350bread

Maybe someone can shed some light on this for me. My roommate has a BMW 330ci (225hp 190lbs tq) I think the curb wt. is somewhere in the 3400lb range. Can this car hang with the Z? If so, HOW? Car and driver (issue with the blue track Z on the cover) recorded 0-60 5.8 and 1/4 14.4 times for the bimmer. -very close to the Z's recorded times. How is BMW getting this kind of performance out of this car with 60 less HP and being 300lbs heavier than the Z? Last night he was behind me at a stoplight and I punched it expecting to leave his Bimmer ***...but he hung pretty close...allot closer than I expected...

BrainStorm

The numbers are only relatively close. Not like a 100 horsepower difference. Therefore, it would probably be a driver's race, not based solely on the car's ability.

For comparison, the RSX Type-S (200hp, 140tq) and the SE-R Spec-V (175hp, 180tq) are almost head-to-head in any straightline race, it's all on the driver.

rai

I have heard that german horses were stronger than japanese (or american) horses. This in just an opinion of some people, but your observation tends to support this.

I mean the Z has 11 pounds per hp, while the 330 has 15 pounds per hp. That's a huge difference on paper. But cars don't run races on paper.

Nissan has had some weak performances in the past with it's 170hp SE-R and its 340hp Q45 being slower than expected.

I have studdied that 330Ci test you reported in C&D and think it is a result of an abnormally strong engine. It is nearly as fast as the previous generation M3 (with 240hp). I think that most 330Ci's wil be near 6.2 sec, and that most 350Z's will be near 5.4 sec. so if you squint it is close to a second, rather than the other way (5.8 vs 5.4 almost on top of each other).

I can't recall the number now but could you give us the 0-120 or 0-150 times for the 350Z vs the 330Ci. Sometimes the extra power only shows itself at high speeds and the Z may be several seconds faster to 150.

jasonintoronto

remember, power and weight don't mean everything. gearing makes a huge difference. you can stick a m5 engine on a motorbike and with bad gearing it'll really screw up acceleration times.

M3owner

This is what I've been wondering too....my M3 has only 240 horsepower and 236trq, yet its perfprmance numbers are nearly identical to that of the 350Z (5.5 0-60, 14.1 1/4mile). Yet it weighs a little more and only has a 5 speed!

spf4000

You really have to respect BMW. Their technology and engineering is top notch, and they have the numbers to back it up. The 330 is a great car--there's a reason why it keeps getting top honors in head to head comparisons. The price is not too far off from a Z either (well, base 330ci vs. track Z).

I have yet to drive a Z yet, so can someone who has driven both give me your opinion on the two cars?

2wheelsx2

You don't have to stick an M5 engine in a bike, they are already breaking 150 HP at the crank, 135 HP at the rear wheel. A Yamaha R1 makes 135 HP at the rear wheel and weighs just over 400 lbs fully fueled. Thats about 3lbs/HP. Don't even think about racing a bike in terms of 1/4 mile. Bikes are doing sub-10 second quarters. It's in the top speed where more powerful cars have some advantage. But several bikes are already at 180 MPH top speed there also.

Sticking an M5 engine in a bike won't help, as the engine weighs twice what the bike does!

As for the difference in HP between German and Japanese cars, it could be that German manufacturers publish RWP and Japanese car makers publish crank HP.

NSANY

Don't forget, too. We're often talking HP numbers provided by the manufacturer. These numbers can be different when the car is put on a dyno. BMW's 225 might be a bit conservative (I have no evidence to back this up, just an idea).

Also, gearing can go a long way towards compensating for performance. Take the typical differences seen between an automatic car and a manual. (WRX is a prime example of this). Usually, the manual comes out ahead by quite a bit. Why? Two reasons -- better gearing, and less power loss through the drivetrain.

If we focus on the gearing for a second -- it's possible that BMW has optimized it's lower-range gearing to compensate for the power band of the engine.

It's been years since I drove a 3-series, and I have yet to sit in the Z, but it'll be interesting to make some comparisons first hand once I get the damn keys to my car!

jelledge

I'll have to chime in since I own both the 350Z and a 3 series BMW. Don't get me wrong I love my new Z, but the BMW is a well engineered car made to drive hard. Everything is logical and done for a reason. Very little fluff. Nearly every system is well thought out and reliable.

