Heel / Toe In The Z
I'm a novice to heel/toe too and have been practicing more and more on the street.. The closer seating position (just one notch) and moving my right knee in towards the steering wheel has helped tremendously. Thanks for the tips guys.
Learning how to brake correctly is the hardest thing you'll do in road racing and autocross. Adding heel/toe to that learning experience makes things more difficult. Its far easier to heel/toe on the street then when you're threshold braking at 145 and downshifting two gears going from the Cal Speedway backstraight into the infield.
Learning how to brake correctly is the hardest thing you'll do in road racing and autocross. Adding heel/toe to that learning experience makes things more difficult. Its far easier to heel/toe on the street then when you're threshold braking at 145 and downshifting two gears going from the Cal Speedway backstraight into the infield.
Top speed at my local track is (would be) mid to high 90s. Always bouncing off 3rd gear redline on the back straight. Incorporating heel/toe will come in time..
350Z-holic
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 14,502
Likes: 22
From: NC
We are also having a great discussion about this on another forum I vist. There have been some great nuggets of wisdom passed on. Let me see If I can quote a few(yes, some of these are from me):
Practice with the car off in the drive way or garage. This will help find the pivot point for your foot for your particular car. If you can identify that and know the place where your heel can stay stationary (if possible) and just move the ball of your foot over then things will be easier and smoother.
Absolutely practice on the street for a long time. Sitting at a stoplight? Let the right side of your foot wander onto the gas and explore the gas pedal. Try to sustain 2k RPM. Try a blip to 3k. Push hard on the brake (track force) and try to get the sensitivity developed in your foot and ankle.
Coming to a stop from 60 MPH? Downshift into every gear including first. Making a slow stop? Just practice rev match only, no brake. The goal is to never ever let the car determine the engine's speed when decelerating.
Coming to a stop from 60 MPH? Downshift into every gear including first. Making a slow stop? Just practice rev match only, no brake. The goal is to never ever let the car determine the engine's speed when decelerating.
1. Get an idea of the basic mechanics of the technique in your garage. The car doesn't even need to be running to get a feel for how your foot likes to be arranged to start doing this.
2. Practice it with a running, parked car. This way you can hear the amount of RPMs you're adding. It might even be helpful to have someone look at your feet, to see if you're changing the amount of braking you're doing while giving the throttle a blip. This is a very common problem, and one of the most difficult parts of the technique to master.
3. Now, practice it on the street. I've held for years that heel-toe needs to be a HABIT before it becomes an effective tool for going faster. Also, I maintain that if you can do it successfully driving around town, doing it in a competition setting is a whole lot easier. On a track, since you're (presumably) braking very hard, a slight over- or under-rev blip will hardly be noticable. However, since you've been practicing it on the street, it's also very unlikely to happen. Because you're actually good at it.
2. Practice it with a running, parked car. This way you can hear the amount of RPMs you're adding. It might even be helpful to have someone look at your feet, to see if you're changing the amount of braking you're doing while giving the throttle a blip. This is a very common problem, and one of the most difficult parts of the technique to master.
3. Now, practice it on the street. I've held for years that heel-toe needs to be a HABIT before it becomes an effective tool for going faster. Also, I maintain that if you can do it successfully driving around town, doing it in a competition setting is a whole lot easier. On a track, since you're (presumably) braking very hard, a slight over- or under-rev blip will hardly be noticable. However, since you've been practicing it on the street, it's also very unlikely to happen. Because you're actually good at it.
Good videos:
Mark Skaife (Aussie V8's)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUXLTjDVgWc
Mark Skaife #2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Dv3whihq8I
Mark Skaife #3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdWSy...eature=related
Unknown Guy with old skool Pumas
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XR3LOl19G70
Ayrton Senna in loafers!! FTW!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8-zbfdPfRg
Mark Skaife (Aussie V8's)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUXLTjDVgWc
Mark Skaife #2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Dv3whihq8I
Mark Skaife #3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdWSy...eature=related
Unknown Guy with old skool Pumas
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XR3LOl19G70
Ayrton Senna in loafers!! FTW!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8-zbfdPfRg
You notice in the Skaife videos the little extra brake pedal pumps before big braking areas. Its a good habit to get into especially if you run enduros. He also sometimes gives a little extra pump at the start of hard braking/heel toe work to get the brake pedal up a bit to help out the heel/toe work.
