dkmura

iTrader: (64)

As we approach the age of autonomous vehicles, it's revealing to get a perspective on where Z33 owners fit in. The Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) has developed a scale to describe everything from a car where the driver does everything (level 0) to a vehicle that can "perform all driving tasks in the same conditions a human can. No interior steering wheel or brake (pedal) needed" (level 5).

It appears the 350Z/370Z fits under the level I definition: "Vehicle can sometimes assist the human driver, including cruise control". Some base model owners might argue they lack CC, but all Z33/34 utilize ABS 4-channel braking and other semi-autonomous systems to assist drivers, so I think it meets the definition of a level I vehicle.

The next SAE level (2) seems to fit several vehicles on sale in 2017: "Vehicle does some driving, but human must monitor and do most of the driving. This includes many most of today's semi-autonomous systems." Take a look at the Volvo S90 and other high-end sedans (including Infiniti) and you'll see how cars are evolving now.

Car companies like Audi and Nissan claim they will have fully autonomous vehicles on sale by 2020. My hope is they'll get the truly clueless drivers off the road and allow me to drive my Z with some hope of predicting what the "other guy" is going to do! What does everybody else think?

No_name

I've thought about this a lot lately, mixed emotions on the pros-n-cons. I can appreciate the step-improvement, transformation and technological advancement (especially for the clueless - future mobile demographic) but for me, I'll be disappointed to have the "driver's experience" become a distant memory, something only remembered by us geezers from days gone by or via exhibits at the Smithsonian.

Admittedly, I'd be livin' in a 2 room cabin and riding in buckboards and Conestoga wagons if life still allowed that.

dkmura

iTrader: (64)

The driver's experience will be with us as long as level 0 and I cars are maintained and still on the road. For those that just have to have the latest in twin clutch trannys, integrated technology and entertainment features (among others), you are unwittingly moving away from it.

And as for the two-room cabin and buckboards, maybe it'll be Tiny Homes and a BIG garage for our 350Zs?

The Swede

I just wish we could skip the whole integration phase of autonomous vehicles.

What happens when the c(ar)omputer next to me has a sensor failure and decides to have an emergency stop and run me off the road?
What happens if the computer has to decide wether to hit the stationary car, run over the mum and child or smash itself (and possibly kill it's passengers) into a tree?
And what would be the moral thing to do as a manufacturer, kill the other driver/it's passengers, kill the pedestrian or kill it's own passengers?

I'm sure there are perfectly viable solutions to all these problems, but it still scares me a bit.

Some things I really look forward to. For instance autonomous parking (when it works). No more douches, scraped bumpers, dinged fenders etc due to driver mistakes. I won't have to park my Z so far away from the store entrance any more.

dkmura

iTrader: (64)

Skip the integration phase? You mean go directly from level I to 5? Not a good idea IMO- too many technologies to go wrong. I wish we'd have more seamless technology, like ABS or better lighting at night, to help us all be better drivers.

As to all these scenarios, my guess is the autonomous car will sound a warning and then return control to the driver. Ultimately, the scary part is most cases involving real skill and judgment will fall to a human operator. That way, liability rests with someone other than the car company. Another case in which lawyers will get even more work...

The Swede

Sorry I should have worded that differently. I ment skip the whole "we have this awesome new tech let's sell it" *some people die* "Oh we better recall that tech and fix it" *some more people die* "lets sell this other new tech to fix the first new tech" *less people die* "good enough!" -phase.

dkmura

iTrader: (64)

Ah, that's different. Although I suspect level 2-4 will have to be damn near perfect before anything gets released. As for fatalities, we humans are already doing a pretty poor job of operating cars. By the time truly autonomous vehicles get here, they'll likely reduce that rate as it won't be that hard a target to hit.

The only problem there is the ensuing hue and cry to get non-autonomous vehicles off the roads because of SAFETY issues.

MicVelo

I hate it all.

Uggggh..... More no-talent drivers on the road and no need to learn how to properly handle a car or even drive one, FTM.

Here's my question: Will there still be a requirement to get an actual driver's license to operate a car?

Second question: Will the pro-autonomous car people kindly get the f off my lawn?

dkmura

iTrader: (64)

Good deal- Mic is here, so the intelligence **** on this thread just went up! But in response to the "no need to learn how to properly handle a car or even drive one" comment, haven't we been going down THAT road for awhile now? Case in point, the ability to properly operate and shift manual trannys has declined so severely that the majority of the driving public cannot operate them.

As to the second question, car makers will most likely prominently post that a licensed driver MUST be in the driver's seat to take over if there's any kind of failure and the autonomous system returns control to the driver. And you can bet the legal departments are of almost every major car company are studying every possible liability issue to make sure they don't get their aZZes sued off.

Finally, the second question has people standing ALL OVER Mic's lawn. Geez- the grass is starting to die...

MicVelo

Here's the thing that I realistically question of myself....

Do I not like the concept of autonomous cars because:

A) I don't trust machines and have an arguably irrational fear of mechanical/electrical failures?

B) I am a control freak and prefer to be the arbiter and self-made definition of my own fate and destiny?

C) I just detest the lazy factor and the dumb down of society that have led to the innovation behind such devices?

D) All of the above?

Unquestionably, D, or at least to some degree, all.

When I was a kid, I imagined vehicles that did what today's and tomorrow's cars do and will do. Radar/laser distance and braking sensors, self driving over magnetic stripped roads (obviously influenced by my AFX slot cars) and all sorts of devices that were inspired by the Jetsons and such.

