PBLRacing

iTrader: (1)

I've decided to take a break from Spec Miata racing for the year (politics of it all is justs driving me crazy) and was looking at something else to keep my competitive juices running. To that end is anyone here familiar with the NASA Time Trial Rules? I am thinking about trying that out with my Z.

I have a '06 Touring so I think my base class is TTC and I have 19 points of 'mods' before I would get bumped into TTB. I have already added a cat-back exhaust and change the plenum so I used a few points (4 I think). I would like to save at least 2 points for a brake upgrade (once again I think that is the right # of points).

Aside from that I don't have enough knowledge of the Z to determine what will give me the most bang for the bucks (or points in this case). Looking at the rules I guess that to stay in TTC I would have to limit what I do to the following items:

R Compound Tires
Shocks (cheaper ones as the expensive ones are too many points)
Springs
Sway bars & end links
Front Control Arms for Camber
Intake
BBK

So if you know the TT rules I will solicit any feeback you can give me, but if you don't then let me know what you think the high impact upgrades are on a Z.

Now please don't spend a lot of time telling me I can't be competitive in TTC with a 350Z or that if I do this or that I could be real competitive in TTB etc.. Not that I don't appreciate that type of input but honestly based on the times that I have seen in the NASA-SE results I already run faster with my car as it is now (OEM tires, Carbotech pads and ATE fluid) and I am not really concerned with winning. Instead I am using the TTC class as a way to limit the amount I end up spending on the car and seeing what I can do with it in that class.

Thanks for any advice you have.

Gary Jenkins

tmak26b

Get some race tires, better than any mods you will do. THe average time I picked up was 3 sec on a 1.5 miles course

C Ray Z

iTrader: (2)

daveh has the most experience with this class. I also run it but I am old and slow so I don't count.

He just moved back from winning TTB last year to TTC. He can add but springs shocks front camber 255 x 17 race rubber like Toyo RA1's. He has the Unitech suspension and has done quite well. Engine mods are not worth the points and neither is a cat back exhaust. Stick to suspension and tires or maybe a 3.9 rear gear and LSD rear.

Good luck.

daveh

iTrader: (9)

I ran TTB last year and did quite well, but now that the series is developing and gaining popularity, it is becoming more of a playground for fully prepped race cars. I made the decision to drop down to TTC for this season because I did not see the Z being competitive against a turbo car for example, that could easily get 80 more hp than the Z within the class rules. Little did I know that TTC would also become quite fast. Quite honestly, I'm getting destroyed this year by race cars that weigh close to 1000 lbs less than me. I'm still having fun in my daily driven 'near stock' car though.

To answer your question about which class to join, it really depends on your goals. My goal was to keep my car in street trim, not spend a lot of money, and keep a smile on my face. I sold all of the parts that pushed me over the edge to TTB and put that money into a year's supply of tires and brakes. I truly believe that the things that make a Z fast are suspension/handling items. Don’t waste your time on power mods. The TTB points I had like exhaust, intake, unichip really didn't equate to much in terms of lap times - so off they went. I also downsized my tires and ditched the tire trailer. I am having a much better time this year by just showing up and driving (while watching CRayZ and others work up a sweat while changing their tires and unloading race cars off of trailers). I've still got some work to do to dial her in with the less sticky tires - I'm on my 3rd spring combo and my diff is in pieces in the garage right now while I change the lockup, but to me that's all part of the fun.

Your comment about politics will certainly apply to NASA TT. Your first step will be to hire a team of lawyers to interpret the rules. I'm still on the fence as to weather or not the Z can be competitive with the current rules at the national level. I can think of a hand full of cars that I could build that would be faster than the Z, but since I’m out for fun the Z works just fine.
Sorry for the long winded answer, PM me if you have any specific questions.

PBLRacing

iTrader: (1)

Thanks for the responses.

Dave - I will hit you up with a PM on specifics but give some thoughts here as well. I'm not really concerned with being competitive on a National basis. I just want to have fun making my car the best it can be. Like you, I use my car as a daily driver and won't go over the top to make it better on the track.

