Track Junkies w/ VQs - Is an oil cooler a must have?
09-14-2009, 03:53 PM
#1
Track Junkies w/ VQs - Is an oil cooler a must have?
First off, I did search and found some good info but nothing I would consider definitive.
I've heard considerable talk lately about stock 370s going into limp mode on the track for excessive oil temps their VQs produce.
I've also heard talk about excessively tracked 350s spinning barings and/or consuming oil.
Is the temperature of my oil something I should be highly concerned about?
Should I get an oil cooler ASAP?
I would like to avoid discussion about F/I 350s or those race prepared. I want to know about the average Joe Schmoe tracking on high level street tires, in intermediate level run groups, around 5-6 times per year.
Please share your input, expertise, advice if you have experience or insight into this.
I've heard considerable talk lately about stock 370s going into limp mode on the track for excessive oil temps their VQs produce.
I've also heard talk about excessively tracked 350s spinning barings and/or consuming oil.
Is the temperature of my oil something I should be highly concerned about?
Should I get an oil cooler ASAP?
I would like to avoid discussion about F/I 350s or those race prepared. I want to know about the average Joe Schmoe tracking on high level street tires, in intermediate level run groups, around 5-6 times per year.
Please share your input, expertise, advice if you have experience or insight into this.
Last edited by M1r4cL3; 09-14-2009 at 03:56 PM. Reason: Typos > me
09-14-2009, 04:31 PM
#2
Hey Adam, do you have DE or HR? I have no overheating problem with me DE on the track, even in a very hot day in willow springs, I had my heater on with full speed btw. One time I forgot and kept my A/C on, the water temp gauge did went up to about 3/4. I dont have an oil cooler, but I do have the bigger stillen oil pan which adds about 3 more quarts of oil. On the other hand, my friend's HR (stock) overheated about 3-4 laps on the same day tho, plus another Z at the same day spun his bearings and needed to get it towed.
So my suggestion is, YES, get an oil cooler or at least a bigger oil pan. Better to be safe instead of spending big money for engine repair.
So my suggestion is, YES, get an oil cooler or at least a bigger oil pan. Better to be safe instead of spending big money for engine repair.
09-14-2009, 04:55 PM
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370's have wimpy main bearings vs the DE (not sure about the HR, never really studied them)
You also have to really define 'track'. For your typical lapping day on street tires, it's really your call. Certainly won't hurt as mentioned, but depends on the sessions you run, the type of track, etc. I used to do quite a bit of track use (mainly Lime Rock, on r comps) before I built the motor on my car, and never once had any issues (no oil cooler). Now I run a built NA motor with ~2000 rpm more than stock and still run without an oil cooler, though now it's just for street fun and weekends, no more track stuff for the Z
You also have to really define 'track'. For your typical lapping day on street tires, it's really your call. Certainly won't hurt as mentioned, but depends on the sessions you run, the type of track, etc. I used to do quite a bit of track use (mainly Lime Rock, on r comps) before I built the motor on my car, and never once had any issues (no oil cooler). Now I run a built NA motor with ~2000 rpm more than stock and still run without an oil cooler, though now it's just for street fun and weekends, no more track stuff for the Z
09-14-2009, 05:09 PM
#6
Hey Adam, do you have DE or HR? I have no overheating problem with me DE on the track, even in a very hot day in willow springs, I had my heater on with full speed btw. One time I forgot and kept my A/C on, the water temp gauge did went up to about 3/4. I dont have an oil cooler, but I do have the bigger stillen oil pan which adds about 3 more quarts of oil. On the other hand, my friend's HR (stock) overheated about 3-4 laps on the same day tho, plus another Z at the same day spun his bearings and needed to get it towed.
So my suggestion is, YES, get an oil cooler or at least a bigger oil pan. Better to be safe instead of spending big money for engine repair.
So my suggestion is, YES, get an oil cooler or at least a bigger oil pan. Better to be safe instead of spending big money for engine repair.
I have a DE... early 2004 performance model.
Up to this point, I haven't had any overheating problems either. As far as I know my water temp gauge reads pretty consitent and never above 1/2 but I will keep a closer eye on it now.
I kinda feel the same way as you, it's better to have overkill rather than under kill. Better to spend a lil now instead of a lot later. But then again, I don't want to make unnecessary expenditures either.
09-14-2009, 05:22 PM
#7
You also have to really define 'track'. For your typical lapping day on street tires, it's really your call. Certainly won't hurt as mentioned, but depends on the sessions you run, the type of track, etc. I used to do quite a bit of track use (mainly Lime Rock, on r comps) before I built the motor on my car, and never once had any issues (no oil cooler). Now I run a built NA motor with ~2000 rpm more than stock and still run without an oil cooler, though now it's just for street fun and weekends, no more track stuff for the Z
As previously, my experience level is intermediate and I've been running 180tw street tires. Nothing hardcore or over the top about me.
Good to know that you didn't really have any problems.
