tomzz

SCCA trying to penetrate the HPDE market??

A recent news release (see below) from SCCA indicates they are going after the HPDE market in a big way after some successful market tests. I wondered when SCCA would offer something on a road course without the “Race” price tag to create a new base for SCCA membership from that big “Baby Boomer Buy Sports Car” segment. I think linking the PDX and the first layer of “Club Time Trails” to offer the first taste of official road course “competition” excitement is slick. I think they wisely found that Autocross is just not the base maker for SCCA racing. They needed a consumer bridge to span that big gap from AX to Track Racing that might attract large numbers of new members.

Do you think SCCA has a shot at seriously penetrating the HPDE market?? What do the marquee car clubs think about the competition for HPDE by SCCA? Anybody been to a SCCA PDX??


November 21, 2005
SCCA CLUB RACING PDX and TIME TRIALS PROGRAM to EXPAND IN 2006

Performance Driving Experience (PDX) - The PDX is the first level of the program and provides an instructional environment for drivers who want to improve driving skills and increase their enjoyment of driving their street vehicle. PDX is SCCA’s unique version of “track” or “lapping” days.

Club Time Trials – Club Trials is the second level of the Time Trials program. This level combines elements of PDX instruction with the excitement of running against the clock to determine individual class winners. Cars range from street cars to fully prepared race cars.

SinCity350Z

iTrader: (19)

My local region does a few PDXs at Spring Mountain Motorsports Ranch in Pahrump, NV. They share their events with the local PCA and they are run like any other HPDE, except they actually have a real tech inspection and they have very high safety standards. Also this is the only HPDE where I have seen use of a skid pad and control exercises in the beginner groups.

dkmura

iTrader: (64)

This has already been occuring in SCCA regions across the U.S. I've been to races where they ran a PDX as a run group and it not only supplements the overall entry list, it gets people to the track to see what all the excuitment is about. Club Time Trials was actually pioneered and refined by Colorado Region over the past three years. Now it's spread in popularity to the rest of the country and is under the jursidiction of Club Racing. I'd expect it to flourish as a bridge between Solo and road racing competition.

As for the impact on the marque clubs HPDEs, I wonder if the impact will be minimal. The customer for many marque clubs is in it for the camradere, not the competition. I expect many of the people who try the SCCA events will enjoy a bit more diversity (in both people and cars) and have an interest in competing at some stage.

Resolute

iTrader: (2)

I agree with David- the clubs, like the Z car club of CO and BMW car club of CO, are out to have a good time and hone skills without competition and classing. The club runs are also cheaper than the time trial events. Of course, the SCCA PDX and TT have ambulance and fire crews on site, and utilize more safety regs than the club run HPDE's do. I think they will have minimum impact on each other, as not everyone in the clubs will want to pay extra for the safety and competition timing. Those that do will more than likely get their fill of both offerings. If there is a TT program in your area, I suggest you take advantage of it. It's been the best thing I've done with my Z.
Will

tomzz

So the SCCA PDX and Time Trial product is upmarket from Club (BMW/PCA, etc) with greater costs and more car prep requirements?

Interetsing.

Does anybody have examples of PDX costs, Time Trail costs, and car prep requirements for PDX (HPDE equiv)?

The SCCA PDX ads says "just your daily driver and a helmet" and the same for Club Trials??

SinCity350Z

iTrader: (19)

From what I have seen with my local SCCA when they do PDX's is there is no more car prep or price than any other HPDE I have run, they are just a lot stricter with their tech inspections. For example, they will hand check all of the torque on the lug nuts on every car, physically wiggle the battery to see if its secure, check harness mounting points, etc...

Stack

Many SCCA regions have had HPDEs for a long time... as a matter of fact I beleive it has stated in the rules that two SCCA schools must have been completed in order to be eligible for a race license... they may not have been as structured as some club HPDEs, but they have been there. They are 're-marketing' it like you said to get back some of the business the clubs have taken away from them...

I hate to burst your bubble... but SCCA has had time trials around longer than most clubs... only its been called Solo I. We used their rules to start our time trial program in 1999... and added it to the end of an HPDE day of driving... clubs like us should combine our efforts so to speak... make sure everyone is on the same page rules-wise... and have a year-end 'national time trial' somewhere hmmm?

If anyone is running with a club that does not have an ambulance on site... I just can't describe the stupidity in that... and I'm not ashamed to say it. What tracks are even letting clubs run on their facility without an ambulance?... that means there is no insurance being bought either. Talk about taking your life in your own hands.

Tim Mahoney

iTrader: (3)

I tried, I really did! Hope you don't mind a hijack and rant but...

