guitarist

iTrader: (1)

Hot and fresh from the latest Fastrack:


1) Stock: The following new listings have been approved by the SEB and are effective immediately upon publication:
...

Nissan 370Z Nismo (’09) AS


They must have seen some performance potential to justify it. Makes me wonder what it was, since what I've seen of the new Z says B Stock all the way.

Slow*Jim

iTrader: (5)

Well, for starters they are rated at 350hp. 370's with I/H/E are seeing 50+whp gains.

guitarist

iTrader: (1)

All the power in the world is worth little with a half-assed diff, no front camber and too much weight.

No way it's gonna unseat the Hondas or the Vettes already in AS. But I suppose that's how they want it.

It would maybe have a shot at taking out the RX-8 in BS, dependent on courses, of course, but that can't happen since Mazda is a big sponsor and they keep their sponsors happy - as they should.

It's not a big deal in the end anyway, I guess, since very few people autocross their Zs and even fewer are going to be willing to pay a tire budget on par with or bigger than the Vettes (19in wheels) to be down 80hp and up 100+lbs on them.

Chiketkd

What have you seen? Do you have a top driver autocrossing a 370Z locally? Is it fully prepped - shocks, FSB and A6's?

In my local WDCR region, we have a solid female driver in a B-stock 370Z and I'm quite impressed by the car's potential. I personally think a regular 370Z could get the job done. The nismo model is definitely a step-up in performance, so I'm not surprised it ended up in AS, however, I would agree that it'll most likely be class fodder for the S2000's and Solstice GXP's.

The biggest handicap the 370Z/Nismo has is its lack of camber. The "half-assed" diff is less of an issue now since it comes with 19x10" rear wheels. 295's sit squarely on a wheel that size and 315's could even be made to fit. You can put a lot of power down with rubber that wide.

My $0.02.

guitarist

iTrader: (1)

I had one for a week. I review cars for a living. And I autocross my 350Z a lot, all over the region. I'm not 'top level' but I'm a long way from slow.

I've driven it (my 350) from completely stock on OEM tires all the way to about 95% prepped (as it sits now), so I have a decent basis for comparison. Even with data acq the 370Z doesn't show an advantage over my car beyond two or three tenths to 60mph.

The Nismo certainly would have more advantage in a straight line, but then the 350Z shows all kinds of advantages over the RX-8 in terms of power and acceleration (yes, I've reviewed the new R3 and driven them head-to-head) and still it doesn't dominate BS on a mechanical level. It is far more competitive than most people give it credit for, though.

Anyway, given the pace of the GXPs and S2000s, I was just surprised. 18 more horsepower plus maybe a bit more spring isn't enough to bridge that gap. Maybe the Nismo Z does belong there, but with a sample size of zero (there are no retail units in the country until June), it seems hasty.

Chiketkd

Understood about straight-line speed to 60mph. However, in autocross that rarely comes into play unless in a pro solo setting.

The course map below is from the previous WDCR event (held @ Fedex stadium on a grippy asphalt surface) and the area circled in red is the section of the course where the following pics were taken. Pictures below are of an RX-8 (myself), the 370Z and a F-stock Shelby GT (Strano) exiting this section under full power. The Max Q data my co-driver and I use, showed that our minimum speed through this section was 25mph, which was the slowest part of the entire course.



RX-8


370Z


Shelby GT


If you look closely at the inside tire of the Shelby GT, there's visible tire smoke coming up. All FS Shelby's were getting audible wheelspin coming out of there (as an fyi, FS and BS ran in the same heat). The former 350Z's would get wheelspin like FS cars when exiting slower corners - I really don't see these new 370Z's having the same issue (due to the wider rear wheels).

Lack of front negative camber is the biggest issue with the 370Z but this tends to affect tire wear more than anything else.

guitarist

iTrader: (1)

And if you look at the slip angle of the front tires on that Z, you'll see she's understeering a good bit as well - that is one of the downsides of (extremely) limited camber on the front end. The Shelby either straightened it out already or he's fighting a bit of oversteer, judging by his front wheels being back to straight already. Hard to tell in a still photo.

My 350Z no longer gets that inside wheelspin with 295s on the rear and the shocks adjusted properly, no matter the surface. It just goes. But I wouldn't want to throw another 50+hp at the diff. Even with another 2in of wheel.

And my whole point with the straight line stuff is that's the only place the 370Z has an advantage over the earlier 350Zs. If autocross results prove anything, it's that power matters little, while transitional ability is king.

ldstang50

iTrader: (2)

I think the change is a bit hasty. I've been driving my car with 295s on it and will soon have 315s on the rear. I've always preached the lack of static negative camber has killed the z in auto-x.
I do race against Keith Scala on a regular basis, former BS national champ and currently campaigning a fully prepped RS on the new fatter Hoosiers. 2 events this season, him on new tires me on old and we have 1 win a piece.
The Nismo handles transitions a lot better than a stock z, almost on par with RS. The z does however have better sustained grip (think long sweeper or skid pad) and will out pull the RS in any short section. The RS kills it in corner entry.

Chiketkd

I definitely would agree that the 350Z/370Z will both understeer. Strano was using a self-described toss-n-catch style of driving, but he sets up for stuff super early anyways - which is why he's won so many national titles and is an Evo School instructor.

Liam, looking forward to running against you and Keith at the Finger Lakes NT. You said Keith has a fully-prepped "RS"??? I know he drives an RX-8. Does he have the new R3 model?

