280z/300zx

Since when did the 370z become 12 sec car. The new SS will probably be a high 12 sec car and the Shelby is a mid 12 car. The 370z is going to need a bit more than the hp than speculated to hit those numbers. Lets not forget that the HR is still rated at 13.6 by mags. Only real time drivers have managed low 13's. These V8 cars are hitting 12's by magazines and even faster by real life drivers. Similar to the Z06 being rated as a high 11 sec car but people have managed to break into the 10's stock down to the tires. If they want to command a higher price tag on the Z they need to bring more to the table than an n/a application. Keep the n/a in the 30-35k range with 2-3 different modles and bring a turbo application with 380+hp at 38-40k. Then you'll have a Z thats competitive and deserves a higher price tag. Otherwise with 330hp as speculated per the G37's power they need to keep the Z as a bargin sports car and keep the price down

Endgame

The 370 will more than likely be right alongside the SS Camaro and the Shelby. I will stick to that. Those cars may have torque, but they weigh SOOO much more than the Z. Weight is thy enemy.

Besides, we are not just talking quarter mile or 0-60 performance. The Z will be a much better track car than the Shelby or Camaro. That justifies the price alone. It is all in who you are marketing to. If you want 0-60 or quarter mile performance, do like my father... Stick the the muscle cars (Camaro/Stang/Viper/Vette, etc). I want a track terror and will pay for a track terror (Lotus Elise anyone???)

BrianV

CORRECTION: The Vette is not a muscle car, it's a sports car. It can do some serious damage on a track unlike the Stang and past Camaros. I think the latest Car&Driver has a Z51 Vette owning everything in the non-exotic class on a track by a healthy margin. This includes the latest M3, C63 AMG, the ZR1 powered CTS, G37, EVO, STi, etc.

My reason for pointing this out, is that if the prices of the Z get close to that of a Vette, then the 370Z doesn't have much to stand on as far as a value sports car, as a 436HP Vette that also weighs around 3,100LBS is going to outrun a 370Z any way you slice it, even with leaf springs. With better than GMS pricing + 0% financing going on with Vettes now, a 1LT can be had for under $40k with 0% financing making it a stout value for a sports car. The 0% kicker can make a 1LT actually less expensive than a $35k 370z depending on how you look at it.

I'll stick with the guy above who said that if Nissan wants to justify the car costing 35k+, then it needs to make a performance statement, otherwise keep the base in the high-20s and make it the best value sports car. If it runs mid-13s and costs $35k base, a 1LT Z51 Vette is the "better" value. If it's performance can more closely match a Vette, then Nissan will once again be making a statement.

On a final note, if Nissan sets the price of the Z too close to the G37 then there could be some competition there as well. There used to be a $7k price difference between a base 350z and G35 Coupe which seemed pretty natural. If they were the same price, I feel a large chunk of the market would've gone to the G35 even though its performance isn't the same. Even though the new G37 is a pig, it has the same engine, will be quieter, will be "classier" to some eyes, and if the prices are near the same, the 370Z will lose sales. Unless the performance is significantly different, average joe consumer will have to decide against luxury vs performance. If the performance delta isn't high enough, 370z loses. 1/2 second quarter mile may not be enough to cut it; remember acceleration is what MOST people look at when comparing performance.

Finally, let's not make this a Vette versus 370Z thread. I know many people just don't like Vettes for a list of reasons, most of which are subjective. I used to be in this camp as well, until I started looking at it objectively and realized, you can't argue the freaking performance of the vehicle and all the "horrible suspension, cheap interior, american garbage" can't be argued. Except maybe the interior (still somewhat subjective), but I'll tell you a C6 interior is considerably nicer and higher quality than my 04 350Zs was. Anyways, let's not start the argument, and let's hope Nissan brings their A-game.

If it's not 350HP and <3,100 LBS I'm not really interested at $35k+. I'll buy a used Cayman S or wait a year or two for the M3.

