HPDE and insurance
01-23-2009, 12:06 PM
#105
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If you wreck your car with all the goodies on it be sure to buy it back if its declared a total. That way you can put the goodies on the new car or part everything out and try to get even financially. If you list all the goodies to your insurance carrier they will probably decide that you are a bad risk because you race the car either on the track or street.
01-23-2009, 09:04 PM
#106
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insurance issues
so i was wondering if anyone knew how to insure a car with an extensive amount of work done to it. im building my car for the track, my insurance company will only cover the blue book of the car. ive already invested about 20000 into the car. im getting it cages, harnessed, seats, nets and so on. i have to have full coverage for the loan. where do i get insurance for this, need help. thanks
First and foremost, you have to understand what you are looking for. As Danisr1, I too am an agent in CA. I worked 10 years in claims with half of that being in a Fraud unit (SIU, Special Investigation Unit). You will soon learn that there is much to know about this complicated issue and each state is different. However, most all carriers don't cover items (listed as special equipment or not) that enhances the performance and/or horsepower of a vehicle, nor do they cover items that could be/are manufactured for use in a competition for speed. That being said, let me try to help.
You noted that you are getting "cages, harnessed, seats, nets and so on." Now you have to know that the underwriters are not stupid and some of them even track their personal cars. So your basic carriers are not going to want to cover this risk. Their rates are not filed based on this kind of situation and they are not equipted to evaluate that kind of exposure. Since you have a loan on the car, I suggest you don't attack it from that angle or you may get yourself cancelled under the substantial increase in hazard clause most carriers have.
I would also not use a specialty company. They exist to insure cars that are collectible and held to higher standards/values. Some limit miles, but do consider cars with modifications. However, most of those cars are older and for show. They expressly don't cover on track events.
There are a few outfits that to offer HPDE coverages. Most have strict rules and require approval before allowing the coverage. Most all require a right seat instructor. Most of the coverage is written through brokers and coverage is issued through Lloyds of London. K and K insurance brokers are supposed to be offering a on track crash policy, but I have yet to see it.
Now to contradict myself, I have seen 2 cases where the insured did go off track and either backed their car in to a hill or rolled the car and it was covered. This happened because there was no on track or "temporary racing surface" exclusion. There was no timing or prize money, so they could not say it was a prearranged contest for speed. And since it was a HPDE with instruction (not an open track day), it was classified as a driving school. Hence, not a racing school, so their was coverage.
So back to your question and concern, what if someone hits you on the street. Well, if it there fault and you live in a liability State (not a no fault State) you are in luck. Your policy may not cover everything, but the person who hit you, and is presumably responsible for the loss, is going to be held liable for the damages he or she caused to your property and there are no restrictions on what they won't cover; except things that are illegal to begin with.
I am still researching this very topic and will post my findings when I am finished. I am 3 months in to it and can see there is a long road ahead.
Oh, and whomever said Progressive is their carrier....WARNING! I am appointed by them and they have adapted language in their new policy forms that exclude coverage at or on either a permenant or temporary racing facility and/or curcit. I still think there are flaws in their clause, but time will tell.
Feel free to ask any questions if you need help and I will do my best to get you the right information, not just the guess work you see sometimes. Oh, Danisr1 will chime in too. He is also an insurance agent and a respected member. His input has always been spot on for his area. And Stack is right, get in touch with a good broker/agent who knows this special type of coverage.
Last edited by Fooshe; 01-23-2009 at 09:07 PM.
01-24-2009, 04:24 AM
#107
Banned
There's a specific program for on-track drving events from WSIB Insurance (www.WSIBInsurance.com). We insure our track car with them.
Feff
Feff
01-26-2009, 07:02 PM
#108
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I actually just found an on track crash program for HPDE's that looks like it is very promissing. It is a yearly policy and the minimum premium is $1,500. Looking in to the details now. More to follow.
01-27-2009, 08:42 AM
#110
Ah, I love these questions.
