Track Junkies w/ VQs - Is an oil cooler a must have?
10-06-2009, 09:57 AM
#81
These are the types of posts that I think contribute to the confusion - not that you're doing intentionally, but it is worth pointing out.
You cannot compare oil analysis from one type of engine to another. The result of the test is driven by alot of things - not all of which are properties of the oil itself. Instead, they are more the results of the interaction between that engine and that oil. In other words, if an engine builder uses bearing brand A, and sets his engine with a particular set of tolerances, then that oil is going to exhibit some properties after a test that another brand of engine using that same oil may not show. If one car is forced induction and another is not , again, that can show up in the test results. The point of the oil analysis is to try a sample of stuff from a bunch of brands, one one engine, change them at the same intervals using the same filter, take those results, and find what oil your particular engine gets along best with. Taking someone else's word for it when they don't even have your engine, is like buying a Buick because Tiger does their commercials.
Motul makes fine oil - hell we sell it and I've used it myself on some cars that we own. But beta is right - I'd love to see an example of an oil that did "break down" (I'm not sure what that means either), on that particular car as well.
You cannot compare oil analysis from one type of engine to another. The result of the test is driven by alot of things - not all of which are properties of the oil itself. Instead, they are more the results of the interaction between that engine and that oil. In other words, if an engine builder uses bearing brand A, and sets his engine with a particular set of tolerances, then that oil is going to exhibit some properties after a test that another brand of engine using that same oil may not show. If one car is forced induction and another is not , again, that can show up in the test results. The point of the oil analysis is to try a sample of stuff from a bunch of brands, one one engine, change them at the same intervals using the same filter, take those results, and find what oil your particular engine gets along best with. Taking someone else's word for it when they don't even have your engine, is like buying a Buick because Tiger does their commercials.
Motul makes fine oil - hell we sell it and I've used it myself on some cars that we own. But beta is right - I'd love to see an example of an oil that did "break down" (I'm not sure what that means either), on that particular car as well.
I just thought I would share a tidbit of information with this community that was passed along to me from an engine builder, race car prep specialist, and former CART series crew chief of the year. The recommendation came from a source I feel is unbiased and credible.
I will FAIL in providing you evidence of that oil "break down". Frankly, I'm not going to go chasing it down. In the interest of full disclosure, the "break down" convo came from one of the lead techs at DA. Shad, the owner, stood behind the Motul recommendation referencing the findings that other oils they've tried have "broken down" in the built, boosted, and race prepped NSX.
The "brake down" was explained to me by the DA tech, in lay man's terms, as heat causing the components in the oil to separate and some of the separated components started to harden. Their main concern was the barings.
Since I am not providing anything more than a unsupported statement passed along from someone I trust, the resident oil experts can debate what I'm saying at their own free will. I just found the info interesting and I felt like sharing.
10-06-2009, 12:43 PM
#83
The "brake down" was explained to me by the DA tech, in lay man's terms, as heat causing the components in the oil to separate and some of the separated components started to harden. Their main concern was the barings
Old Nissan L6 engines had a similar issue around the 5 and 6 exhaust valves in very high horsepower turbo applications. An external routing of the cooling system return through the head solved this.
If the issue is the bearings then, IMHO, oil flow to those bearings needs to be increased and bearing clearances opened up a tiny bit.
Last edited by betamotorsports; 10-06-2009 at 12:45 PM.
10-06-2009, 05:19 PM
#85
This is generally from heat and can be a localized issue in some engines even with good oil cooling and the oil temps appearing to be under control. Re-routing the oil flow or increasing flow into these areas will reduce or even solve the problem.
Old Nissan L6 engines had a similar issue around the 5 and 6 exhaust valves in very high horsepower turbo applications. An external routing of the cooling system return through the head solved this.
If the issue is the bearings then, IMHO, oil flow to those bearings needs to be increased and bearing clearances opened up a tiny bit.
Old Nissan L6 engines had a similar issue around the 5 and 6 exhaust valves in very high horsepower turbo applications. An external routing of the cooling system return through the head solved this.
If the issue is the bearings then, IMHO, oil flow to those bearings needs to be increased and bearing clearances opened up a tiny bit.
