mchapman

iTrader: (1)

After reading the November 2003 Road and Track which had a comparison of 4 aftermarket 350z performance kits, im not too sure that upgrading the non-brembo brakes are as urgent as one might think, in regards to stopping quickly, check these results:

Its in American numbers.

Kit ______0-60mph___1/4 Mile_____Braking 60mph__Skidpan

Brembo___5.6______14.2@100.8___118 ft ________0.89 g
MotoRex__5.1______13.7@104.6___113 ft_________0.94 g
Stillen____5.3______13.8@104.8___116 ft ________0.89 g
GReddy___5.2______13.4@108.1___119 ft ________0.91 g
Stock_____5.8______14.4@99.7____122 ft ________0.88

Take note to the MotoRex kit, its an NA kit with, Flywheel, Cams, Air intake, STOCK exhaust, the STOCK NON Brembo brakes, and Toyo TS-1s. Yet it achieves the fastest 0-60, and the fastest 60-0. All the others used aftermarket brake combinations. The Toyo tyres played a big role in bringing the 60-0 down but the ability of the standard brakes to stop you quickly is not up for questioning, the only question that might want to be addressed would be them heating up after repeated use, so I thought I might get cross drilled, ventiated, and slotted rotors?

Would this be enough to cool them down?

What else could one do to improve them without replacing everything?

Murray

Moroccan_Mole

iTrader: (5)

sure the difference in stopping distance wont be much when the brakes are cold ... have them run those test again immediatly after the brakes have been through a few hot lap sessions.

mchapman

iTrader: (1)

Thats what I mean, what could one do to reduce the possible heating up issue during track work(***correction repeated stopping *** NOT track work)?

Murray

harryw

Muz, Im be no means an expert,but, I didint think you could successfully drill or slot rotors without it affecting their longevity.

I know the thing to do on bike is the change all the lines rather than the entire set up. The problem from my experience at tracks has not been the rotors heating up nut rather than brake lines expanding when the fluid gets warm thus allowing the brake lever to hit the handlebar. The difference I suppose (other than all the obvious ones) is that all the bikes I've owned have had really good brakes to start with.

Not sure where or even if they're available but perhaps you could use Kevlar brake lines or similar, that's what I've used on my R1.

If you want to change the entire set up you could also use DBA, see www.dba.com.au

As always

H

mchapman

iTrader: (1)

I wouldnt be drilling my existing ones, but purchasing new ones which were designed like that. I think that when discs heat up the pads wear quicker and it also effects their ability to stop. So I think changing them might be on the cards.

Ok thats great feedback, I dont know if you can get kevlar for the Z either, but I know you can get Stainless Steel Braided Lines which im sure would do the job. I know steel lines can reduce the spongy feel from brakes but now I know why.

Thanks
Murray

DavidM

Take note to the MotoRex kit, its an NA kit with, Flywheel, Cams, Air intake, STOCK exhaust, the STOCK NON Brembo brakes, and Toyo TS-1s. Yet it achieves the fastest 0-60, and the fastest 60-0.

What tyres are TS-1s ... are they R-spec, or purely road-tyre. If they are R-spec tyre, then the grip alone will make a different in the launch and braking.

but the ability of the standard brakes to stop you quickly is not up for questioning

Yes and no. It's pretty easy to, for any car, to stop once from 60mph. Even a stock Barina will stop very quickly once from 60mph. The 60-0mph numbers are largely irrelevant here, unless they did at least 10 super-hard 60-0mph stops in a row right before the measurment was taken ... or couple of laps on the track. As someone else mentioned - cold brakes will always stop well ... very few cars out there that can't stop well once. You just need good tyres for that and decent car balance ... the brakes in 99% of cars out there are good enough to be able to stop the car at least once from 60mph in it's optimum distance.

The German mags also do 200-0kph brake test and that one is a little bit more relevant as in that stop you generate a lot of heat and you can see the difference in the distances between cars with really good brakes and not so.

Though, I'm not sayng that the stock brakes ae not good enough ... I have no experience or information on them. I'm just pointing out that this test is not very relenant if braking perfromance is what you're looking at.

...the only question that might want to be addressed would be them heating up after repeated use, so I thought I might get cross drilled, ventiated, and slotted rotors?

Most track guys do not like drilled rotors as they crack easier. You need a very well manufactured rotor to handle that. They all go for slotted rotors and they are ment to discipitate heat pretty well and also 'clean' the pads from the heat/material built up.

Though, generally speaking, to cool brakes you would:
- get bigger rotors
- get bigger calipers
- get better brake pads
- get better brake fuid
- bring more air into them (ie. air-ducts from the front).

Most things are expensive, but the pads and fluid shold be pretty cheap upgrade and make a world of difference. I'd only ge the sloted rotors when you find the stok disks not performing wlll enough or you weak them out.

ps. Have you had any braking prblems/issues so far? If not, then why upgrade?