First and foremost, you have to understand what you are looking for. As Danisr1, I too am an agent in CA. I worked 10 years in claims with half of that being in a Fraud unit (SIU, Special Investigation Unit). You will soon learn that there is much to know about this complicated issue and each state is different. However, most all carriers don't cover items (listed as special equipment or not) that enhances the performance and/or horsepower of a vehicle, nor do they cover items that could be/are manufactured for use in a competition for speed. That being said, let me try to help.
You noted that you are getting "cages, harnessed, seats, nets and so on." Now you have to know that the underwriters are not stupid and some of them even track their personal cars. So your basic carriers are not going to want to cover this risk. Their rates are not filed based on this kind of situation and they are not equipted to evaluate that kind of exposure. Since you have a loan on the car, I suggest you don't attack it from that angle or you may get yourself cancelled under the substantial increase in hazard clause most carriers have.
I would also not use a specialty company. They exist to insure cars that are collectible and held to higher standards/values. Some limit miles, but do consider cars with modifications. However, most of those cars are older and for show. They expressly don't cover on track events.
There are a few outfits that to offer HPDE coverages. Most have strict rules and require approval before allowing the coverage. Most all require a right seat instructor. Most of the coverage is written through brokers and coverage is issued through Lloyds of London. K and K insurance brokers are supposed to be offering a on track crash policy, but I have yet to see it.
Now to contradict myself, I have seen 2 cases where the insured did go off track and either backed their car in to a hill or rolled the car and it was covered. This happened because there was no on track or "temporary racing surface" exclusion. There was no timing or prize money, so they could not say it was a prearranged contest for speed. And since it was a HPDE with instruction (not an open track day), it was classified as a driving school. Hence, not a racing school, so their was coverage.
So back to your question and concern, what if someone hits you on the street. Well, if it there fault and you live in a liability State (not a no fault State) you are in luck. Your policy may not cover everything, but the person who hit you, and is presumably responsible for the loss, is going to be held liable for the damages he or she caused to your property and there are no restrictions on what they won't cover; except things that are illegal to begin with.
I am still researching this very topic and will post my findings when I am finished. I am 3 months in to it and can see there is a long road ahead.
Oh, and whomever said Progressive is their carrier....WARNING! I am appointed by them and they have adapted language in their new policy forms that exclude coverage at or on either a permenant or temporary racing facility and/or curcit. I still think there are flaws in their clause, but time will tell.
Feel free to ask any questions if you need help and I will do my best to get you the right information, not just the guess work you see sometimes. Oh, Danisr1 will chime in too. He is also an insurance agent and a respected member. His input has always been spot on for his area. And Stack is right, get in touch with a good broker/agent who knows this special type of coverage.
First and foremost, you have to understand what you are looking for. As Danisr1, I too am an agent in CA. I worked 10 years in claims with half of that being in a Fraud unit (SIU, Special Investigation Unit). You will soon learn that there is much to know about this complicated issue and each state is different. However, most all carriers don't cover items (listed as special equipment or not) that enhances the performance and/or horsepower of a vehicle, nor do they cover items that could be/are manufactured for use in a competition for speed. That being said, let me try to help.
You noted that you are getting "cages, harnessed, seats, nets and so on." Now you have to know that the underwriters are not stupid and some of them even track their personal cars. So your basic carriers are not going to want to cover this risk. Their rates are not filed based on this kind of situation and they are not equipted to evaluate that kind of exposure. Since you have a loan on the car, I suggest you don't attack it from that angle or you may get yourself cancelled under the substantial increase in hazard clause most carriers have.
I would also not use a specialty company. They exist to insure cars that are collectible and held to higher standards/values. Some limit miles, but do consider cars with modifications. However, most of those cars are older and for show. They expressly don't cover on track events.
There are a few outfits that to offer HPDE coverages. Most have strict rules and require approval before allowing the coverage. Most all require a right seat instructor. Most of the coverage is written through brokers and coverage is issued through Lloyds of London. K and K insurance brokers are supposed to be offering a on track crash policy, but I have yet to see it.