These pics were taken earlier this year at a local meet they held. No "Motul" stickers to be found here.
They claim, thru testing, that Motul is the best oil they’ve found for the conditions they run under. Therefore, they recommend it. They also claim, thru testing, that they’ve found other oils, such as Redline, to “break down” (see symptoms I’ve sited earlier) under the same conditions.
Obviously, you've done your own testing and have not encountered the same issues. Kudos to you for actually doing testing and contributing to this community. However, I see no reason to discount what they've told me.
Last edited by M1r4cL3; 10-06-2009 at 05:23 PM.
10-07-2009, 06:16 AM
#86
Continue oil cooler talk please.
Are we still talking about oil coolers in 350Z's in here? I'm strongly considering installing one next year for my track/DD VQ35DE rev-up.
The oil analysis thread is here -> https://my350z.com/forum/engine-and-...-and-info.html
The oil analysis thread is here -> https://my350z.com/forum/engine-and-...-and-info.html
10-07-2009, 06:46 AM
#87
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Thanks for sharing this insight.
I just thought I would share a tidbit of information with this community that was passed along to me from an engine builder, race car prep specialist, and former CART series crew chief of the year. The recommendation came from a source I feel is unbiased and credible.
I will FAIL in providing you evidence of that oil "break down". Frankly, I'm not going to go chasing it down. In the interest of full disclosure, the "break down" convo came from one of the lead techs at DA. Shad, the owner, stood behind the Motul recommendation referencing the findings that other oils they've tried have "broken down" in the built, boosted, and race prepped NSX.
The "brake down" was explained to me by the DA tech, in lay man's terms, as heat causing the components in the oil to separate and some of the separated components started to harden. Their main concern was the barings.
Since I am not providing anything more than a unsupported statement passed along from someone I trust, the resident oil experts can debate what I'm saying at their own free will. I just found the info interesting and I felt like sharing.
I just thought I would share a tidbit of information with this community that was passed along to me from an engine builder, race car prep specialist, and former CART series crew chief of the year. The recommendation came from a source I feel is unbiased and credible.
I will FAIL in providing you evidence of that oil "break down". Frankly, I'm not going to go chasing it down. In the interest of full disclosure, the "break down" convo came from one of the lead techs at DA. Shad, the owner, stood behind the Motul recommendation referencing the findings that other oils they've tried have "broken down" in the built, boosted, and race prepped NSX.
The "brake down" was explained to me by the DA tech, in lay man's terms, as heat causing the components in the oil to separate and some of the separated components started to harden. Their main concern was the barings.
Since I am not providing anything more than a unsupported statement passed along from someone I trust, the resident oil experts can debate what I'm saying at their own free will. I just found the info interesting and I felt like sharing.
10-07-2009, 08:08 AM
#88
They claim, thru testing, that Motul is the best oil they’ve found for the conditions they run under. Therefore, they recommend it. They also claim, thru testing, that they’ve found other oils, such as Redline, to “break down” (see symptoms I’ve sited earlier) under the same conditions.
10-07-2009, 08:38 AM
#89
To get back on topic, I have another question, directed at those who are involved in more serious forms of road racing/time attack/etc:
Do you still use a sandwich plate to plumb the oil cooler, or do you tap the oil send and return lines some other way? Are there any advantages to doing it this way vs. using a sandwich plate?
Do you still use a sandwich plate to plumb the oil cooler, or do you tap the oil send and return lines some other way? Are there any advantages to doing it this way vs. using a sandwich plate?
10-07-2009, 09:02 AM
#90
That's great. In their application Motul works the best for them and I'm not disputing that. If you want to run that oil in your car I'm sure it will work out fine for you. What I have an issue with is a general Internet message board assumption that what works for a race car also works for a street car. More often then not, what a race team does to a race car is less the optimal for a street car.
I agree that it is not safe to assume what works on a race car will work on a street car. Most times they are apples and oranges.
In this specific case tho, do you think that Motul oil would be any less optimum (vs. other brands) for a street car that sees light to medium track duty? Would the fact that an oil cooler is present on the car influence your decision?
