If Porsche Really Is the Benchmark..........
10-25-2008, 11:41 AM
#61
Cost. Larger engine, at same weight means more expensive, means the Z would be 50 grand. There is a cost to everything man. When you sit in a Porsche there is no way you can consider the Z in the same group. Its economy, vs High-end. The quality of materials, the fit and finish, you name it. If you want to keep the Z affordable, there are limits.
10-25-2008, 12:08 PM
#62
Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: ATX
Posts: 354
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Many people were clamoring or requesting a V8 in the current 350Z because it was a little bit lethargic. They simply wanted MORE POWER to push the car around, and Nissan happened to have a 4.5 V8 that would fit nicely. Seems like an easy fix - problem solved.
Now imagine if the 350Z came stock with 355 HP from the factory - would there have been as much outcry for more power? No, of course not... that's a big performance difference, and reasonable power for the size car.
Well, that's the same power/weight ratio as the new 370Z, assuming 340HP and weighing 3200 pounds.
Sure, some people always want more power, but if the 350Z came with 355 HP, I don't think you would have had as many people worried about "more power", and therefore looking for a V8 to begin with.
Honestly, a few years ago, I think it was quite possble to see a V8 in a Z chassis to keep it competitive, maybe go after the Vette a little bit.
But considering the increased power/lighter weight of the new 370Z, and the importance these days on fuel economy, and now a halo sports car in the GT-R, it just isn't going to happen anytime soon.
10-25-2008, 04:46 PM
#63
Registered User
iTrader: (5)
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: NJ
Posts: 1,172
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I prefer the sound of a v6 to a v8 in the Z. I always think of my friend mustang when I hear a v8. Though exotic v8's sound great, they different than american v8's usually. Think it would be more fun redlining at 7500-8k rather than 6k in the v8. I mean nissan isnt Ferrari with their 8k revving v8's.
10-25-2008, 06:15 PM
#64
Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Texas
Posts: 818
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There is nothing to consider with a V8 in the Z. It's not going to happen. And the 350Z has never targeted the Vette. The beauty of the Z is that Nissan offers a perfect balance of power and handling at an affordable price. And the true die hard enthusiasts and those who crave more power can easily mod the car to their liking. Turbos in a new production Z Car? Who knows. IF it happens it will be in the NISMO 370Z.
Last edited by zsport1; 10-25-2008 at 08:22 PM.
10-26-2008, 04:43 AM
#66
Registered User
iTrader: (8)
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: NY
Posts: 1,505
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There is nothing to consider with a V8 in the Z. It's not going to happen. And the 350Z has never targeted the Vette. The beauty of the Z is that Nissan offers a perfect balance of power and handling at an affordable price. And the true die hard enthusiasts and those who crave more power can easily mod the car to their liking. Turbos in a new production Z Car? Who knows. IF it happens it will be in the NISMO 370Z.
10-26-2008, 07:36 AM
#68
Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Texas
Posts: 818
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Agreed. The 300zx had the mission of going after the big dogs not the 350z. Thats what the GTR mission is now. If we never got the GTR on our shores maybe Nissan would have just TT'd the 350z for that mission instead of dropping a V8 in to compete with the big dogs. As the GTR shows you dont need a V8 to compete with the big dogs. A v8 Z would be intriguing though you must admit.
10-26-2008, 04:32 PM
#69
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: SoCal
Posts: 57
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I guess the original point I was trying to make, which no one picked up on, is that since Nissan has decided to make Porsche their target manufacturer, trying to offer comparable performance at about half the price, there is now an opportunity for Nissan to strike. Because of the 911's heritage, and internal politics, Porsche will never allow the Cayman S to run with the big dawgs. Nissan can make some serious inroads in the market with a new 370Z with a better power to weight ratio.
I don't mean to imply that Nissan builds cars of the same caliber as Porsche. They don't. I've dealt with Porsche on warranty claim issues before with positive results. Not everyone can say that. Porsche is a niche manufacturer and Nissan is a volume manufacturer. They look at things quite differently when building a business case for a new model.
We're left to speculate as to vehicle performance dynamics until the 370Z's launch. Who knows, maybe a stock 370Z will be sufficient to keep up with the new Cayman S.
I've read rumors of an I4Turbo engine option in an entry-level variant of the new Z. This may have been dispelled before. Not sure. A product line using a variety of engines would certainly address a broad series of market segments. An entry level I4T coupe with few luxuries at the bottom, followed by the normally aspirated 370Z series, topped by the 370ZTT at the top. The 370ZTT could go after the 911/911S , while the 370Z goes after the Cayman S/Boxster. The I4 Z (240Z?) could go after Miata/Solstice territory. All while the GT-R goes after the 911TT.
