Hi so I did my second track HPDE and experienced some extreme fade.

I have new OEM rotors. In my first event I had OEM pads, then the second one I had Hawk HPS pads front and rear (non-Brembo). The conditions were terrible for brakes — Houston, TX in August, and at MSR Houston has more than one straightaway-into-hairpin combination which is where they gave me trouble.

I replaced the fluid at the track but it made almost no difference. The small calipers/rotors just couldn't take the heat. I want a BBK (who doesn't? ) but it will be a few more months before that's possible. In the meantime I'd still like to go to the track. I hate to invest more money in this brake setup, but for safety I think I'll at least need different pads.

I was thinking about Carbotech XP10s. I drive on the street but don't mind noise or dust etc. Good idea or bad? If my rotors have any glazing from the meltification of the Hawk pads that were on there, these would be aggressive enough to strip that off hopefully.

This may be complete nonsense, but at the time I had some concern because the HPS pads had so much more fade than OEM —*granted, there are infinite factors such as track, weather, speed, and a lot of driving improvement from my first event to second. But one theory (lots of theories at the track, hard to separate fact from BS!) I heard was that the Hawk pads have more bite and work better but send all the increased heat to the caliper, which wasn't as much of a problem with stock pads. I'd hate to run into a similar issue again if this is the case.



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Don't be surprised if a lot of people tell you that it's as much driver as it is brakes/pads/fluid.

Did you have an experienced instructor in the car with you are were you on your own?

 

Yeah, that's fair enough, haha. I had an experienced instructor the whole time.

 

I wouldn't expect something like HPS pads to be much better (if at all) than OEM. They are a street pad, and I wouldn't bring them to the track. They have an MOT (max operating temp) of around 700, which is basically the same as OEM, where the XP10s are 1650!, which I doubt you come close to.


Your fluid will still boil, especially if its contaminated by water (proper full flush should prevent). SS lines are also a cheap way to help with brake performance. And for the ghetto in us, you can always try brake ducts. I was able to drop rotor temps nearly 20% with 1hr and $50 in ducting.


And like Dave said, not cooking the brakes, but still stopping, is a learned skill. Keep at it.

 

Just get the XP10's for now, but you can not drive them on the street. But its only a few minutes to swap them out at the track, or the night before if the track is close.

 

Why not? I drive my XP10 front and XP8 rear setup on the street and have for 2 months now. Excellent setup if you can get past the dust and noise they create. There is no fade or glazing felt. Also neither set has killed my rotors. Rotors are as smooth as they were with the stock pad setup. These are top of the line pads and don't really brake the bank. Spelling error meant.

 

Agreed...Carbotech are one of the few full-on race pads that can be driving on the street if needed...but it is not real cost effective if you drive a lot DD

 

Well,
it would actually be cheaper to have a set of XP's and then a set of longer lasting street pads. Not to mention cleaner and quiester. Plus in the XP10/XP12 range the pads actually have a small issue when cold (below 40 something degrees) and you loose stopping power. Never a real issue on track except on the warm up lap, but that first stop in the morning on a cold commute could lead to a surprise or two.

 

XP8 maybe...

 

FWIW here are my experiences.

I went from OEM -> Hawk HP -> Ferodo DS2500 -> Carbotech XP10.

Obviously the OEM and Hawks did not cut it however I thought the Ferodo pads were a great compromise between a street compound and something that could take a decent amount of abuse on the track without totally giving up the ghost.

Of course the Carbotech pads are much nicer for the track, however on the street they were not near as forgiving.

 

^+1, went from OEM (brembo), DS2500, EBC Yellowstuff, Hawk DTC60, and about to upgrade to XP10 on the front. You don't need a BBK, just some more aggressive, higher temp pads. The DS2500 is a nice do-all pad, but I started warping front rotors as my lap times dropped. No issues with them on the back through since they aren't beat on as much. Also, recommend ATE Superblue for fluid, no issues with boiling yet and reasonable price.

 

Thank you all for great, well-informed responses!

Will give this some thought and probably try the Ferodo or XP10s and if I don't like them I can put the Hawks back on for street.

My driving and braking skill definitely has a long way to go. It's reassuring to hear from you guys that the non-Brembo setup is more capability than I was giving it credit for! Thanks everyone.

 

FYI- From what I understand the Non-Brembo are harder on rear brakes.

 

Thanks everyone, it sounds like the Ferodo DS2500 will be just right for where I am right now so I ordered some. Can't wait to give them a try (and have some more confidence using that brake pedal!)

 

I've driven in temps right around 40* and haven't had the problem yet. I do know that track pads will not work well in cold weather temps. However my means of preventing pad failure during colder weather days is to do some harder braking than normal to warm the pads up. Mostly whenever approaching a stop sign or red light.

 

I use the Ferodo DS2500 for both DD use and weekends at the track. I've been really happy with them. You said you swapped fluid at the track--do make sure to use a higher temp fluid, such as the ATE superblue mentioned above. Not sure if you did that, but the conditions that you described would boil OEM fluid in a couple laps...

 

Your biggest mistake was the selection of HAWK HPS pads (HPS= High Priced Suckage). They are worse than OEM pad compounds, they should be reserved for rarely driven show cars, not touted as a street/race pad like they are.

The StopTech Street Performance pads are a great learning pad that you can drive with everyday. Supior initial bite and a higher operating temp (1100-1300 i think). I used them on my porkier G35 for two 20-min lapping sessions on a 90-degree pluss day and they never deteriorated. Combined with Motul RBF-600 fluid and SS lines, they maintained consistant pressures and initial bite.

Could their performance had been better? Sure, but they didnt fade and they didnt ever scare me. They aren't a race compound afterall, but they sure do work well for a street-to-track pad. They're pretty affordable too, I think they go for around $100 for a front and rear set.

I know you have your doubts, but give the StopTechs a shot and throw in some SS-lines and some racing brake fluid and you should be surprised. Ultimately you will want to seek a better braking solution as you advance, but you should still be able to get some mileage out of the OEM stuff while you are learning.

 

They sure are. For an experienced driver, the standard rear non-Brembo pads and the rotor just doesn't have enough surface area to keep cool. I had to order custom-cut ST43 pads for the rear, which did solve the problem.

 

Any update? When is your next event?

No matter what pad you end up with, it is IMPERATIVE that you completely flush and replace your fluid with a high temp fluid...

ATE Super Blue
ATE 200 (same as Super Blue but not blue... won't stain reservoirs... also when alternated with Blue, makes it easy to know when a good flush has been completed)
AP Racing 550 (my preference)
Motul RBF 600 (660 now?)

As has already been mentioned... ducting (or lack therof) and technique will play a large role as well (also track layout and session times of course.)

Are there other tracks that you're willing to travel to? I'd be curious to know how your set up would work in cooler temps at a track with plenty of long runs for your brakes to cool off... hmm... say... I just so happen to be hosting an event at Virginia Int'l Raceway November 28th & 29th!! That would be perfect!! http://msreg.us/Trypto

 

You are still going to over-heat... it sounds like the issue is not being able to take heat away from the rotors fast enough. I have the same issue, XP10's with high temp fluid and still only last 5 or 6 full speed laps before I start feeling enough give that I call it quits. My problem is my fluid boiling, the pads are phenominal and will bite hard as long as there is enough force behind the pistons. I know I need brake ducts but I also want to sell my car eventually so I won't be cutting through crap to get the ducts from point A to point B. You will have to run some ducts or maybe come up with an air dam directing more air into your rotor/caliper (similar to what they use on the ZR1 Corvette).