BLOBYU

I think if you will check out the previous posts about this story, you will find that there are a bunch of unanswered questions. First - it's impossible to get the gains they claim on the motorex car with cams and an intake. Second - Yuichi from Strictly Z says the motorex car wasn't even a U.S. Spec Car. Third - the writer is brand new and not very experienced...certainly not enough to know the difference between a U.S. Spec car and JDM motor. Fourth - they didn't do any long endurance testing. Nobody in that story is probably happy. It makes all of the stuff we do to cars look like a waste of time. My opinion... and others have voiced the same... the story was a waste of time. Read the way the writer talks about each car and then contradicts his own words... The Brembo car is the one that makes me laugh... he says something along the lines of why would any one buy a set of brakes that costs $3500 (or something like that) and at the end of his writeup for the car says " you gotta have it!" Uhhhhh. Okay...know what I mean? The story just doesn't make much sense.

BLOBYU

plus anyone with any sort of SCCA time or track seat time knows the value of better brakes... lines... pads... fluids. Its a given. Personally, slap AP or Brembo on my G and I'll beat anyone's 100-0 time with stock brakes after 4 or 5 stops.

mchapman

iTrader: (1)

Mine isnt a race car, I just want to imrpove the ability of the stock ones to stop repeatedly. Im not debating the importance or proper brakes for racing, that would be less than intelligent.

Murray

mchapman

iTrader: (1)

Originally posted by DavidM

What tyres are TS-1s ... are they R-spec, or purely road-tyre. If they are R-spec tyre, then the grip alone will make a different in the launch and braking.


They are road tyres, Toyo Proxy TS-1. Soft side wall street tyres.


ps. Have you had any braking prblems/issues so far? If not, then why upgrade?

Not at all, I am very satisfied with them, I am satisfied with the entire car, but im still increasing its power, road hold, and hopefully its ability to stop quickly + repeatedly.

Thanks for you feedback.
Murray

lionking

Hey Murray,
I was questioning the necessity for the upgraded brakes when I first got my Z. The stock brakes are great for the street - no probs pullin' up as quick as you want. Different story on the track. Makin' the hairpin at the end of a 200 kph+ strait repeatedly gets a lot of heat goin' through them. Had serious brake fade after a few laps - even shot off the end of the srait on one occasion (pretty scary at nearly 200 kph's and the car doesn't want to slow down.) In the end I had total failure on the back. Not sure what happened but the pads were gone and the rotors were chewed up. Didn't take many laps to get to this point.

IMHO stock brakes are fine for everyday drivin - even a good squirt evey now and then, but are absolutely useless on the track - especially if you want to do any serious lap times. Possibly even dangerous if you don't look after them.

I would love to upgrade the brakes. But for the extra $$$ for the few track sessions I would do is probably not worth it. As Davidm said, value for $$$ might be worth changing the pads though.

LK

mchapman

iTrader: (1)

Originally posted by lionking
Hey Murray,
I was questioning the necessity for the upgraded brakes when I first got my Z. The stock brakes are great for the street - no probs pullin' up as quick as you want. Different story on the track. Makin' the hairpin at the end of a 200 kph+ strait repeatedly gets a lot of heat goin' through them. Had serious brake fade after a few laps - even shot off the end of the srait on one occasion (pretty scary at nearly 200 kph's and the car doesn't want to slow down.) In the end I had total failure on the back. Not sure what happened but the pads were gone and the rotors were chewed up. Didn't take many laps to get to this point.

Hi LK,

Thanks for sharing your experience, thats very useful info.

Your pads were gone and rotors chewed after a few laps. From that what can we deduce?

That we should change, pads and rotors?


I would love to upgrade the brakes. But for the extra $$$ for the few track sessions I would do is probably not worth it. As Davidm said, value for $$$ might be worth changing the pads though.

LK

Im in the same boat!


In summary we've got so far:

Steel Braided Lines
Slotted(no drilled) Rotors (dba kangaroo feet?)
Better brake fluid (Any idea which?)
Better Pads (Any idea which?)

Next i'll add it all up and compare to full new set.


Thanks
Murray

mchapman

iTrader: (1)

What the helll does young writer mean?

The guy writing the story was young?

Murray

lionking

Your pads were gone and rotors chewed after a few laps. From that what can we deduce?

That we should change, pads and rotors?

Still not sure why the backs went. The fronts were ok. We were able to turn the rotors. They were a bit chewed from scraping metal to metal but did not need replacing. I suspect one of the main problems was the intense heat with the stock pads. There seemed to be a bit of smoke and burning smell coming off the brakes. The grinding was a difficult thing to notice when the revs are at 7k, you're goin' 200 and you're wearing a helmet. I didn't start to really feel the grinding 'till right at the end.