I plan to stick to TTC and just improve on my car as it is now. I won't take off my exhaust because I love the way it sounds. My intent won't be to build the fastest TTC 350Z in America but instead to make my 350Z as fast as it can be. Like I always tell my students...It isn't how fast your car is, it is how fast can you drive your car.

However even with the exhaust it looks like there are several changes I can make that will allow me to drive keep the car fun on the daily commute and still perform better on the track.

My first thoughts are to upgrade the brakes and throw on some Toyos. Any thoughts on the tire size (I will run 17" cause they are cheaper). Looks like there is some point benefit from running narrower tires, but I can't seem to understand how that would apply if I run smaller tires up front.

daveh

iTrader: (9)

I've also got 17" wheels and went from 275's to 255's this year. The 255's give you a free final drive of sorts with their shorter sidewall. If you run staggared, you will be charged for the larger of the tire sizes. I think this rule should be re-visited personally.
The other big argument that I've made for our cars is that we have to get front control arms to adjust camber which costs us 4 points, while camber is free for most other cars because camber plates are free. I did win one battle in that I only take 1 point for the upgraded LSD rather than 3 for replacement.
You can upgrade springs, shocks, sways, brakes, lsd and stay in TTC.

edit: We could also drop 200lbs for free too..

Stack

Politics? In NASA? Noooo... say it ain't so!

I thought that was the whole POINT of NASA!

FWIW... we have a TT series of our own, and you wanna talk about Laid Back!

$30 on top of our normal DE fees... we'll be at Roebling in June, CMP in August, and Rockingham in October. Although, for ours, we require roll bars (unlike NASA ), so you'd have to drive the SM

PBLRacing

iTrader: (1)

Maybe I'm looking for a new kind of politics.

MSR350Z

Last year I got suckered into being the time trials director for NASA Texas. No politics, we are really laid back, I mean really. We get maybe 5 guys running an event and I know you guys get over 40.

I have wondered is the difference The People's Republic of California (which I am a native son) attitudes towards things and the good ole boys of Texas attitudes?

Or what?

MoodDude

Gary,
And you where trying to convince me to get a Spec Miata when we where at VIR?
To make the Z more competitive, you need to sell your 06 Touring and get an 05 base Z since it is much lighter (around 300# lighter and the 287 motor has more low end torque the the rev-up motor, plus the money you would get out of the deal will more than pay for the mods, and than put a stock Limited slip diff in the car and it would not modify any points). Both cars are TTC and you can add up to 20 points of modifications. But in either case I would do the following:

Than just put some R compounds (wear rating > 100, like Toyo RA-1's) +5 with 255's all the way around (this is what TTC are allowed), adjustable front A-Arms +4, Koni's +3, and adjustable Sway bars +2. This adds up to 14 points.

Than for the plenum spacer +2 and the cat back exhaust +1. This gives you only 3 points that will total 17 points from the suspension above. For the other two points I would than look at wieght reduction.

Things that don't cost any points that you should do:
-Lightwieght battery
-Final Drive Ratio (have the pinion and crown gears cryo-rem treated too, the finishing will give you another 5 to 7 rwhp for a cost of $200 and not cost you any points and the gears will last longer!) If you have a limited budget, I would sell your spacer and exhaust, and just do this for the most effective rw torque gains!
-Air filter upgrade
-Lightwieght flywheel/clutch
-Brakes

All the rules are here:
http://www.nasaproracing.com/rules/Time-Trial-Rules.pdf

PBLRacing

iTrader: (1)

Mike,

Still think you should spend some time in a Miata. Driving a low hp momentum car really teaches you how to get around a track. Randy Pobst even agrees with me based on his article this month in SportsCar and he can drive anything he wants.

I know there are bunch of things I 'should' do to be faster in TTC, but I really like my car. Leather seats, great radio, cruise control, power seats..... I am a bit spoiled and dont' want to give that stuff up. Anyway, by looking at the NASA-SE TTC times, I have already gone faster in my Z as it is now than the current TTC guys are running. After doing some checking there just aren't many TT guys running in the SE yet, so not as much competition as I would like to have.