Endgame

You are right on the Vette not being a muscle car. I was just lazy and did not feel like breaking it out into its own teir....

Also, I am not talking about a base Z; I am speaking more to the 'sport' package Z. To your point, 35k WILL NOT be advisable with the current market; Nissan will have to come down off that price.

Remember also that Nissan is not targetting the Vette; they are targeting the Cayman. How much does a Cayman cost in relation to a Vette??? Again, it is all about the audience you are targeting. I KNOW, I KNOW, we are talking a Nissan vs. a Porsche, but it is those buyers Nissan is targeting.

That said, they can still sell some Zs if the benchmark is the Cayman; not even mentioning the Vette. This is the same type logic they took with the GT-R. Don't target the Z06/Viper, target the 911. They still got a few crossover buyers.

Honest if the market continues as is, maybe you could pick up a Vette for 34k, a Cayman S for 45k and the Z for 27k!!! Hey, I can dream, right?

BrianV

Ironically, this cayman thing isn't really a truthful comparison, Nissan is just trying to make a buzz. You heard it here first, nobody considering the cayman will really consider a Z. They're just in a different class. A Cayman purchaser (especially a non-S shopper) is obviously buying it because it's a Porsche, not because it brings any value or even decent performance to the table. Nobody shopping a $50k Cayman is going to consider a $35k Z, sorry, not gonna happen. Maybe a G37, but not a Nissan Z/boy racer car. However, if the performance and value are there, I can see potential Vette shoppers switching to the rising sun.

That was a stunt to make the Z comparable to a Porsche so common folk will be attracted to it as a Porsche killer, not to earn Porsche Cayman business. The GTR's tactic was different because it's price a low volume, truly a "Halo Car" for Nissan. The Z tactic is a mass-market targeted car and they're just making a Porsche killer accessible to the mass-market. Good tactic, but I'm hoping the benchmark is the Cayman S and not the lowly Cayman. In fact, the 135i is a better comparison, but it's not as sexy as "PORSCHE".

Cheers!

tnk210

iTrader: (23)

Nissan seems to always go after Porsche. Everyone remember the large Z banner that came out early on that said "Places to go, things to do, Porsches to pass."

BrianV

It's easy to market/advertise whatever you want. Nissan hit a grand slam with the GTR, exceeding the expectations originally thought of. Nissan sees Porsche as the defacto mass-market sports car. It's not a realistic comparison for the 370Z to be compared to a Porsche, but Nissan is going to prove it can compete with them in thinking that people who wish they could have a Porsche will come to their camp.

SnakeBitten

iTrader: (8)

LOL at the 370z being on par with the GT500. Not in any stretch of the imagination. Cant compare them in performance or price. Maybe the rumored v8 Z maybe but not this 330-350hp 370z.

I believe a good driver will hit high 12's with teh 370z but the norm will probably be low 13's. Lets hope the prices of entry stays below 30k adn avoid the 10% hike.

Greg06

Sorry don't agree with that... A lot of people cross shop.

I'm former 964 C2 owner, looking for another weekend car maybe another 911. The 1st thing on my list tho, is a replacement for my 06 ZR DD with hopefully (if its not a total turd) the 370.

I also personally know quite a few other porsche owners in my local PCA (911's, caymans etc..) that also own Z's or other type vehicles S2k's, Z4's lexus or whatever.. for 2nd cars etc..

Been to the caymanclub forum there are quite a few former Z or Z/cayman owners there.

My point is... A lot of people buy or cross shop cheaper cars. Not everyone's a badge ***** or just buys strictly,very expensive cars.

Greg06

LOL Don't get me wrong man... I like the next guy would love a insane performing car for under $30k.

But realistically you know there's going to be large compromises, if it does indeed come in under the $30k level.