I signed up with a well established regional club for a few track days and maybe a TT (plat it by ear). Right off the bat I was expected to classify my car according to their rule book. Because of my aftermarket sway bars I would get bumped from Street Stock (SS) to Street Touring (ST), no big deal. Problem was my aftermarket brakes would push me up to Street Prepared (SP) class, which requires a roll bar, harness, fire suit, etc.., none of which I'm willing to do. I made this clear to the Registrar and Chief Instructor prior to my 1st day, they both said don't worry about it, we'll work it out in Tech. I signed up for 2 days.

Showed up for my 1st day with this club and got reamed by the Chief Tech for the brakes. I had to spend an hour or so tracking down the Track Steward to sign me off. I went out with an instructor for my 1st session and got "licensed" to run the TT's with that club. Ran the rest of the day solo without incident. Yay.

Showed up for my 2nd day 2 weeks later, it was Groundhog Day all over again. More aggravation and agitation over the brakes. Once again, I had to find the Track Steward to get signed off after getting a bunch of crap from a couple of "authorities". I ran 3 sessions before my blood pressure started to drop, then ANOTHER self appointed authority strolled over and started giving me a hard time about my brakes in the paddock. After a long debate I decided to leave and not go back.

My Gripe is twofold:

1. If they were that concerned about my brakes they should have told me up front and I gladly wouldn't have signed up with them.

2. The logic expressed to me was that a BBK is a performance upgrade, it would make me brake later, be faster, and therefore more dangerous out there . Hence the required roll bar, etc... I disagree!

In fact, I couldn't disagree more! Good brakes are first and foremost a SAFETY enhancement. There's nothing more important to confidence out there than knowing your brakes will work when you want them to. I don't brake LATER because I have better brakes, I brake more CONSISTANTLY. You're going to threshold brake to the limit of your tires, unless your crappy brakes give out on you. IF your crappy brakes give out on you, you are LESS SAFE. I refuse to re-install my crappy brakes and put myself in danger just to satisfy somebody's rule book.

It's really too bad too. I had no problem with staying out of the TT for classification reasons, everyone in ST would protest me and be justified to do so. I just wanted to get a few more track days in with a good group of people. Most everyone there was fast, competent, and courteous on the track. I really enjoyed the participants and would go back if they let me run without all the angst.

If I'm out of line here feel free to correct me. I'm only a duffer but I think my gripe is valid.

Tim Mahoney

iTrader: (3)

BMWCCA requires an "Advanced Driving Skills School" be attended before they let you out on the track. It consists of a "chalk talk", skid pad work (over/understeering exercises), avoidance and braking exercises, and an autocross to finish off the day. This is a good way to weed out those who don't know they really can't drive. I know of at least one person who backed off because he realized he just didn't "get it". Their Tech is "pretty real" too.

Stack

Were they requiring the fire suit, roll bar etc for the HPDE? We simplify this by mandating the roll bar and harnesses for our time trial only, not the HPDE (except in convertibles). Our feeling is that its the competition aspect is what increases the risks more than anything (you know, that whole red-mist, 11/10ths stuff.)

<snipped>

Can't argue with that logic lol

In this case, I agree with you wholeheartedly... I think there are some grey areas with this type of rules rationalization - which I've discussed many times on other threads and I won't re-hash it here (and we don't mandate it anyway except for during our time trial... PM me if you want me to elaborate... and I am an event steward, not just a self-proclaimed event authority)

You need to make your way down south and run with us at VIR in the spring (though without a roll bar, you'll miss out on the time trial) but as far as running with a good group of people without the angst... I think we fit that bill.

SinCity350Z

iTrader: (19)

Sadly we don't see many BMWCCA events here. From what you describe them as thought they sound a lot like our local SCCA/PCA events.

Stack

We tried doing 'exercises' for our green group one year. Maybe we weren't organized enough, but all we got were complaints. It wasted a full driving session for the new guys, and really didn't do anything to build their knowledge or confidence for track driving. Done right, skidpad work can be invaluable... but similarly, when groups are seperated by experience level, and good instructors are recruited and invited, and you have good classroom instructors, the first session for our newbies serves the same purpose. The first half of the session is run under 'yellow' so no worries about passing or being passed... the instructor can take his/her time to mke sure the driver is comfortable, can start teaching the line... and most importantly, can bring the student along at his/her own pace. They aren't thrown to the wolves so-to-speak.

The delima clubs get in to, is trying to be all things for all people. Some organizations have taken this to the extreme. HPDE, Time Trials, wheel-to-wheel racing all crammed into one day or weekend... thats all well and good, but compromises have to be made, and they come in three forms: track time, competition, and safety.