Now to contradict myself, I have seen 2 cases where the insured did go off track and either backed their car in to a hill or rolled the car and it was covered. This happened because there was no on track or "temporary racing surface" exclusion. There was no timing or prize money, so they could not say it was a prearranged contest for speed. And since it was a HPDE with instruction (not an open track day), it was classified as a driving school. Hence, not a racing school, so their was coverage.
So back to your question and concern, what if someone hits you on the street. Well, if it there fault and you live in a liability State (not a no fault State) you are in luck. Your policy may not cover everything, but the person who hit you, and is presumably responsible for the loss, is going to be held liable for the damages he or she caused to your property and there are no restrictions on what they won't cover; except things that are illegal to begin with.
I am still researching this very topic and will post my findings when I am finished. I am 3 months in to it and can see there is a long road ahead.
Oh, and whomever said Progressive is their carrier....WARNING! I am appointed by them and they have adapted language in their new policy forms that exclude coverage at or on either a permenant or temporary racing facility and/or curcit. I still think there are flaws in their clause, but time will tell.
Feel free to ask any questions if you need help and I will do my best to get you the right information, not just the guess work you see sometimes. Oh, Danisr1 will chime in too. He is also an insurance agent and a respected member. His input has always been spot on for his area. And Stack is right, get in touch with a good broker/agent who knows this special type of coverage.
good post
01-27-2009, 09:12 AM
#111
2nd on the WSIB: http://wsibinsurance.com/
"The WSIB premium is 3 percent of the car’s value. The deductible is $2,500, or 4 percent of the car’s value, whichever is greater."
"The WSIB premium is 3 percent of the car’s value. The deductible is $2,500, or 4 percent of the car’s value, whichever is greater."
01-27-2009, 09:21 AM
#112
Ah, I love these questions.
First and foremost, you have to understand what you are looking for. As Danisr1, I too am an agent in CA. I worked 10 years in claims with half of that being in a Fraud unit (SIU, Special Investigation Unit). You will soon learn that there is much to know about this complicated issue and each state is different. However, most all carriers don't cover items (listed as special equipment or not) that enhances the performance and/or horsepower of a vehicle, nor do they cover items that could be/are manufactured for use in a competition for speed. That being said, let me try to help.
You noted that you are getting "cages, harnessed, seats, nets and so on." Now you have to know that the underwriters are not stupid and some of them even track their personal cars. So your basic carriers are not going to want to cover this risk. Their rates are not filed based on this kind of situation and they are not equipted to evaluate that kind of exposure. Since you have a loan on the car, I suggest you don't attack it from that angle or you may get yourself cancelled under the substantial increase in hazard clause most carriers have.
I would also not use a specialty company. They exist to insure cars that are collectible and held to higher standards/values. Some limit miles, but do consider cars with modifications. However, most of those cars are older and for show. They expressly don't cover on track events.
There are a few outfits that to offer HPDE coverages. Most have strict rules and require approval before allowing the coverage. Most all require a right seat instructor. Most of the coverage is written through brokers and coverage is issued through Lloyds of London. K and K insurance brokers are supposed to be offering a on track crash policy, but I have yet to see it.
Now to contradict myself, I have seen 2 cases where the insured did go off track and either backed their car in to a hill or rolled the car and it was covered. This happened because there was no on track or "temporary racing surface" exclusion. There was no timing or prize money, so they could not say it was a prearranged contest for speed. And since it was a HPDE with instruction (not an open track day), it was classified as a driving school. Hence, not a racing school, so their was coverage.
So back to your question and concern, what if someone hits you on the street. Well, if it there fault and you live in a liability State (not a no fault State) you are in luck. Your policy may not cover everything, but the person who hit you, and is presumably responsible for the loss, is going to be held liable for the damages he or she caused to your property and there are no restrictions on what they won't cover; except things that are illegal to begin with.