I believe there could be untapped market potential for the new Z at about half the price of the corresponding Porsche model. A fully loaded Cayman S, with navigation, full leather, bluetooth and sport package will easily be pushing $70K. With all available options, the Cayman can easily reach the low to mid-$70ks. As we all know, a maxed out Nismo from 2008 lists for $38K-39K.
One thing is for sure, if Nissan wants to lure Porsche owners away, they will have to improve the buying experience at Nissan dealerships. That is the key. I've always felt that the biggest Achilles heel of the GT-R would be the Nissan dealer network. You can have a great car, but if every visit to the dealer is a PITA, it's bound to affect sales.
Is it possible to find a turbo kit for the Z that is CARB certified and wouldn't void my warranty? THAT would be the answer for me. But only after I had spent a sum equivalent to the cost of the turbo kit attending several performance driving schools (Skip Barber, etc.). Just having more power doesn't mean a driver knows how to use it.
BC
zed-er
I don't mean to imply that Nissan builds cars of the same caliber as Porsche. They don't. I've dealt with Porsche on warranty claim issues before with positive results. Not everyone can say that. Porsche is a niche manufacturer and Nissan is a volume manufacturer. They look at things quite differently when building a business case for a new model.
We're left to speculate as to vehicle performance dynamics until the 370Z's launch. Who knows, maybe a stock 370Z will be sufficient to keep up with the new Cayman S.
I've read rumors of an I4Turbo engine option in an entry-level variant of the new Z. This may have been dispelled before. Not sure. A product line using a variety of engines would certainly address a broad series of market segments. An entry level I4T coupe with few luxuries at the bottom, followed by the normally aspirated 370Z series, topped by the 370ZTT at the top. The 370ZTT could go after the 911/911S , while the 370Z goes after the Cayman S/Boxster. The I4 Z (240Z?) could go after Miata/Solstice territory. All while the GT-R goes after the 911TT.
I believe there could be untapped market potential for the new Z at about half the price of the corresponding Porsche model. A fully loaded Cayman S, with navigation, full leather, bluetooth and sport package will easily be pushing $70K. With all available options, the Cayman can easily reach the low to mid-$70ks. As we all know, a maxed out Nismo from 2008 lists for $38K-39K.
One thing is for sure, if Nissan wants to lure Porsche owners away, they will have to improve the buying experience at Nissan dealerships. That is the key. I've always felt that the biggest Achilles heel of the GT-R would be the Nissan dealer network. You can have a great car, but if every visit to the dealer is a PITA, it's bound to affect sales.
Is it possible to find a turbo kit for the Z that is CARB certified and wouldn't void my warranty? THAT would be the answer for me. But only after I had spent a sum equivalent to the cost of the turbo kit attending several performance driving schools (Skip Barber, etc.). Just having more power doesn't mean a driver knows how to use it.
BC
zed-er
10-26-2008, 05:06 PM
#71
Registered User
iTrader: (8)
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: NY
Posts: 1,505
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Zed-er there is untapped market potential everywhere you look regardless as to which two mfgs you are comparing but it costs tons of money to certify 3 different engines for one model lineup and I dont see Nissan doing this. Especially when the VQ is more than capable of addressing the power ranges across those models that you aluded to.
I see where you are coming from though and Ive voiced my opinion on another thread as well as to where Nissan can take advantage. But I dont know if its Nissans goal is to go after every model in Porsche's lineup.
A 400hp+ NA 370z could easily be made to compete with the GT3 Porsche if Nissan choses to do so and I believe Nissan could offer Nismo 370z with those specs for under 50k. That would be a ridiculous steal. That would be a Z that would clean up all the GTR's light work like the C6, M3 V8 any "current" NA Porsche etc. Pipedream though but a Z like that could bring world peace. Would love to see what an NA version of the GTR's engine would put out.
I see where you are coming from though and Ive voiced my opinion on another thread as well as to where Nissan can take advantage. But I dont know if its Nissans goal is to go after every model in Porsche's lineup.
A 400hp+ NA 370z could easily be made to compete with the GT3 Porsche if Nissan choses to do so and I believe Nissan could offer Nismo 370z with those specs for under 50k. That would be a ridiculous steal. That would be a Z that would clean up all the GTR's light work like the C6, M3 V8 any "current" NA Porsche etc. Pipedream though but a Z like that could bring world peace. Would love to see what an NA version of the GTR's engine would put out.