ULLLOSE

Not sure why they should bother to class the Nissan at all when no one bothers to bring them to any big events.

The SEB tossed the Nissan fanbois a bone when they put the 350 Nismo in to BS, and the biggest complaints came from the 350 drivers who were going to be "obsoleted" by the Nismo, yet it never made a dent in the class.

Then the sky was falling from the 350 guys (and some candy @ss RX-8 drivers) when the 370 was put in BS. Again, has not made a dent in the class - hard to do when no one brings them out.

So now you need a Nismo 370 to compete with an RX-8. Until you have fast/proven drivers show the cars can't compete you are going to have a hard time selling that one.

ULLLOSE

Only someone who has no clue about the rules making/car classing process would make a foolish statement like that.

ULLLOSE

At 25mph in an RX-8 you could have been in 1st gear. Without data and equal drivers this is of no value. btw Mustang LSD, not so good, its easy to spin up the inside rear if you don't have a fresh clutch pack.

betamotorsports

iTrader: (1)

That's not the point Jason. Everyone wants to KNOW their car will win before they make an effort to find out. Why make the effort if the result isn't guaranteed?

ULLLOSE

Well then buy a Mini.

terrasmak

iTrader: (8)

What does that have to do with A stock??

guitarist

iTrader: (1)

Well, Mr. Isley, you should read a bit of what Andy Hollis has to say about how classes are made/what performance targets are chosen then. I'm just going from what the guys actually on the SEB, etc, say when they talk about making classes.

They build classes to certain performance targets, and when they choose the cars, the involved manufacturers get a nod. You think it's pure coincidence that Mazda, Honda and Mini have at least 4-5 classes where they are the cars for the class? That's pretty high praise for their manufacturing prowess.

It's not like they write Lotus out of every class their cars would dominate or anything.

And as for 350Z guys being whiny, I'm saying the Nismo 370 should be a BS car. It's certainly not going to dethrone the RX-8, much less the S2k.

ULLLOSE

Bull $hit that anyone on the SEB told you that manufacturer support has anything to do with classing. I served my time on the SEB, with Andy for a number of those years, and you are flat out wrong.

Do you think it is a coincidence that popular cars (popular with the general public) seem to be plentiful at autocrosses? All of the cars you claim have been given the “nod” are cars that are popular with the public, sell in good numbers and are fun to drive.

Do you see big support from GM? Hell they can win in SS, AS and DS, they must be slipping a check to someone. How about when Ford was handed FS, must have been the free Shelby that every member of the SEB got.

Or could it be that the Corvette has been one of the best selling most popular sports cars in the US, a lot of people have them and want to race them. And even though they can’t balance a check book, with the Cobalt GM managed to make an inexpensive fun to drive fwd coupe that seems to keep up with the TypeR in DS. Prior to the Shelby FS was in big trouble, they had pathetic entry numbers, now there is a big resurgence in the class.

Even when SCCA had an official car, the Dodge SRT series, they did not have a single model in a competitive class. Yep, big conspiracy.

As far as Lotus, if they could keep a car spec’d the same for more than one year it might be easier to class them appropriately. But I have a feeling you are reaching on this one, and not in fact even referring to where it is in stock.

guitarist

iTrader: (1)

Look man, I never said they're paying for classes. I said they're involved with the sport, and they get some consideration for it. And I said it SHOULD BE that way. There was no critique there. If you're saying that's not true, I'm calling ********.

I'm sure you know what you're talking about, but you're not talking about what I'm talking about. And it might not be a bad idea to chill out a bit. You don't know me, or what I meant.

There are literally more than 5x as many 350Zs on the road as S2000s. But there isn't even a provisional street tire class for the Z. And no one autocrosses them. So it's not popularity alone.

And before you say, "well no one autocrosses them", maybe it's because there is no home for the way most of them are built on the street outside the wildly inappropriate BSP.

I'm 100% with you on the Cobalt. I got to drive one at a GM press event at TMS, and it was a blast. More fun than the Sky Redline IMO. But Mazda has a dog in that hunt too, and it's called the Speed3.

As for the Lotus cars, they are line-itemed out of classes in the rule book, including the new STR, sheerly because they are too fast, not because they don't fit the class model.

PDX_Racer

iTrader: (2)

Well, I didn't B&M too much about the Nismo 350Z, nor am I going to B&M about the 370Z in BS.

I've said for years that you only need a lot of negative camber when you have a lot of body roll. Since the 350Z doesn't have a lot of body roll, it doesn't need a lot of static negative camber, and the tire wear (front and rear) that I see from my 350Z bears that out.

Yes, I've done some investigating about the 370Z -- although not yet to the point where I'll be buying one (yet). I think that it will be competitive once it's in the hands of a good driver -- in spite of the lack of adjustable camber.

Don't forget -- the 370Z can still be moved under the 12-month rule, and the same can be said for the Nismo 370Z.

The problem with Lotus is that they change specs from car-to-car, so no two Lotuses are alike. That's the reason that they are hard to class, not that they are "too competitive" or "don't fit the class model."

guitarist

iTrader: (1)

I, too, never bitched about the Nismo 350. The more Zs the merrier man. Even 370s, though for that much cash I'd rather have a C5 Z06 and a tire+travel budget.

Lotus does futz around with engine spec etc a lot, in part because they source their engines from third parties. But I'm just basing what I say on what I read. If the SCCA says (quoting from the STR ruleset)

"Excluded vehicles due to performance potential:
- Lotus cars"

I take them at their word.