i find heel toe, in the z quite easy. i also use the technique where the ball of my foot stays on the brake while it pivots so that the heel blips the throttle.- just kind of rolls over. u will be braking harder, so the brake will be depressed, allowing u to reach the throttle at a pretty even level. i actually like the spacing of the pedals on our cars.
also, the street is where u learn how to heel/toe, not the track. get used to practicing at slower speeds- but remember braking will be at a higher force on the track, so even on the street, brake somewhat harder, and the pedals will line up easier- then match your revs.
good luck.
also, the street is where u learn how to heel/toe, not the track. get used to practicing at slower speeds- but remember braking will be at a higher force on the track, so even on the street, brake somewhat harder, and the pedals will line up easier- then match your revs.
good luck.
i have no problem with it. I dont literally heel toe though, I just push the brake in with my big toe/left side of my right foot and tap the gas with the right side of my right foot.
Registered User
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 241
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From: Hawaii
On a side note, yes, heel and toe downshifting in the Z33 and the V35 1st gen Gs sucks compared H&T downshifting in the V36 2nd gen Gs. The pedal setup in the upcoming Z34 is exactly the same as it is in the 2nd gen Gs i.e. the gas pedal is now about twice the size as it was in the 1st gen and is now floor hinged and positioned on the same plane (not mounted below) as the brake pedal. For those who have trouble H&T downshifting in the current Z33, you'll find it much easier to execute in the new Z34. Trust me.
Quick update for anyone interested, we recently ordered a few of these pedals in for inventory. As soon as we receive the order in from Japan and get around to installing one of these in one of the shop cars I will report back on our findings.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k2Dn2aW-5bM
For me i also have found it virtually impossible. Maybe because of foot size.. DK has done it in the Amuse 350Z and makes it look easy but he makes everything look easy...
heel and toe at around 38 seconds
heel and toe at around 38 seconds
Last edited by Highway Riding; Jan 29, 2009 at 08:52 AM. Reason: Amuse 350Z video added
I want one.
I had no idea they had different sized pedals. I own the Nismo, never had a problem heel/toe. Looking at regular, I can see why someone with small feet (like me) might run into an issue.
I'm strictly a heel toer though, I know alot of guys go ball/pinky toe. I feel the time it takes to do that pivot is perfect. Also, I find it to be a lot easier at higher speeds when you need more brake. At low speeds, you may find yourself pushing too hard on the brake and it will be more difficult to rev match. I know practicing at highspeeds is a pisspoor idea, but if you got yourself a straightaway, bring her up, and then bring her back down. Then practice in the curvy's.
I'm strictly a heel toer though, I know alot of guys go ball/pinky toe. I feel the time it takes to do that pivot is perfect. Also, I find it to be a lot easier at higher speeds when you need more brake. At low speeds, you may find yourself pushing too hard on the brake and it will be more difficult to rev match. I know practicing at highspeeds is a pisspoor idea, but if you got yourself a straightaway, bring her up, and then bring her back down. Then practice in the curvy's.
with racing shoes I cannot heel/toe properly on the nismo because of an old injury to the knee... so I ball/pinky... that is fine.. don't get me wrong... except the time your pedals are "dirty" and when you roll the feet you loose contact with the brake.. and that is damn scary (and dangerous.. I end up out of the course in a safe area)
Registered User
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 259
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From: Long Beach C.A
i find heel and toeing in the Z very easy, infact one of the easiest cars i have ever done it in. If you have had enough track experience you would think so as well. The s2k or the new 997 carrera is much MUCH harder. A lighter weight flywheel also helps very much as well to match the rpm's.
350Z-holic
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 14,502
Likes: 22
From: NC
i find heel and toeing in the Z very easy, infact one of the easiest cars i have ever done it in. If you have had enough track experience you would think so as well. The s2k or the new 997 carrera is much MUCH harder. A lighter weight flywheel also helps very much as well to match the rpm's.