To get the maximum amount of track time, you must sacrifice competition. Ideally there would be 4 rotations of three or four student run groups each day... 25 minute sessions is usually plenty with some rest, food, and classroom sessions in between. You can gain more track time by sacrificing some safety as well... throw out the seperate run groups based on experience - let it be open track... an 8-hour free-for-all.

To get maximum safety, you have to sacrifice competition and track time. Example: Groups seperated by experience level AND speed potential... there's not racing or time trialing because its too dangerous, but car will require roll-over protection, again, cause driving on track is dangerous. Run groups are 15 minutes so no one gets fatigued... Cars are provided as well as fire suits, and a day will cost you upwards of $1000 - but it will be the safest event you've ever participated in... oh... did I mention half your track time will be in the passenger seat? BUT you get a GREAT dinner afterwards!

To get maximum track time and competition, you have to throw safety out the window and hope dumb luck keeps everyone safe (and of course the waivers that everyone signed when they came in... you hope.) Example: Lets throw all the drivers together into two groups based on horsepower, regardless of experience level. Any newbies have the option of an instructor in the car... but its first-come-first-served. As long as drivers have turned in their 'self-tech' on their cars, and shown a helmet with no visible cracks, they are good-to-go. If you pay a little extra, we'll let you participate in the time trial. Your run group is your practice session, and times during these sessions will be used to grid you for the time trial... which, by the way, will be during the high-horsepower groups after lunch. Did I mention the flagging crew are volunteers cause it was too expensive for the club to pay proffesionals? Even though your entry fee was almost $300 for one day when you factor in your HPDE fee and your time trial fee... Oh yeah, I almost forgot... there are four classes of race cars that will be on track from 11:00 to 12:00 and another four on track from 4:00 to 5:00. These cars will be 'practicing' during the HPDE run groups too. Did I mention you can pass anywhere you want? Yep! woo HOO!!

Sorry about this little personal diatribe... I am singling out no particular group, these are homologations of various groups I've read about, and heard about... I admit I've nver run with any groups like these, and if you choose to, I'm not gonna stop you.

OK... stepping down from my soapbox... who's next?

Tim Mahoney

iTrader: (3)

Yes they were, if I was to keep my good brakes on the car. I mis-quoted the SP rules yesterday when I said a roll bar & harness were required - it's the harness only. Roll bars are encouraged but not required. They have SS and ST classes that don't require harness or roll bars. Neither class allows upgraded brakes.

They are a competition oriented club who rents the track for 2 day events. This usually covers a Saturday and/or Sunday, which is why I was interested. The HPDE is apparently considered practice day for the TT, so all the rules apply and the Tech sticker may be good for both days (can't confirm that though).

The Track Steward agreed with me completely too. Problem was he didn't lean on the Chief Tech (CT) my 1st day, he just said don't worry about it, so I didn't. The 2nd day CT was really steaming. He ran across the paddock and got all grisly about the brakes, tried to kick me out on the spot. I'm sure he thought I was thumbing my nose at his authority, probably justified since I went over his head last time. I had to repeat the process and requested the Steward actually straighten the guy out while I witnessed it. CT then came over and reluctantly gave me his blessing. The other "self appointed authority" was a former Chief Steward in the club who decided to "help out by keeping an eye on things". He agreed with CT, so I guess I exposed a philosophical division in the ranks.

In the end it wasn't worth fighting city hall just to get in a track day, it took all the enjoyment out of the event. It seems the moral of the story is you have to build specifically to the rules of the club you run with.


Thanks Stack, I appreciate the invitation! On a side note, I got a close up view of the SSGT class champ executing an 80 mph spin right in front of me at the front straight chicane entrance. We chuckled about it in the paddock, and he told me about his end over end incident at Limerock - with no roll bar - and he walked away unhurt. His car? A 350Z!

Tim Mahoney

iTrader: (3)

The BMW club session was excellent. Spending a day skidding around in 2nd gear was a great way to re-awake some old skills and whet my appetite for the track. They ran 2 instruction groups and had a portable sprinkler system that wetted down 2 skid pad area's. After some over/understeer excercises they connected the 2 together for a figure 8 sliding session, it was great practice and in my opinion well worth modeling a program on.

Sounds like you've just about got it covered! I think the PCA and BMWCCA have been at this a long time and have refined their programs to make them very safe and user freindly, Yahoos are not tolerated. That said, some of the newer guys (like SCDA here in New England, and sounds like you too) do a great job as well.

del105

iTrader: (4)

I don't understand did they just take solo1 and change it's name to PDX? Seriously how is this different than what solo1 was?