BrianV

Our definition of "A LOT" may be different. Also, you bring up a few counter points in your post. First, if someone already has a Cayman, then they're not cross shopping, they're filling their garage with more cars that meet different needs, further proving they're not comparison shopping. Chances are they think, "The Cayman is my nicer/special car, but it's not a daily driver like a Z is so I'm going to have both." That doesn't relate to cross-shopping since they're going to buy both anyways which MOST/A LOT of people aren't in a financial situation to do nor want two 2 seater sports cars. If they truly were comparable as Nissan markets, then the owner should find NO need for owning the Porsche since the Z is everything or better at a lesser price.

I still fail to see how you're cross shopping the Z and Porsche when you stated you're looking for another Porsche and then go on to quickly state your first task is to replace your 06 ZR DD with a 370Z. This states that the 370Z is not being cross shopped with a Porsche but is seen as a daily driver with the Porsche still being considered a specialty vehicle (two separate purchase decisions independent of each other). It's not a fair argument since at no point are the vehicles being cross shopped.

Finally, former Z owners converted to Cayman owners proves my initial point further. I'm in the same camp. In 2004, I was the ideal demographic for the 350Z. However, now, with a different job and a better financial situation, I'm looking at moving from the entry-level sports car to the next level or higher (M3, Vette, Cayman, etc.). I'm not looking at Zs, Mustangs, Evos, etc unless the Z is just so bada$$; I do have brand loyalty to the Z and Nissan since I've had so many. Anyhow, the former Z owners obviously upgraded and aren't cross-shopping either. It's a natural progression for sports car drivers to upgrade if their financial situation allows.

I'm still sticking by my words that on any given Saturday in 2009, average Joe shopper is not going to be driving from the Porsche dealer to the Nissan dealer to do back to back test drives of Z and Cayman (Joe shopper = one who can truly afford both vehicles and is prepared to purchase a new vehicle, i.e. not some young kids test driving cars for fun). They will be going from the BMW dealer to the Porsche dealer or the Subaru dealer to the Nissan dealer. That's a bit of a generalization, but it doesn't change that even a $35k 350Z and $55k Cayman aren't cross-shopped by any sizable amount (there will always be exceptions).

Here's an extreme case of similar marketing. When Hyundai launched the Azera a few years back (not the new Genesis), they marketed it as larger than a 7 series BMW. That marketing tactic was not to win over 7 series prospects / current drivers, but to win over common folk who never dreamed of owning a 7 series because it's out of their price range. It's for that, "Hey Honey, we should check out the new Azera, it's as big as the flagship 7 series."

That new Chevy Cobalt SS can probably outperform a Cayman....

Endgame

Well... I am in a better job (salary doubled and much higher bonus potential) and I still seem to be more intrigued with the Z. I do not care to upgrade (althought that Audi TT RS is interesting to me).

To each his own I suppose. I guess I would be more pissed if I destroyed a Cayman on a road course versus destroying a Z...

BrianV

I don't plan on destroying any cars, hehe.

Greg06

Whats with the book report?

Relax... You don't live in my part of the world nor I in yours. We all agree to disagree that's how it is with us humans.

It's really very very simple... Im buying 2 (thats 2 total) cars. Of different makes...Im cross shopping different brands..


Man... Some of you guys take this stuff way too seriously...

SnakeBitten

iTrader: (8)

Agreed. But with Nissan endowing the GTR with 200k car performance for comparative pennies it gives me hope that the 370z will share a similar philosophy. I expect it to be on the heals of much more expensive cars. It will definately be a Cayman killer so those looking to "upgrade" to a Cayman solely based on performance should probably wait to see how the overall 370z package looks and performs before doing the Porsche thing just because its a Porsche.

BTW Greg the Internet is serious business

BrianV

If it out performs the regular Cayman = Not impressed as current Z's already match/beat its performance
If it out performs that Cayman S = Impressed especially if it out peforms it on a track

Endgame

LOL! Well, I do not either, but sometimes I get a little KA RAZY!!!

Greg06