Now I think the Z has been engineered very well also and has some awesome technology. Its obvious that the car catches up to some of best technology out there today.

I think the Bimmer's get there good performance numbers from optimizing the gearing to match the engine's performance output. The engine is also very strong and tend's to have nice fat torque curves without being peaky like some engines. BMW also tunes the engines to produce strong on demand power with little regard to fuel economy

I think it is interesting to look at the performance cars coming out of Germany like BMW and Porsche where they can achieve very high output of Hp and Torque with normally aspirated engines. Seems like the Japanese need turbos to keep pace. Although that is starting to change with some of newer engine designs from Japan. Of course this isn't without a price. Just take a look at BMW's M3 engine --- pushed the output to the limits and they are blowing up left and right. But they will fix it and come back even better......

NSANY

Ah, hold on a second, there. As much as I love a lot of cars from Stuttgart, I have to say that the Japanese have a summa *** laude Ph D when it comes to extracting horsepower out of normally aspirated engines. The Integra GS-R comes to mind right away, as well as the S2000. (Please, can we NOT open the usual can of worms at the mere mention of the S2k?)

Or better yet, how about the engine in the new R1?

Both of those cars get quite a bit of power out of their engines without the need for forced induction.

And all this power without their engines blowing up...

tbcz

I think one of the most important factors in BMWs favor is that they have stuck with the inline 6 configuration. While there are many tradeoffs, the primary being size, I think that setup is inherently smoother and more powerful (as in torque).

Boomer

I looked at an M3 and 330iC for a long time before opting for the Z and one the differences may be, the M3 and 330 have Variable Valve Timing on both the intake and exhaust, the Z has VVT only on the intake, I believe. I need to check NissanDriven to be sure, but could be the reason G HP is a little stronger than J HP.? I just checked and the only reference seems to be to intake, nothing to suggest the VVT is on the exhaust too. I believe it would make a difference if both are VVT like the BMWs.

Boomer

350bread

The BMW is effortless to drive...It's one of those cars that you think you are going 50 and you look down and your going 75. It handles similar -but steering is not as tight and nimple as the Z(which is a plus for the Z in my book) BMW has allot smoother ride- My roomate has the M wheel package with the Z rates...they seem to just snag the road... Lack of torque makes for a more s2000 like acceration with the redline around 6.5K (hard to even catch a wheel going from 1st to 2nd) --with the engine so quiet its hardly even noticed. It seems like it makes it through 1st gear way faster than the Z...right after you floor it, your allready shifting into 2nd.

350bread

...just a side note...The Z is way more fun to drive!

spf4000

Thanks for your input 350bread! I was dead set on getting the Z, but I realized that the 330ci is in the same price range, so I'm now planning to wait until I test drive a Z before I make my final decision.

I love the styling of the Z, but you can't beat the feeling you get in a german car, you know?

nazzdeq

I currently have a 2000 BMW 323 coupe...runs crappy because it has only 170hp. (I'm getting a Track 350Z in 9 months when my lease runs out. I used to have a 92 TT 300ZX)

The 330 has 225hp and runs way better, but the only bimmers I would buy over the new Z would be the M3 or M5.

No way would I get a 330 over the new Z. The 350z looks ten times better and 3 series bimmers are a dime a dozen.

-Nazz

350bread

Well, base $ on a 330ci is 35K, but this is totally stripped down. My roomates was 41.5K loaded + tax = 43.5k. My Z was 29K (Enth w/ spoiler kit and trimmings) 32K w/ tax. They really arent that close in price range...prob. 7k difference. Id say the 325 series Bimmer is closer to the Z in price range....but its not even close to the Z in terms of performance.

If you want a car that drives like a nice sporty sedan, get the Bimmer....
If you want a car that drives like a mean sports car, get the Z.

Another side note...My Roomate (330ci owner) Loves my Z and is VERY impressed....

350bread

...I think he has a little bit of Z envy!!!

Apexi350z

iTrader: (3)

330Ci shouldn't be compare to our 350Z. It should be compared to G35c.

You may want to go check out G35c, it's similar priced with 350z, but has more luxury equipments that is comparable to BMW.