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09-14-2009, 05:29 PM
#8
Hey Adam, do you have DE or HR? I have no overheating problem with me DE on the track, even in a very hot day in willow springs, I had my heater on with full speed btw. One time I forgot and kept my A/C on, the water temp gauge did went up to about 3/4. I dont have an oil cooler, but I do have the bigger stillen oil pan which adds about 3 more quarts of oil. On the other hand, my friend's HR (stock) overheated about 3-4 laps on the same day tho, plus another Z at the same day spun his bearings and needed to get it towed.
So my suggestion is, YES, get an oil cooler or at least a bigger oil pan. Better to be safe instead of spending big money for engine repair.
So my suggestion is, YES, get an oil cooler or at least a bigger oil pan. Better to be safe instead of spending big money for engine repair.
09-14-2009, 05:33 PM
#9
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Not too scientific but I noticed that running mobile 10w-30 on a HPDE, my oil pressure was pegged at 60psi at 6000rpm. Normally I'm at 60psi at 60mph at 3000RPM. I'm guessing the oil was loosing viscocity due to overheating. It was enough for me to get a GTM oil cooler. Its cheap insurance. Costs less than one track day..
09-14-2009, 05:34 PM
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Hey Adam, do you have DE or HR? I have no overheating problem with me DE on the track, even in a very hot day in willow springs, I had my heater on with full speed btw. One time I forgot and kept my A/C on, the water temp gauge did went up to about 3/4. I dont have an oil cooler, but I do have the bigger stillen oil pan which adds about 3 more quarts of oil. On the other hand, my friend's HR (stock) overheated about 3-4 laps on the same day tho, plus another Z at the same day spun his bearings and needed to get it towed.
So my suggestion is, YES, get an oil cooler or at least a bigger oil pan. Better to be safe instead of spending big money for engine repair.
So my suggestion is, YES, get an oil cooler or at least a bigger oil pan. Better to be safe instead of spending big money for engine repair.
the stillen oil cooler adds 1 quart additional vs stock
09-14-2009, 05:35 PM
#11
The SCC article states:
"... we've seen and heard of two consistent signs of weakness from the people within Nissan Motorsports.
VQs and previous generations of Nissan motors, stretching from the QR to the RB series, all use a modern-style bearing material that's fairly intolerant to heat. While older engines used a tri-metal, lead-based alloy (designated F-770 internally by Nissan) that held up well at elevated temperatures, newer bearings use a lead-free material (for environmental reasons) that's far less tolerant of high oil temperatures. This is why most new Nissans from Sentras to Skylines all use oil coolers and bearing failure is so common for track-bound GT-Rs and 350Zs. At temperatures below 300 degrees F, where most synthetic oils are still stable, the newer lead-free bearing material has already changed chemically and been damaged permanently. Even at 250 degrees F, these bearings have lost significant load-bearing capacity."
VQs and previous generations of Nissan motors, stretching from the QR to the RB series, all use a modern-style bearing material that's fairly intolerant to heat. While older engines used a tri-metal, lead-based alloy (designated F-770 internally by Nissan) that held up well at elevated temperatures, newer bearings use a lead-free material (for environmental reasons) that's far less tolerant of high oil temperatures. This is why most new Nissans from Sentras to Skylines all use oil coolers and bearing failure is so common for track-bound GT-Rs and 350Zs. At temperatures below 300 degrees F, where most synthetic oils are still stable, the newer lead-free bearing material has already changed chemically and been damaged permanently. Even at 250 degrees F, these bearings have lost significant load-bearing capacity."
"Early generations of the VQ also used small bearings, which have less surface area to reduce friction and mass. The drawback is more load per bearing area. When coupled with a bearing material intolerant of high temperatures, that results in a lot of spun bearings in hard-driven cars."
Last edited by M1r4cL3; 09-14-2009 at 05:37 PM.
09-14-2009, 06:29 PM
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I've done over 20 track days(half on Rcomps) on my 06 without an oil cooler, some in 100+F heat. This winter I'm installing a Koyo radiator, oil cooler and oil pan spacer just for peace of mind. The car is turning more and more into track only car so it makes sense.
For a street car that sees the track only a few times a year, not a must, but a wise thing to do at only about $400.
This is what I'll install: http://www.gtmotorsports.com/product...cat=266&page=1
For a street car that sees the track only a few times a year, not a must, but a wise thing to do at only about $400.
This is what I'll install: http://www.gtmotorsports.com/product...cat=266&page=1
09-14-2009, 07:04 PM
#17
It seems directly centered on the backside of the front bumper is the only place you can mount like that. The left and right side of the bumper has a slight curvature making a flush mount difficult.
Does anyone have pics of the kit mounted centered off the back of the bumper?
Does anyone have pics of the kit mounted centered off the back of the bumper?
09-15-2009, 07:39 AM
#20
I've had an oil cooler for almost 4 years that I sourced from Bat, Inc. I installed one only because I noticed appreciable power losses during the later part of a 20-minute session. I never ran any temperature tests, and haven't installed a proper oil temp sensor to see what was going on. I merely did it as a precautionary measure. I do an average of 8 track days per year. So far, the engine is still fine (~45 DE days), but these are just DE's, not TT or races where I'd probably push the car a lot harder (not enough safety equipment to justify it).