I am still researching this very topic and will post my findings when I am finished. I am 3 months in to it and can see there is a long road ahead.
Oh, and whomever said Progressive is their carrier....WARNING! I am appointed by them and they have adapted language in their new policy forms that exclude coverage at or on either a permenant or temporary racing facility and/or curcit. I still think there are flaws in their clause, but time will tell.
Feel free to ask any questions if you need help and I will do my best to get you the right information, not just the guess work you see sometimes. Oh, Danisr1 will chime in too. He is also an insurance agent and a respected member. His input has always been spot on for his area. And Stack is right, get in touch with a good broker/agent who knows this special type of coverage.
First and foremost, you have to understand what you are looking for. As Danisr1, I too am an agent in CA. I worked 10 years in claims with half of that being in a Fraud unit (SIU, Special Investigation Unit). You will soon learn that there is much to know about this complicated issue and each state is different. However, most all carriers don't cover items (listed as special equipment or not) that enhances the performance and/or horsepower of a vehicle, nor do they cover items that could be/are manufactured for use in a competition for speed. That being said, let me try to help.
You noted that you are getting "cages, harnessed, seats, nets and so on." Now you have to know that the underwriters are not stupid and some of them even track their personal cars. So your basic carriers are not going to want to cover this risk. Their rates are not filed based on this kind of situation and they are not equipted to evaluate that kind of exposure. Since you have a loan on the car, I suggest you don't attack it from that angle or you may get yourself cancelled under the substantial increase in hazard clause most carriers have.
I would also not use a specialty company. They exist to insure cars that are collectible and held to higher standards/values. Some limit miles, but do consider cars with modifications. However, most of those cars are older and for show. They expressly don't cover on track events.
There are a few outfits that to offer HPDE coverages. Most have strict rules and require approval before allowing the coverage. Most all require a right seat instructor. Most of the coverage is written through brokers and coverage is issued through Lloyds of London. K and K insurance brokers are supposed to be offering a on track crash policy, but I have yet to see it.
Now to contradict myself, I have seen 2 cases where the insured did go off track and either backed their car in to a hill or rolled the car and it was covered. This happened because there was no on track or "temporary racing surface" exclusion. There was no timing or prize money, so they could not say it was a prearranged contest for speed. And since it was a HPDE with instruction (not an open track day), it was classified as a driving school. Hence, not a racing school, so their was coverage.
So back to your question and concern, what if someone hits you on the street. Well, if it there fault and you live in a liability State (not a no fault State) you are in luck. Your policy may not cover everything, but the person who hit you, and is presumably responsible for the loss, is going to be held liable for the damages he or she caused to your property and there are no restrictions on what they won't cover; except things that are illegal to begin with.
I am still researching this very topic and will post my findings when I am finished. I am 3 months in to it and can see there is a long road ahead.
Oh, and whomever said Progressive is their carrier....WARNING! I am appointed by them and they have adapted language in their new policy forms that exclude coverage at or on either a permenant or temporary racing facility and/or curcit. I still think there are flaws in their clause, but time will tell.
Feel free to ask any questions if you need help and I will do my best to get you the right information, not just the guess work you see sometimes. Oh, Danisr1 will chime in too. He is also an insurance agent and a respected member. His input has always been spot on for his area. And Stack is right, get in touch with a good broker/agent who knows this special type of coverage.
As an agent myself, I couldn't agree more. Good post.
-Chris
01-27-2009, 10:35 AM
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Not sure how I missed Fooshe's post, but yes, good one! One thing I'll add ... is that everyone should also find out of your state is a non-exclusion state (NC is... or at least was last I heard). This means your insurance provider CANNOT enforce any exclusions they may have. So you may be covered anyway ... but of course, it does not provide any protection against being dropped immediately afterwards.
Fooshe and/or Danisr1 ... can you tell us about subrogation and/or non-subrogation clauses as they pertain the third-party insurance coverage like we're discussing
Thanks!!