By the way, how is the engine work coming? When do you plan to 'return'?

tmak26b

What is a good time at VIR Full?

MSR350Z

BINGO!!!!! I agree 120%.

The first advice I got from the chief instructor at the first HPDE event I went to was to get a Miata or some other low hp momentum car and learn to drive it. It took me two years to do it and I should have done it sooner.

When I drive one of the Miatas or the Mini Cooper and I missed the apex by a little bit or don't brake enought or over brake. It slows me down and it is in my face right away.

PBLRacing

iTrader: (1)

I've never driven my Z there but I can do 2:20 to 2:21's in my Spec Miata (SM Track record is 2:18). The T2 track record is a 2:12.6. So my guess is that a good lap in a basically stock 350Z with race tires should be sub 2:19. Do some suspension upgrades and I'd look for 2:15.

Of course I am guessing.....

While we are talking VIR I've got to brag on myself. Take a look at the bottom of these results http://www.mylaps.com/results/newRes...4&highlight=14 It is my one claim to fame.

MoodDude

I agree with you that it would help me to drive a low hp car like the Miata. Yet, concentrating on my engine right now and working with a pro race team really has eaten up all my time.

Anyway, get the suspension modifications I mentioned and if you don't want to lighten up the car, than look at getting wider tires or sticker tires (V710's come to mind) for the extra points you have left over.
For A-Arms - buy the 350EVO as they are the only properly designed A-Arm I have seen.
Sways - buy the Hotchkis as they are lighter than stock and they are adjustable.
End-links - I won't even buy these right now since the stock ones use a spherical bearing on them already and unless you are looking to shift your corner wieghts can't really see the need for them until you go with coilovers.

The different final drive ratio can still be driven on the street, but will change your fuel mileage. But, will get you more torque, and we all know that horsepower sells cars - torque wins races.

daveh

iTrader: (9)

Just to clarify, even if you buy a performance model and 'upgrade' the lsd to a clutch type, it will still cost you 1 pt. This year I petitioned to have the same point assessed to my base model rather than the 3 points they used to charge for 'installing' an lsd.
On top of what you suggested, I would also say that brakes (at least front bbk) is a necessity for 2 pts (and for safety). I would also say that springs are well worth the 2 pts they are charged. Anything exhaust or hp rated is not worth the points. Even if you gained 10hp from your mods, that wouldn't really be worth much in lap times (certainly not as much as the points used in suspension, brakes, lsd etc)
On a side note, if you run the 255's you essentially get a free final drive from the lower aspect ratio. In fact, I am in the process of rebuilding my differential and am not changing my final drive becasue the shorter tires give me perfect gearing for my tracks.

I like PBLracing's attitude of run what you brung though. If you really want to be competative in California, you need to run a fully prepared race car so I've given up on being a serious competitor.
Next year, I am going to propose to the officials that you should get points back for running over the suggested weight of the car. Us folks in street cars just do not have the option of stripping out 100lbs.

tmak26b

Didn't Car and Driver do 2:12? Are we really bad drivers or they have a Z that is on juice?

PBLRacing

iTrader: (1)

I'm basing the times based on the T2 track record. If a really good driver with a T2 prepped 350Z can only do 2:12 - 2:13 running 10/10ths, then I would say that you or I in our street cars should think that a 2:18 or so is a "good" time (there is a difference between good and fast).

tmak26b

I guess that's why we are amatures and those guys are pros Damn I need a new job.

Or unless the 300HP cars are really that much faster. I ran a 2:19 on a 99.5% stock car (just pads and worn azenis) on my first time at the track in 35F weather. Let's say I get my act together in perfect condition, I still dont think I can come anywhere close to the C&D 2:12 time. I suck

PBLRacing

iTrader: (1)

I'd say that your time with that setup would be moving past 'good' into the 'fast' category. I just don't think that you can get an off the showroom floor Z down to 2:12 at VIR. I could be wrong but that seems out of line with the T2 times.

Does anyone have a link to the C&D test?