Stack

No, they changed SOLO I to SCCA Time Trial ... but if you read the rules (a daunting task, I know) it sounds the same to me. Maybe PDX is a general term for any on-track SCCA activity? Anyway... here's the 2005 SCCA Time Trial rules... which, btw, includes the hillclimbs: http://www.scca.org/_Filelibrary/File/05-SCCA-TTR.pdf

mpowers

iTrader: (7)

Haveing ran with 3 groups, SCCA, Seat-Time and the Triangle Z club. I can attest to the fact that the Triangle Z club put on a symphony of organized car fun! I would give them a 9 out of 10 points.
Instructors seem to be well informed.
Class room was worth attending.
Seat time was fair for the value.
Information was on hand when I arrived (like the time schedule for the day).
Offer a TT program.
And there was good food and fellowship.
Will go back for more!

Seat-Time is what it says it is. For this they would get a 6.5..
Instructor are ok not horrible but not as well versed as what the Z club dug up.
Class room? But I do have to say the main organizers would spend time with each person, so more one-on-one.
Seat time is a lot. I have been to two of their events and averaged 130 minutes between them. Generally they run three groups in 20 min rotations.
No TT program.
And there is good food and fellowship.
Inexpensive.
Yes I will be going again!

SCCA a national organization for the sports car enthusiast. But have lost touch with what the enthusiast wants. I would give them a 3.

First and fore most- Rules are a pain in the a$$ . Most people want to just drive their cars on the track regardless of what they put on or in them. They don't need a classing for a track day.

You could be asked to work. This one kills me. I live next to Roebling Road which is owned by the SCCA. Now last year I was the chair for solo2 in the area and we discussed putting on a track day at Roebling Road. It never happened due they wanted the drivers to work when not running and they wanted to charge the same as other groups that all ready run there.

To many "God" like people around these events . I think this is due to the fact most of the workers are volunteers. But you need them so you put up with them.

From my understanding the SCCA started this track day program do to the fact they had no progression from solo1 to solo2. Either you were in or out with solo2. Since most people are not inclined to install the required hard ware for solo2 to find out if they liked it or not.

SCCA is losing participation to other groups that are more rewarding. I wonder why? Unless they change the program will fail.
And probably will not renew my membership this year.

Oh and I want an 8 hour free for all! j/k

Resolute

iTrader: (2)

If anyone is running with a club that does not have an ambulance on site... I just can't describe the stupidity in that... and I'm not ashamed to say it. What tracks are even letting clubs run on their facility without an ambulance?... that means there is no insurance being bought either. Talk about taking your life in your own hands.[/QUOTE]
Neither the ZCCC or the BMWCCC have ambulance services on site. They usually have volunter fire crew, and that's about it.

The club events are fun and their HPDE's usually have instruction for beginners, and a good set of parade laps to show the line. Run groups are broken up by experience and are adjusted throughout the day to help keep them even. They typically run from 35 to 60 dollars a day, and when not running in a heat, you would work a corner.
The regional TimeTrials, are much better equipped for safety, and have the added benefit of timing. The classes are strictly governed, as there is competition, and rules are strictly enforced. It is not a "learning" environment, but a competitive one. They have, typically, a slower run group for new comers and are generally very friendly to help assist beginners in the program, but this is usually done in place of corner work and they don't put an emphasis on times, but rather instruction. So it can feel like you are outside of the main group your first time. The costs are usually around $100 a day.
I think after a couple of HPDE's, all that is required to compete in the TimeTrials here, the TT program is a great step up, as you can really see how you compare against previous runs and other drivers in the same class. The informaion learned from the timing has been the greatest tool to develop skill, and that makes the increased cost and hassle of technical regs worth it.
Will

Tim Mahoney

iTrader: (3)

Every track event I've attended, regardless of the organizer, has had an ambulance on site. I would have assumed that was required by the track insurance policy if not the the club.

Stack

This is a pretty serious matter... if you're talking about autocross, or evolution schools, things done in parking lots or airport runways, then I could see it... but if you're talking about road-course racectracks, whether competitive or not, unless the cars are paced to something less than 60mph, the track AND insurance companies REQUIRE ambulance service to be on hand.

As a matter of fact... if the BMWCCC is complying with BMWCCA rules, they are most definately requirted to have ambulance service on site.

Maybe its different in CO as far as insurance requirments... but I wouldn't drive on track without some form of EMS available... even if its just basic EMS (we have Advanced Life Support at ours)