10-26-2008, 05:15 PM
#72
Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Texas
Posts: 818
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I've read rumors of an I4Turbo engine option in an entry-level variant of the new Z. This may have been dispelled before. Not sure. A product line using a variety of engines would certainly address a broad series of market segments. An entry level I4T coupe with few luxuries at the bottom, followed by the normally aspirated 370Z series, topped by the 370ZTT at the top. The 370ZTT could go after the 911/911S , while the 370Z goes after the Cayman S/Boxster. The I4 Z (240Z?) could go after Miata/Solstice territory. All while the GT-R goes after the 911TT.
No I-4T, no TT, and no V8.
10-26-2008, 05:27 PM
#73
Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Podland Americana
Posts: 31
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
10-27-2008, 12:43 AM
#74
Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 1,197
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I guess the original point I was trying to make, which no one picked up on, is that since Nissan has decided to make Porsche their target manufacturer, trying to offer comparable performance at about half the price, there is now an opportunity for Nissan to strike. Because of the 911's heritage, and internal politics, Porsche will never allow the Cayman S to run with the big dawgs. Nissan can make some serious inroads in the market with a new 370Z with a better power to weight ratio.
I don't mean to imply that Nissan builds cars of the same caliber as Porsche. They don't. I've dealt with Porsche on warranty claim issues before with positive results. Not everyone can say that. Porsche is a niche manufacturer and Nissan is a volume manufacturer. They look at things quite differently when building a business case for a new model.
We're left to speculate as to vehicle performance dynamics until the 370Z's launch. Who knows, maybe a stock 370Z will be sufficient to keep up with the new Cayman S.
I've read rumors of an I4Turbo engine option in an entry-level variant of the new Z. This may have been dispelled before. Not sure. A product line using a variety of engines would certainly address a broad series of market segments. An entry level I4T coupe with few luxuries at the bottom, followed by the normally aspirated 370Z series, topped by the 370ZTT at the top. The 370ZTT could go after the 911/911S , while the 370Z goes after the Cayman S/Boxster. The I4 Z (240Z?) could go after Miata/Solstice territory. All while the GT-R goes after the 911TT.
I believe there could be untapped market potential for the new Z at about half the price of the corresponding Porsche model. A fully loaded Cayman S, with navigation, full leather, bluetooth and sport package will easily be pushing $70K. With all available options, the Cayman can easily reach the low to mid-$70ks. As we all know, a maxed out Nismo from 2008 lists for $38K-39K.
One thing is for sure, if Nissan wants to lure Porsche owners away, they will have to improve the buying experience at Nissan dealerships. That is the key. I've always felt that the biggest Achilles heel of the GT-R would be the Nissan dealer network. You can have a great car, but if every visit to the dealer is a PITA, it's bound to affect sales.
Is it possible to find a turbo kit for the Z that is CARB certified and wouldn't void my warranty? THAT would be the answer for me. But only after I had spent a sum equivalent to the cost of the turbo kit attending several performance driving schools (Skip Barber, etc.). Just having more power doesn't mean a driver knows how to use it.
BC
zed-er
I don't mean to imply that Nissan builds cars of the same caliber as Porsche. They don't. I've dealt with Porsche on warranty claim issues before with positive results. Not everyone can say that. Porsche is a niche manufacturer and Nissan is a volume manufacturer. They look at things quite differently when building a business case for a new model.
We're left to speculate as to vehicle performance dynamics until the 370Z's launch. Who knows, maybe a stock 370Z will be sufficient to keep up with the new Cayman S.
I've read rumors of an I4Turbo engine option in an entry-level variant of the new Z. This may have been dispelled before. Not sure. A product line using a variety of engines would certainly address a broad series of market segments. An entry level I4T coupe with few luxuries at the bottom, followed by the normally aspirated 370Z series, topped by the 370ZTT at the top. The 370ZTT could go after the 911/911S , while the 370Z goes after the Cayman S/Boxster. The I4 Z (240Z?) could go after Miata/Solstice territory. All while the GT-R goes after the 911TT.
I believe there could be untapped market potential for the new Z at about half the price of the corresponding Porsche model. A fully loaded Cayman S, with navigation, full leather, bluetooth and sport package will easily be pushing $70K. With all available options, the Cayman can easily reach the low to mid-$70ks. As we all know, a maxed out Nismo from 2008 lists for $38K-39K.
One thing is for sure, if Nissan wants to lure Porsche owners away, they will have to improve the buying experience at Nissan dealerships. That is the key. I've always felt that the biggest Achilles heel of the GT-R would be the Nissan dealer network. You can have a great car, but if every visit to the dealer is a PITA, it's bound to affect sales.