Fooshe and/or Danisr1 ... can you tell us about subrogation and/or non-subrogation clauses as they pertain the third-party insurance coverage like we're discussing
Thanks!!
01-27-2009, 11:00 AM
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The track is in VA of course, but it depends on where the policy originates as far as I know, not where an incident occurs (of course, I could be wrong) but we've had at LEAST two claims that were legit, on-track claims that were covered at tracks outside of NC.
One with State Farm, the other was with Progressive if I'm not mistaken (but it was couple years ago.)
One with State Farm, the other was with Progressive if I'm not mistaken (but it was couple years ago.)
01-27-2009, 11:34 AM
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No ... as in ... special insurer B cannot try to collect from main insurer A in the event of a claim (letter changed to make more sense)
Also... clearinghouses usually come up in questions about third party insurers ... basically ... fear of being dropped if your main street policy provider finds out you're being insured by a special provider.
Also... clearinghouses usually come up in questions about third party insurers ... basically ... fear of being dropped if your main street policy provider finds out you're being insured by a special provider.
01-27-2009, 11:53 AM
#118
It is not something I deal with on a day in day out basis but I would think that a waver of subrogation would not be needed as it is a specific exclusion from insurer "A" . My best guess would be that insurer "B" is a non-admitted carrier ( lloyds or something along those lines) and insurer "A" would never find out about them since they do not participate in our claims database, unless there was a very serious claim. I am not sure if that answers you question or not....
01-27-2009, 07:52 PM
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Not sure how I missed Fooshe's post, but yes, good one! One thing I'll add ... is that everyone should also find out of your state is a non-exclusion state (NC is... or at least was last I heard). This means your insurance provider CANNOT enforce any exclusions they may have. So you may be covered anyway ... but of course, it does not provide any protection against being dropped immediately afterwards.
Fooshe and/or Danisr1 ... can you tell us about subrogation and/or non-subrogation clauses as they pertain the third-party insurance coverage like we're discussing
Thanks!!
Fooshe and/or Danisr1 ... can you tell us about subrogation and/or non-subrogation clauses as they pertain the third-party insurance coverage like we're discussing
Thanks!!
If I am hearing your right, the waiver of subrogation that you clarified in your Insurer A and Insurer B scenario is normal. The issue is that the "Special Insurer" or Insurer A in this scenario agrees to maintain first party status. More simply, they are the primary coverage and can't collect anything from any other carrier and usually charge a higher premium for that waiver. Is that what you are asking?
In California, one of the questions on the application is "Is there any existing coverage on the application vehicle(s)?" and "Have you been declined, cancelled or non-renewed by any insurance carrier in the last 3 years?" This requires you to disclose any other coverage so they are aware of any concurrent coverage situations; regardless of it being primary or not. That being said, this also gives them a possible out on a material misrepresentation if you don't disclose it.
I am unaware of the issue of a state telling an insurance company that they can't enforce an exclusion. You see, all States have a Department of Insurance and most every State I am aware of has to approve both the rates being charged for any Company, as well as approve their policy forms and endorsements. So it begs the question, if they approve it's use, how can they say you can't enforce it? I am really curious about that one!
On the issue of
Last edited by Fooshe; 01-27-2009 at 07:56 PM.
01-27-2009, 08:03 PM
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The track is in VA of course, but it depends on where the policy originates as far as I know, not where an incident occurs (of course, I could be wrong) but we've had at LEAST two claims that were legit, on-track claims that were covered at tracks outside of NC.
One with State Farm, the other was with Progressive if I'm not mistaken (but it was couple years ago.)
One with State Farm, the other was with Progressive if I'm not mistaken (but it was couple years ago.)
For example, if I drive to Las Vegas, NV from Los Angeles, CA, my CA policy covers me in both States. However, if my minimum policy does not meet NV's minimum standards, then my carrier will automatically protect me to that State's minimum amount of required coverage.