10-07-2009, 09:19 AM
#92
Are we still talking about oil coolers in 350Z's in here? I'm strongly considering installing one next year for my track/DD VQ35DE rev-up.
The oil analysis thread is here -> https://my350z.com/forum/engine-and-...-and-info.html
The oil analysis thread is here -> https://my350z.com/forum/engine-and-...-and-info.html
From what I seen/heard about the different flavors of the VQ, it appears the DE rev-up would be the most likely benefit most from an OC if it's gonna see repeated track duty. I already know one person that had to get that engine replaced for consumption issues... and he's still having problems with consumption.
10-07-2009, 09:38 AM
#93
Since opinions are split and no1 is really able to offer any conclusive evidence then I figured we might as well talk about some things that I've found may factor into the decision.
10-07-2009, 10:45 AM
#94
Anyone have a Mishimoto setup? I'm trying to decide whether or not to piece together a setup or buy an existing one that is fairly easy install and effective.
Also, what temps are your coolers helping you run at? I've noticed the $650-$1000 Nismo unit claims that they hold oil temps to "under" 262 in hard running. This is with a cooler shroud and still seems really high (probably safe, but high). I would hope to get a package that can maintain pressure and cool to 240'ish in a 15 min track session.
Also, what temps are your coolers helping you run at? I've noticed the $650-$1000 Nismo unit claims that they hold oil temps to "under" 262 in hard running. This is with a cooler shroud and still seems really high (probably safe, but high). I would hope to get a package that can maintain pressure and cool to 240'ish in a 15 min track session.
10-07-2009, 01:24 PM
#95
From my research over the past few days, it seems to be about $30 cheaper to build your own when comparing apples to apples in the build vs. buy decision in terms of actual components (Setrab/Mocal cooler, braided lines, high quality connectors, etc). The GTM kit is $380, and you can piece together a kit with similar components in the $350 range (those Setrab coolers are $$). That said, you can piece one together for about $215 if you go with an economy cooler and socketless connectors. In the middle, there are the Earl's coolers, which I hear are on the same level as Setrab and Mocal, and are about $50 cheaper for a comparable unit.
A big difference between building your own vs. the off the shelf options is that all the pre-made kits all seem to use -8AN connectors and hoses. The prices above for the build option use -10AN connectors and hoses.
I spoke with a rep today from a company that sells cooling products exclusively, and inquired as to the differences between the high end coolers (Setrab, Mocal) and economy units. He mentioned that in the lower end models (e.g. ebay specials), such features as the turbinators on the core were omitted, resulting in efficiency losses of up to ~25% (a number he threw out there, not sure if there was testing to back this up). He did mention that he actually cut open the cores of these units to inspect and compare. That said, he did make a note that depending on your cooling needs, this can be just fine as in these cases the extra 25% efficiency would not be needed. Also, there is a tradeoff between core size and cooling efficiency (i.e. you can buy a larger cheapie model that will cool the same as a smaller high end unit).
Last edited by guitman32; 10-07-2009 at 03:29 PM.
10-12-2009, 11:03 AM
#98
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Anyone have a Mishimoto setup? I'm trying to decide whether or not to piece together a setup or buy an existing one that is fairly easy install and effective.
Also, what temps are your coolers helping you run at? I've noticed the $650-$1000 Nismo unit claims that they hold oil temps to "under" 262 in hard running. This is with a cooler shroud and still seems really high (probably safe, but high). I would hope to get a package that can maintain pressure and cool to 240'ish in a 15 min track session.
Also, what temps are your coolers helping you run at? I've noticed the $650-$1000 Nismo unit claims that they hold oil temps to "under" 262 in hard running. This is with a cooler shroud and still seems really high (probably safe, but high). I would hope to get a package that can maintain pressure and cool to 240'ish in a 15 min track session.
I pretty much self assembled the setup that GTM sells using a setrab 19 row cooler and the same mocal thermostatic adapter.
I have a VQ35HR
10-12-2009, 11:07 AM
#99
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it goes back to ~15 psi idle, but only driving quite hard or some jammed traffic with no air flow.