Is it possible to find a turbo kit for the Z that is CARB certified and wouldn't void my warranty? THAT would be the answer for me. But only after I had spent a sum equivalent to the cost of the turbo kit attending several performance driving schools (Skip Barber, etc.). Just having more power doesn't mean a driver knows how to use it.
BC
zed-er
Search next time, as this nissan/porsche or chevy/nissan or audi whatever nonsense has been brought up god knows how many times.
And dude ANY Forced induction mod would void your warranty.
Last edited by Greg06; 10-27-2008 at 12:47 AM.
10-27-2008, 12:52 AM
#75
Registered User
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: SoCal
Posts: 57
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
SnakeBitten,
I had heard that if Nissan goes the I4 route, it will be with an off the shelf engine, so no cert needed. I like your ideas, though. Probably never happen, tho. ;-)
LesCrate-
Porsche will never do anything to allow the Cayman S to come close to 911 performance. Just as with the 944Turbo in the late 80s, Porsche always dumbed down the car so it wouldn't compete with the 911. The 944 platform was much more balanced and docile than 911, and easier to drive fast. But Porsche never allowed it to get close to 911. Same now for Cayman S. They won't bore out the engine, go with FI, put in a V8 - nothing. Because the 911 is what brought them success and they're sticking with it. Everyone says the Cayman platform is more balanced and much easier to drive at speed. No matter. The Cayman isn't the 911.
On the other hand, if Nissan starts to kick Porsche's @$$ a little, it might make Porsche management wise up and realize the possibilities of the Cayman platform becoming "the next 911" for Porsche. Then, perhaps they will explore the full potential of the Cayman platform.
Of course the world monetary situation, should it continue to decline and degrade, is very likely to bring such frivolity as 370ZTT development and Cayman Turbo S development to a screeching halt. I read that GM has put the development of the C7 off until 2013 or something.
I don't know what the answer is, but I hope we find it soon.
If nothing else, there will be plenty of slightly used 911TT, C6Z06, etc. available for little coin. I guess that's about all we can hope for for a silver lining.
As of now, if the 370Z has the right amount of juice, along with enough clear luggage space for a couple guitars and my amp, I'll likely go with a trim level comparable to the 350Z Tourist, possibly Grand Tourist. If not, I may just look around for a smoking deal on a leftover 2008 350Z Tourist and make some interior mods.
I am considering getting a subwoofer that fits underneath the rear strut brace and relocating the speakers from behind the seats there. Then I want to look at removing that mountain of plastic crap containing the speakers and glove box behind the seats. I want to open up and expose the area beneath the existing floor to increase luggage capacity a little. Just leave a smaller bulkhead behind the seats, but a larger area to carry guitars. Eventually, I may go the TT route, if there's a CARB certified kit available. If not available, I am considering a cross country move to a state where CARB is a four letter word and I can add TT without breaking the law. Some times it sucks living in a state as "progressive" as California.
zed-er
I had heard that if Nissan goes the I4 route, it will be with an off the shelf engine, so no cert needed. I like your ideas, though. Probably never happen, tho. ;-)
LesCrate-
Porsche will never do anything to allow the Cayman S to come close to 911 performance. Just as with the 944Turbo in the late 80s, Porsche always dumbed down the car so it wouldn't compete with the 911. The 944 platform was much more balanced and docile than 911, and easier to drive fast. But Porsche never allowed it to get close to 911. Same now for Cayman S. They won't bore out the engine, go with FI, put in a V8 - nothing. Because the 911 is what brought them success and they're sticking with it. Everyone says the Cayman platform is more balanced and much easier to drive at speed. No matter. The Cayman isn't the 911.
On the other hand, if Nissan starts to kick Porsche's @$$ a little, it might make Porsche management wise up and realize the possibilities of the Cayman platform becoming "the next 911" for Porsche. Then, perhaps they will explore the full potential of the Cayman platform.
Of course the world monetary situation, should it continue to decline and degrade, is very likely to bring such frivolity as 370ZTT development and Cayman Turbo S development to a screeching halt. I read that GM has put the development of the C7 off until 2013 or something.
I don't know what the answer is, but I hope we find it soon.
If nothing else, there will be plenty of slightly used 911TT, C6Z06, etc. available for little coin. I guess that's about all we can hope for for a silver lining.
As of now, if the 370Z has the right amount of juice, along with enough clear luggage space for a couple guitars and my amp, I'll likely go with a trim level comparable to the 350Z Tourist, possibly Grand Tourist. If not, I may just look around for a smoking deal on a leftover 2008 350Z Tourist and make some interior mods.