After about 10-15 reasonably hard laps I could tell the brakes were being punished and fading. After that I started alternating one fast/one slow lap. That still seemed too much for stock brakes to handle well.

Will definately look at a diffent pad when I change them soon.

Anyone got any suggestions?

Muzz

ZEDD.

I run a 350Z Track doing Super Sprints at Mallala (Adelaide) and have also run the car at Philip Island and Sandown. I bought the Track model because I wanted the better than stock brakes for the track work. Mallala is a vicious circuit for brakes because of the tight corners which require extreme braking before hand.

From the delearship delivered car, the weakest point in the brake system is the standard brake fluid which does not have the ability to withstand the high temperature of this kind of braking. When this boils you get soft peddle and vertually no brakes. The cost of putting in a competition high temperature fluid is $50 plus labour (say another $50). I use Lucas Grand Prix 600 which is a top product which fixed this problem. For road use I dont think you would need to do any more than this unless money is of no concern. I slotted the standard rotors only to avoid a possible problem of brake pad gasses building up between the pad and rotor (cost $170 for 18 slots each side of 4 rotors.

The next improvement from here would be upgrading the pad material on the front. This would be very unnecessary for street use. However it raises the operating temperature significantly where the pads will work and provides more bite during braking. The trade off is they will squeak at very low braking speeds on the road. Cost of Ferodo or Glalfer about $350 a set for the front (10 times better than the Nissan spare parts product at $500.

Note that I have not put in braded brake lines and have acheived stunning brake performance in a constant and punishing environment. Anything more than this on the street is purely pose value or an example of ignorance.

Now the difference here is you have the Touring Model with Nissan calipers, and I never checked these out before I prepurchased in 2002. If they are 4 piston capilers, then follow the procedure for the Brembo's and you will have great braking. 260Z's run this at Mallala with no problems on Nissan brakes. The best place for competition pads is Race Brakes in Sydney and Melbourne.

By the way at Mallala the Porsche Boxter S and Gen III V8 Utes run times slower than me. The Porsche is really very even with the Z in a straight line and in the corners. The Gen III V8 Utes just can match the Z in Braking and handling in the corners even though all three cars run the same tyres. The Gen III suspension is the weak point, as one runs AP Racing brakes and the other Harrop Brakes.

Hope this helps.

Muzz

ZEDD

If your in the category of money is of no importance, give me some for sponsorship based on all the money I just saved you.

Hee Hee

DavidM

From that what can we deduce? That we should change, pads and rotors?

My first 'deduction' would be that you need different/better pads. Pads are usually what destroys the rotots. If you overheat the pads hen they not only change molecular structure (ie. crumble) and are very hard on the disks, but also stop absorbing (and disipitating) heat and hence he disks have to do 2x as much work.

The S2000 with stock pads would destroy the disks in a track session as well if you used the OE pads and drove hard enough. Putting better pads on made the brakes perform flawlesly.

... upgrading the pad material on the front... The trade off is they will squeak at very low braking speeds on the road.

A lot of of competition pads will do it. I would say that it is not a 'low speed' thing, but a 'heat' thing. They squeak when they don't have enough heat in them. In the S2000 I had pads that used to do it but then I found pads that performed just as well, were easier on the rotors and did not sqeak at all. They were RB74 and they will be he 1st thing I'll try on the Zed when I go to the track.

I run a 350Z Track doing Super Sprints at Mallala (Adelaide) and have also run the car at Philip Island and Sandown.

Good to see another person who bought the Zed to do some track work as well. I have not had mine on any tracks yet as the car is still too new, but will do so in a month or two.

What times did you manage at the Island and Sandown? ... I've had the S2000 there before.

ps. What tyres do you use on the track?

mchapman

iTrader: (1)

Hey Muzz,

Thanks for that valuable information, fully appreciate it. Glad to see some constructive responses from the AU guys.

Sponsorship, well now if I had that money im sure I would have gone the brembos to start with , but if I come across enough i'll be sure to send some your way, granted that enought would be a very large amount.

Can I ask where you get them slotted?

Glad to see the Z can kick *** on the track, very glad

Thanks
Murray

KY350

Murry, your standard breaks are more than suitable for street driving. They pull up as well as the Brembos at all speeds. I cannot see a situation where you could overheat the standard breaks by driving aggressively on the street.
However, if you intend to to some serious track work, then changing the fluid and pads will result in better breaking, but the small rotor will heat up quickly and result in break fade. If you're serious about this subject, then go to www.stoptech.com and into their technical section. There you will find a couple of hours reading on all aspects of breaking including a comparison between the standard / Brembo / Stoptech brakes - very good reading.
BTW, I read somewhere that the Z is unusually quite hard on the rear breaks and that might explain why LK's rear wore before the fronts.

KY350

break = brake incase anyone was wondering