produce power plants for production cars. One is use a lot of displacement and less R&D fine tuning the car. I see the 5.0 liter and 4.6 liter Fords (and I've rebuilt a lot of those 289s and 302s in my day) into this category. The other is to optimize the engine in house, starting with a smaller displacement and really wringing out as much as is economically possible (taking into account EPA, CAFE, warranty, CARB in CA and a lot of other factors.) I put the VQ-35DE in this camp along with EJ205 in the WRX.

The first type of car is very easy and inexpensive to modify, because typical mods (exhaust for example) give really good performance gains over the enemic OE product. As a recent example, I put a CAI into my buddy's RSX Type-S and it gave 17whp! Compare that to a CAI in the 350Z that at most gives 4-5 rwhp.

Also factor in economics. If I develop a good exhaust for a Mustang, I can expect much higher volume sales than if I develop one for the 350Z just by the number of cars on the road. This is why a Borla for a Mustang is going to be much cheaper than one for the 350Z today. Remember that one of the things we like about our 350Z is that not everyone has one...... yet.

We've got a pretty well optimized car from the factory, so our mods will be more expensive/hp. As the aftermarket matures for the 350Z, more power at less money will be found, but this takes time. Remember that the 5.0 mustang block was developed back in 1963.

I look for things that Nissan decided not to optimize for one of the above reasons. High flow cats are an easy mod that, in most states, is legal for the owner to install. The ECU purposely keeps the throttle plate from opening above 82%. I can think of a dozen reasons, only half are technical, to do this.

That's just the way I see it.

 

I think you see it pretty well.

 

Makes sense, but let me add this.

No matter what anyone says, there's nothing exotic about an exhaust system. No matter who it's made by. Nothing. There aren't any mechanical parts, or any other material that would require the extra expense. We're talking about pipes and mufflers.

You said there aren't as many Z's on the road as Mustangs? My 98 Cobra wasn't an overly produced vehicle like the GT. Only 3 production years with it's body style and motor.

 

There are three major factors (and tons of little ones) that determine the production cost of an exhaust. R&D, Materials, and manufacturing. R&D is usually recouped in the first couple of years, so the R&D cost for a platform that's been out for a while (e.g. Fox) will be significantly less than one that's brand new (e.g. FM.) The materials are the materials, Titanium is going to cost more than T-304 stainless. And manufacturing cost are determined by how many bends, welds, etc. The list price is determined by market forces. To say that it's just pipes and mufflers is oversimplifying the manufacturing process.

Your '98 Cobra has a stock 4.6L. engine block and head casting on the Fox platform. It uses the same exhaust as the GT. To use your Borla example, look them both up ('98 GT and '98 Cobra) on Borla's web site and you will find they come out with the same part number (75625.)

Now, I know that your Cobra has many performance improvements over a stock GT (IRS, etc.), but basically it's the same platform, so your argument about it being low production does not hold true for most mods. You should see this as an advantage. You get the benefit of a high volume car when you go to purchase most of your OE or aftermarket parts.

 

"R&D is usually recouped in the first couple of years"

Just can't agree with you on this one. Supercharger R and D maybe, a month to two month's at most go in to exhaust R and D. Even then this is all speculation.

Any experienced exhaust welder can fabricate a quality exhaust in less than a day. Most of these "exhaust companies" have mufflers and don't need to reinvent the wheel with each car. The Borla on the Z is a pretty unique design though. Still, even if Borla spent 1 month and tried 10-15 different designs, I'm sure their R and D didn't spend more than 120 total man hours in design.

Again, Borla is the cheaper of the exhaust makers. Stillen, Nismo, etc. run around $900.

By the way, not trying to be an a-hole, just discussing.

 

I agree, this is a good discussion.

I think you're confusing R&D time with the business case of how to recover the R&D expense. If I know I can design a part that will sell in high volume for several years, I have to make a business decision how to distribute that cost. If you tried to recoup your R&D in your first exhaust, that exhaust would cost many thousands of dollars. Exhaust Depot may be able to put some examples here. How much do you typically have invested by the time you create your first production run of a part?

Next, I think you are confusing fabrication (a 1 time process) with manufacturing (a many times process.) Sure, anyone with a mandrel can bend you up an exhaust, but there is a lot more to designing a good exhaust then bending big pipes. Optimizing backpressure, Dyno testing, road testing, QC, packaging, distribution, etc. Any manufactured exhaust has a lot more invested up front than a few man weeks of labor.

I chose the Nismo Weldina exhaust for my car for a lot of reasons. Other brands will make more upper HP, and still others are cheaper, which is all good, since we all have choices to fit our needs, and competition keeps the prices in check.

 

I personally thought the exhaust for these cars were a bit cheaper then normal.. Well maybe not more then normal but they are cheaper for this car then other cars I was considering.. (s2k and nsx)

 

Roark: What I was trying to say was, R and D may put 120 hours in to designing this exhaust system at most. It's not a complicated matter, I bet they could easily put out 1 design a day and after 15 designs, decide which would be best for HP, Production, and cost. I don't think Exhaust Depot designs exausts, he's a supplier.

Like I said, exhaust systems are nothing more than pipes and mufflers. You've got a few different ways (bends) to get those exhaust gasses to exit out the rear of the car, and to make a system that nets HP and a nice sound isn't exactly a mind bending process.

Maybe if Nismo came out and said, "Hey we design our exhaust system with CAD, exhaust engineer's, and tech's, and can prove our design uses the most optimized bends and welds to get the most out of your car." I'd maybe spend a few more bucks. Yet I don't see any proof.

Being a half/assed electrical engineer myself, I look at it as effiency. What's the most efficient way to get the most HP/good sound out of a vehicle?

You could build a decent computer for $900.

You could rent an apartment for $900 a month here in AZ for a decent place.

You could Buy 1/30TH OF A 350Z for $900! I just don't get it.

 

I give up. haha Exhaust system costs have really shot up in the last 3-4 years. Guess I'm the only one who doesn't see why.

 

Well, regarding you comment that there is nothing exotic about exhausts... you're not thinking titanium!

$600 is nothing compared to the total cost of our cars... titanium systems go for almost triple that cost! My exhaust system (had I bought it) would have been about $1,800...

 

What exotic exhausts? I'm talking about Stainless Steel. Not Titanium. Even then, titanium is not exotic. It's a tube with a muffler that'll get you some weight savings.

What a frusrating losing argument I'm having.