WXSigns

iTrader: (15)

+1

The schools I have attended, in my area, they, instructors, don't teach the race lines, unless your an advance driver.

A Novice driver, 1st time at the track, I doubt they are going to teach a race line.

betamotorsports

iTrader: (1)

I think there's some confusion about what a "race" line is. If a driver in a race is all by himself on the track (leading or DFL) they will drive a line pretty close to what the driving schools teach. Each track has a fast qualifying line that's close, but not exactly what's taught at driving schools and that's what a lone racer should be shooting for. Turn 2 at Willow Springs has three different "lines" depending on the situation at hand.

When another car is overtaking or being overtaken the line driven is different. This is what's described as the "race" lines. These lines are slower around the track because two cars closely racing each interfere with driving the perfect line. That's why a third driver farther back can catch up.

A defensive "race" line is usually down the middle of the track entering a turn, forcing the overtaking driver to go around the outside. There are very few drivers that can make a pass on the outside stick.

An offensive "race" line is as far inside as required and as late braking as possible to get a front wheel even with the overtaken driver's door. You get to that point and the inside driver owns the corner and the outside driver has to give way and allow racing room.

Both of the above descriptions are very general and there are a lot of variation (both good and bad). Driving a car in a race while trying to overtake or keep from being overtaking is very different from time trials or qualifying. Remember, the winner of a race is the first car across the finish line, not the car with the fastest lap(s).

Stack

You're all wrong

The race line is whatever line you happen to be on during a race... period. Whatever it takes to finish the race, preferably in front of everyone else, preferably using the slowest lap times possible.

The debate Marty has started should actually be called School Line vs. Time Trial or Qualifying line.

In my not-so-humble opinion of course... especially seeing as how I don't race except in the virtual world.

stuntman

Ok smarty-pants, then what's the Bench-racing line?

mhoward1

According to my kids, it the short cut through the shopping mall in Midnight club.

mhoward1

That's not fully the case.

It should be..the sooner on the throttle = faster.

many corners actually call for a sharper turn in, then an increasing radius arc to apply the throttle sooner and straighten before the track out.

stuntman

If you want to go that far, I will take it a step further.

It really is a case-by-case basis. Depending on the car's power, grip level (mechanical, tire, and aerodynamic), the cars weight, the type of corner, etc...

For medium and higher speed corners where putting power down isn't an issue, first off the radius will be larger than a tighter lower-speed corner, and second, as speeds increase, the line will be more constant than lower-speed corners (generally speaking).

I for one am for straightening the exit sooner and putting the power down earlier but on data, sometimes constant-radius and higher mid-corner speeds with later on-throttle points will be faster.

Arguing on the internet is useless, you need to look at data of a more constant-radius line compared to a later apex/earlier on throttle line to determine for that car and corner, what line is faster.

But yes, R does = MPH in all regards, its a formula (much more complex but simplified to R=MPH) developed by Colin Chapman...

WXSigns

iTrader: (15)

Well lets screw up the whole thread and talk about the rain line...LOL

stuntman

Thats simple, the line that has the most grip for THAT lap

Stack

I think you're reading it!

Stack

Stuntman's right actually though, it is definitely a case-by-case basis ... While I'm of the opinion there's "A" perfect line around any given track (i.e. the "line" is the same whether for a miata or Stuntman's Semi), the approach and manipulation of the car around that line will vary based on the innumerable variables that go with each aspect of equipment, experience, and track.

And comparing data is only truly worth anything if, and only if, a driver is consistent enough and skilled enough to make the car do what he or she wants... then make it do something else in the same turn, THEN come back, and do the other thing again.

stuntman

/thread

spf4000

Not true. A lightweight, low HP momentum car has a different optimum line through corners compared to a high-HP, heavyweight car. Lines even change depending on whether you're running racing slicks or radials.

Stack

And therein lies the debate... I thought about this in the shower this morning (cause I knew this exact post would be waiting for me):

There is an optimal line around every track based on the track layout and construction. It's not just geometrics, it's also turn layout, surface quality, camber, width, etc. etc. THAT line does not change (except when one of the construction or layout factors changes permanently.) On any given track, depending on your vehicle, your driving style, your risk threshold (and again, ALL the other variables) you will have to compromise that line in some way. So... to put it simply, once and for all (at least for me):

YOUR line might change, but THE line does not.

Does that make sense to anyone else?

mhoward1

great post, and I would also add that the track has to be looked as as a whole vs corner by corner. The optimal line is a specific corner may have to be sacrificed a bit to flow better in to a corner that has a higher priority over all.

In truth, being able to just look at data is a huge step forward for the non-F1 driver. The systems that now are available to anyone can really be a great leaning tool for those who are trying to fine tune what they know.

WXSigns

iTrader: (15)

FWD has a different line. I've tracked both RWD and FWD and the turn into Apex is completely different.

dkmura

iTrader: (64)

Let's not forget that every race track is different and needs to be factored into the discussion. But to me and for each HPDE or track day I have instructed at, teaching the fast (also known as the qualifying or ideal) line has to be the prime topic. Why? As others have said, the fast line usually has the widest arc throughout the turn, maximizes speed and minimizes turning forces. In other words, the fast line is usually the safe line!

The "race line" as described here doesn't make much sense. Yes, during a race you can deviate from the ideal line to overtake in that turn . Most racers will then intersect the proper racing line after making the pass until it's time to make another one! The ones who don't have usually been repassed or spun off to the side...

The point is, novices have a lot of information being poured at them at a typical track day or HPDE. Why would you NOT teach the ideal racing line to them from the very outset? Sure, everyone (depending on their car setup, RWD vs. FWD, etc) will modify that line slightly for their best entry, apex and exit, but it's not nearly as radical as making a pass.

mpowers

iTrader: (7)

What? Their is a race line?


mpowers
no one ever told me,lol

Stack

Yeah... if you'd have waited to become HPDE Champion before going racing you'd know that

mpowers

iTrader: (7)

Damn!



mpowers