Now given those example...ask your self how many of those drivers started with a car with that much power. heck how many had a car with 1/2 that much power in the first few YEARS.

Starting with that much power people will tend to mask really bad habits with power and since the car has 3X or maybe 4X as much power as the others they will run with at first the driver will think it's ok. hen they will get with others with only 2X less power, get their doors blown off and blaim the car. The habits will be formed and very hard to undo.
The biggest bad habbit is in not understand chassis dynamics during transitions, slip angle control and traction, carrying momentum, and true entry speed. They come in with a vehicle whose limits are so high that they never really approach them to see how the vehicle reacts.

Its the same argument about using street tires. Its a lot easier to play with what happens at the limit. They tires talk to you so you can undertsand grip threasholds and how a 8 to 10% slip angle actualy generated more grip than no slip at all. There is also a larger threshold between slip and down right loss of traction.

But I have a feeling this will all be lost on the "Power is everything crowd"

 

ok... let's assume that you know what you are doing... do you mind answering those few questions?
what suspension mods have you already done? brakes? stripped the car of pretty much everything? stiffened the chassis? put a full cage?
do you already go faster than most of the people attending HPDE at the local road course?

 

I wont even lie im still decicding on coilovers becuase i talked to sharif and hal about a couple of setups. Since i primarilly willl be a weekend warrior im leaning towards kw3 for my DD and track coilover. i have the hotchvis stage 1 and cusco control arms at the moment.
im waiting for my next regional test and tune for me to try to dial in my suspension. also i have 245 and 275/35/18 toyo proxie 4s at the moment

 

what about brakes? which setup do you have now? what are your plans? 350zs are notoriously under braked stock, and adding speed will make it worse

 

No one is saying you're an idiot. What we're trying to do is impart our decades of road racing experience to you via a message board. Right now, today, given the racing experience you appear to have, you will be FASTER around a race track if you spend money on driver training and suspension then if you spend money on more horsepower.

You may not want to believe that, but its true.

 

I still disagree, but your points are fair.

I'll say this much: My 650rwhp Z32TT (running ~525rwhp on the track) and my 260rwhp Z33 run the same lap times around Laguna Seca (1:47s). Both cars have more in them to run faster. They have basically the same brakes (332mm ST front, stock rear), although the Z32 is ~300# heavier. Same set of tires on both cars.

How is this possible?

-Driver (same driver, but he (me) is scared to push the Z32 too much given all the extra power, extra speed in the straights (140mph vs. 120mph), non-linear power band, etc.)

-Suspension (best $ I've spent on a car ever was the TrueChoice DA coilovers on the Z33. This is waaaaaaaaaaay better than my shocks/springs on the Z32TT).

One would also question how a 1993 Miata, with 85rwhp, can run the same lap times. Clearly HP is at the very bottom of his list.

 

brakes are stock at the moment. (SMH i know). hopefully i can scoop a used pair off the forums in a couple months or so.


whats your suspension setup??? (not in an offensive way. i like where this thread is goin.)

2nd.

SEE just like you said you are SCARED to use the power have. (not in an offensive way) Think if you weren't scared and was 100% confident that you could handle the power at WOT. YOU KNOW HOW MUCH FASTER YOU'D BE. those people who race in JGTC, tsukuba time attack,etc they arent scared to use WOT. they go all out for those fast times. just watch a couple tsukuba batles on youtube when driver do a "shakedown" on a car. those cars pushed to its max WITH HIGH HP.



Also as for that miata, the reason that car can run good lap times is that it has SO LITTLE WHP that your ALWAYS gonna be at WOT even in the twistes.Furthermore, they handle like beefed go-karts so yeah i can understand why. not to mention that IM NOT scared of a measly 85whp.lol

its like the time i autocrossed my stock 350z and i noticed this integra was gettin good times becuase he NEVER LETS OFF WOT UNLESS he has to brake in areas where simply just letting off the throttle wont work. in the 350z, u cant WOT with out a good suspension because the tail will slide out to easily.

 

As usual, John has stated it very well. To the OP, you've asked many experienced racers for their opinions and their answers (like this one) are quite clear. The point many have tried to convey is having less horsepower is sometimes a blessing in disguise. You'll learn to squeeze time out in small increments and smooth out the rough edges to your driving. You'll also have the side benefit of not spending time trying to fix a high-strung FI engine, blowing out the fires in your brakes, or swapping shedded tires all the time.

Another point we're leaving out is that---of course--we all love power and torque at the racetrack. But having a useable powerband with a fat midrange will probably be more useful for you at this stage of the game. Wait--you've already got that with your stock VQ!

David Muramoto
Editor-in-chief
Nissan Sport Magazine

 

Dude.. seriously...
You have no idea of what you're talking about.
absolutely NO IDEA.

You autocrossed few times, you had problems keeping the Z tail to stay where it should, and you compare what power can do for a PROFESSIONAL DRIVER, some former F1 driver, and tsukuba that is pretty much a kart driving track, with what power will do for you?

you do want to know what power will do for you? I have a list of things that will do for you:
1) make you cry when you'll discover that you cheap TT built nuked your engine and you'll have a 10K repair bill just to make the car drivable again.
2) make you cry harder when you'll discover that your clutch cannot handle that power and you'll go through clutches and flywheels like a kid goes through candies.
3) cry again when your stock differential will be shot from THE PAWAAA and you rear axles will give up with it pretty quick...
4) discover that with 400+ WHP you need a GOOD braking system if you don't want to cry in the hospital after crashing yourself and the car in a wall because you experienced fading at 140 mph... (if you're lucky and go to the hospital just in one piece)
5) if your car doesn't explode for any of the previous reason, power will just be AGAINST you in your learning curve... because applying power at 35mph in an autocross course is "just a little bit" different than applying power in a 100mph sweeper.... at that poing you'll have your chance of showing "how is it done" or go to the hospital like in point 4.

but I guess we can collect 10 bucks each a buy you a gopro camera, it's sturdy enough... we just want the movie... after.
so you can show us pu55ies how to handle PAWA...