I am considering getting a subwoofer that fits underneath the rear strut brace and relocating the speakers from behind the seats there. Then I want to look at removing that mountain of plastic crap containing the speakers and glove box behind the seats. I want to open up and expose the area beneath the existing floor to increase luggage capacity a little. Just leave a smaller bulkhead behind the seats, but a larger area to carry guitars. Eventually, I may go the TT route, if there's a CARB certified kit available. If not available, I am considering a cross country move to a state where CARB is a four letter word and I can add TT without breaking the law. Some times it sucks living in a state as "progressive" as California.
zed-er
10-27-2008, 08:15 AM
#77
Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: ATX
Posts: 354
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Or simply use the 3.8 liter engine they already produce for the 911 "S" models... it fits right in.
The weight of the upcoming 370Z chassis is going to really dictate the circles in which it can compete.
A 3350 pound Z and a 3100 pound Z can compete with very different cars, performance-wise.
As mentioned, the 3.7L engine has a lot of potential... from 330 HP to upwards of 400 HP with a displacement bump.
A 3100 pound NISMO Z with 400HP would be impressively knocking on the GT3's back door.
But again, even a 370Z with 340 HP and 3200 pounds would be a VERY large performance improvement over the current 350Z... let's hope they keep it light, to make the most of acceleration AND handling.
The weight of the upcoming 370Z chassis is going to really dictate the circles in which it can compete.
A 3350 pound Z and a 3100 pound Z can compete with very different cars, performance-wise.
As mentioned, the 3.7L engine has a lot of potential... from 330 HP to upwards of 400 HP with a displacement bump.
A 3100 pound NISMO Z with 400HP would be impressively knocking on the GT3's back door.
But again, even a 370Z with 340 HP and 3200 pounds would be a VERY large performance improvement over the current 350Z... let's hope they keep it light, to make the most of acceleration AND handling.
10-27-2008, 09:10 AM
#79
Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Olathe, KS
Posts: 45
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I didnt think nissan was directly competing with porsche. It says they are using Porsche as their benchmark. I havent seen anywhere that Nissan is directly targeting Porsche buyers for the new 370Z. Sure anyone teetering on the fence about the Caymen but is a little gun shy about price will help Nissan pick up some market share. But Porsche holds a certain status symbol that Nissan will never have. I cant say for certain since i dont work in Nissan's marketing department but it seems that the Z's main focus is getting the most bang for the buck. Which i think it achieves that goal hands down.
The 370Z is the next logical step in the Z's evolution. Shorter wheel base, lighter car, and more power. Complete with variable valve and intake timing. R&D budget is a huge factor in how much progression a new generation of car can jump ahead of its predecessor. Nissan isnt going to eat the R&D cost of the new Z those of us who buy one are.
Now onto multiple motor platforms and boosted Z's. Again R&D of either setup will make the car cost more. You cant spend a ton of money developing something new and then just eat that cost to keep the MSRP down. IF you did you would have to change your name from Nissan to GM and post a 60 billion dollar loss. You also have to take into consideration the manufacturing costs of multiple engines or boosted cars. The current production of the Z is done cheaply. Offering multiple motors increases your cost of production because they wont all be done on the same assembly line. If they are on the same line you have intervals of downtime for re-tooling that increase your labor costs. Unfortunately with todays economy things must be skimped out on in order for Nissan to get the most bang for thier buck with new Z.
I could go on and on but i will stop and just say i love the new Z. A V8 wont happen anytime soon, nor will a boosted Z. But the idea of a 400hp track tuned NISMO for 42-45k is a freaking awesome idea.
The 370Z is the next logical step in the Z's evolution. Shorter wheel base, lighter car, and more power. Complete with variable valve and intake timing. R&D budget is a huge factor in how much progression a new generation of car can jump ahead of its predecessor. Nissan isnt going to eat the R&D cost of the new Z those of us who buy one are.
Now onto multiple motor platforms and boosted Z's. Again R&D of either setup will make the car cost more. You cant spend a ton of money developing something new and then just eat that cost to keep the MSRP down. IF you did you would have to change your name from Nissan to GM and post a 60 billion dollar loss. You also have to take into consideration the manufacturing costs of multiple engines or boosted cars. The current production of the Z is done cheaply. Offering multiple motors increases your cost of production because they wont all be done on the same assembly line. If they are on the same line you have intervals of downtime for re-tooling that increase your labor costs. Unfortunately with todays economy things must be skimped out on in order for Nissan to get the most bang for thier buck with new Z.
I could go on and on but i will stop and just say i love the new Z. A V8 wont happen anytime soon, nor will a boosted Z. But the idea of a 400hp track tuned NISMO for 42-45k is a freaking awesome idea.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