Sidenote: I used to tell people my visions of future cars but without the knowledge nor tech to back me up, and, well, I got the "Oh sure sure, Michael, and we'll have devices that cook our meals in 30 seconds.... now run along and play...." fairly often. Obviously, no one said that to Elon Musk. Hahaha.

But once I started driving, all of that pretty much disappeared once I learned about physics and what damage a car can really do in the hands of inept drivers. For this reason, the point about "removing" inept drivers from the roads does hold credibility; but how realistic is this? I facetiously asked the question about driver's licenses because there's already so many inept drivers that it's almost a moot point.

OK, so we're at the point on the autonomous car technological curve where its all suddenly feasible and doable. Perhaps they can help make things safer out there.

Will I change my mind? Some, perhaps. But maybe because of my age (50s), I don't believe I will ever give up human control entirely because I did read and live through "Y2K" and more notably, "1984" and maybe the Orwellian fears still burn inside me.

But let's face it, I just enjoy being in control of something that I can temporarily (and intentionally) lose said control of and on demand, bring it back into my control with the flick of my wrist and a stab of my feets.

Sure, a mosheen could and will do that for me along with serving me Starbucks while simultaneously emergency braking the car to avoid hitting a cyclist on a fixie doing something stupid.

But no thanks, I prefer to know when I'm going to get a scalding hot cup o'jo in my lap.

The Swede

Venting my thoughts a bit:

At the same time as the tech scares me, I also realize that a few hundred years ago people were scared of going off the edge of the flat earth if they went too far. And only some 50 years ago, when we had actually put men on the moon, it was still unthinkable that we would have devices so small and so powerful they could fit in your pocket and contain your entire life many times over...

So if I go ahead of time and assume everything will be autonomous already, what would be the point of a sports car? I'm assuming everything will be electric and have the potential of (compared to today's standards) mental performance, I mean look at the Tesla Model X, what would be the point of having something which is as fast as everything else but smaller and less comfortable? A ride-along in a less comfortable car? I know I'd ride in the more comfortable one.

But;
Racing has already taken steps into fully autonomous racing leagues. And while I struggle to see the point in watching a race between 30 computers all doing the exact same thing for 50 laps (kind of like F1), there is tremendous potential for developing new technologies, funds allowing. Racing has brought so much into "pedestrian" cars already and what's holding them back at the moment is driver(/spectator) safety and funding, and to some extent emissions (but not really...). Imagine if the driver safety concern could be eliminated from F1. Perhaps some of the rules and regulations could be lifted as well?
What about an all out no rules zero f**s given racing class? How fast could you go? The Ring in under 3 minutes?

Many of the systems we use in cars today were designed almost a hundred years ago and although almost perfected, remain in our cars because of development cost and safety laws and regulations. Tried and tested, we know it works, don't put drivers at risk with new stuff yada yada.
But there's no telling how many new perspectives lie beyond the horizon. Some of these radical ideas are already being implemented by small scale companies.


But... if you aren't allowed to ride in it, let alone drive it, what would be the point if you couldn't enjoy being in control of the performance?
This is perhaps one of the human factors that will limit us the most. We LOVE going fast and being in control (or not) of how fast we are going. Riding in a really fast thing is exciting but it doesn't tickle the adrenaline gland as much as knowing that you are the one deciding how fast you are going.

I don't know where I'm going with this anymore so I'll stop here. Was any of this relevant? I don't know.

dkmura

iTrader: (64)

Swede, not quite sure where you're going with that post, but I see some glimmers of gold in there. First, autonomous vehicles in concept have the ability to safely move mass numbers of humans around efficiently in cites. What they don't address is our yearnings for freedom, individual creativity and FUN. Wasn't this why so many of us looked forward to driving as kids, and why we wonder why the current generation of teenagers don't have a clue why driving is such a wonderful thing?

Sometimes, it's not the most efficient way of getting from point A to point B, it's the fun you have in getting there! Autonomous vehicles and their design teams not only can't incorporate much joy into their creations, they can't improvise like a human can. Case in point- driving into downtown Denver and running into a blockade on the main route. Using my knowledge of the area (gained by having fun with my Z), and switching to a series of back/side roads, I enjoy getting to my destination and the satisfaction of pushing my memory to the limits. Did I save a lot of time? Dunno, but it was way more enjoyable. Autonomous cars will probably know these sorts of shortcuts in the future though, and I'll be stuck once again.

And as far as automobile racing goes, it's always been an endeavor that expands human potential in my book. If you put computers behind the wheel, or even allow remote piloting of a racecar, it negates the adventure and danger that make racing the compelling sport it is. As Mic says: " I just enjoy being in control of something that I can temporarily (and intentionally) lose said control of and on demand, bring it back into my control with the flick of my wrist and a stab of my feets."

AX8

End this Autonomous Nightmare NOW !

If you don't want to operate a motor vehicle on the road... Take the Bus

dboyzalter

iTrader: (3)

Sooo will you still get a DUI from the passenger seat if you let your fancy car drive itself home?

Im waiting for the Z prices to hit rock bottom then maybe ill get a few more so ill never need to get a newer car.

Its almost their I think, but the nice ones still go for decent money.

dkmura

iTrader: (64)

As I understand it, the autonomous technology being proposed today requires a licensed driver behind the wheel. More than likely, a level 5 autonomous car will sense this, and simply won't start due to the liability ultimately resting with the operator.

As for Z33 prices, I suspect they've already hit rock bottom. The market is currently filled with cheap cars that have been ridden hard and put away wet. After these cheap Z33s get crashed and otherwise spindled and mutilated, prices will rise again. As for "nice ones", cars with low mileage in great shape will always command a premium. Just ask Mic about how much a "nice" S30 goes for today.