 

Remember, they are driving sponsored race cars. Drop 3000 hours into your car and more money than you'd believe if I typed it, and you'd be hard-pressed to drive it at 100%.

Quite the contrary. Can a 37rwhp Datsun do this because it has such little HP? You need ***** of tungsten to keep the momentum in a low HP car to make up for the slower high HP stretch portions. I bet you could be scared in a Miata going over Laguna Seca's corkscrew at 90mph. All-too-often, and I'm sure the others will agree, I see high HP cars not giving a point-by or letting up on the gas in the straight to allow a lower HP car to make the pass. Whether it's guys in 287hp 350Zs not letting a Miata or a BMW to go, or a Z06 or other not letting an N/A 350Z by. Often the lower HP car is faster in every section of the track except for the long straights. This is due to the driver/suspension/tires/brakes combo. Only ~2 minute tracks, I'll see lower HP cars running 5 or 10s faster per lap, and that is significant!

I had to work my a&& off to get this C6Z06 to let me by, including sandbagging in the turn to get some room to build up speed upon corner exit. He finally gave me an inch, but it wasn't easy. Come to find out he was actually on HUGE race tires. I have countless examples, as I'm sure do the others, I just had these pictures handy.





Watch this vid from about 3:30 on. You see that TT Porsche not giving it up and just yank me on the straights. Again - power is not everything.

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Part of the reason I'm so adamant about this is because I spent all those hours and dollars building a 300ZX TT that I figured I would track to my heart's content. But two motors and an additional 300rwhp later, I realized the car was too pretty for me to drive at 100% and too expensive for me to ball up or toast another motor. I bought my track 350 for less than it cost to rebuild the 300ZX TT engine, and now I'm pushing this car towards that 100% limit only to find out that I'm just as fast and will likely be faster once I get more used to the car and dial it in to my preferences.

 

porsche 911 carrera cup S cost about 360.000$ out of the door and over the flatbed without spare parts...
the nismo 380RSR wasn't about 180.000$ without wheels/tires and ecu...

and we talk of car with less than 400whp... (probably 340 for the 380RSR and around 380/390 for the GT3 cup)

I think a corvette C6.R is around 600K ready to race with about 550WHP...

Probably with 80K you can get a panoz esperante gts that has 350WHP but races in "minor" series compared the others ... besides... has less PAWA...

 

I guess I missed this one - I will now say that you have no idea what you're talking about.

Horsepower is not scary on a road race track unless the car is an ill handling POS. A Spec Miata at the 105% limit of traction in turn 9 at WSIR while being passed on the inside by another Spec Miata at the 110% limit of traction is far scarier then any 800whp 350Z driven at 80% in the same corner.

You need to actually get on a race track and drive instead of posting meaningless teenage wet dreams on message board.

 

are you saying that after a couple autox's you have the experience and skill required to go all out ***** to the wall on every section of a track on a 500+ whp z?

 

I came back here, expected to find Stack's dissertation on Time Attack, and instead I find this mess!

Tsukuba, you are in Georgia, so come by the shop, and I'll give you a tour of the facility. Sometimes, things get lost in translation on web forums. We are at the track almost every other weekend, so feel free to join us.

The people on this thread are speaking the truth about power.

And I will throw another turn into the mix. Many of the uber-power Time Attack machines are not well developed from a chassis and aero standpoint, so they have to overcompensate with more POWER! A perfect example was last weekend's Time Attack at CMP. A GT3 Cup car with "just" 370whp (about 450bhp) waxed 20 other cars running far more power AND less weight to boot!

 

 

"A picture is worth a thousand words"

 

cool, are you availabe for an appointment this week????

 

NOT at all, BUT i am saying that SINCE im boosting my car shortly, i want advice as to HOW to shape my torque curve/powerband.

Furthermore, i am saying that there is nothing wrong with extra power as long it can be applied

 

This week is almost over, and we'll be at the track on Sat. I will be in the shop all of next week, so call up and come by.

 

LOL ... sorry to disappoint!

Without (hopefully) highjacking the thread again... I'll just say that I have a hard time with organizations promoting competition being for everyone. I know that sounds rotten, but there needs to be experience, and equipment standards that just aren't present in many time attack and time trial programs.

They promote an attitude of "I race, therefore I know what I'm doing" (along with "I'm solo, so I know what I'm doing" or "I've made my way out of the beginner group, therefore I know what I'm doing") which is not the proper attitude to have. RTA isn't the only one btw, I'm just making the assumption that that's the organization the OP's referring to when he says he's going to be doing TA's

I'll fully admit that I am biased seeing as how I have a business on the other end of the spectrum from time attacks... but that at the same time, I've been running events with TZC/THSCC who (I feel like) does it the right way by promoting the learning aspect of high-performance driving, THEN, after a driver has shown the ability and respect, they are allowed to compete in a controlled environment, with the proper safety equipment.