solidfish

iTrader: (7)

I'm still a newbie tracker trying to improve my track times. In recent track events, I've been experimenting with my turn entry/exit speeds. Of course its different per condition (track/turn) but recently I've been getting more oversteer than before. Probably because my speeds have increased.

When the rear starts to slide on a turn, I countersteer but keep off the gas to prevent drift. But as the rear regains traction it slingshots to the other side, causing me to counter the other way. Basically it puts me in a bit of a tail spin (or wagging?) as I go from side to side.

From what I've read, the better approach is to give slight jolts of countersteer while in the turn. This can prevent the slide in the first place. Not sure if I'm explaining this correctly but was hoping to get some insights.

Shamu

Sounds like you are letting off too aggressively and counter steering a little too much. You need to develop a feeling for the car just as it starts to oversteer and give little inputs as opposed to big sloppy counter steers.

Interesting thing is if you are recovering from a sloppy countersteer you probably arent close to the limit of the car in turns. You may be entering turns too fast with car unsettled as well.

ThreeFiveZero Z

iTrader: (23)

If you are coasting/lifting in the turn, thats your problem right there. The worst thing you can do is lift, because the weight of the car shifts forward, rear gets light and gets loose.

Watch some of my videos on youtube, channel is obzezzed350, and you will see how I use throttle and a bit of countersteer to fight oversteer. Also, if you arent using the rumblestrips often or putting two wheels off a few times a session, you arent using all the track and you may be overturning, which can cause oversteer if you are lifting. Best thing you can do is get a Go Pro camera and start filming your sessions. That way, you can get feedback from other drivers and improve. Best of luck!

Zazz93

iTrader: (2)

+1 on the first two answers. Sounds like lift-throttle oversteering, weight comes off the rear "making it light" and rear traction goes away with it. As the tires slowly regain grip, they naturally want to square up and follow the front and this causes the wagging. One tip for this problem is to stay on the throttle mid corner, but just a touch to keep from upsetting the car. I'd say less than 10% throttle input. If that is too tough to figure out right away make sure your off the throttle before turning in and stay off it until you ready to exit the corner, coasting won't be half as bad as lifting mid corner.

solidfish

iTrader: (7)

Thanks for the responses. I havent thought much about the weight balance. So what causes the lift? Perhaps I'm braking too late into the turn? I dont think I'm trail braking, as I actually try to accelerate through the turn.

I was at an event last week and got into this spin/wobble a few times. I'll post some clips later.

Zazz93

iTrader: (2)

Clips will be very useful, but what we are referring to, is abruptly lifting off the throttle while turning in or while in mid turn. Just like when your driving normal down the street, when you lift the throttle abruptly you get jerked forward. That movement forward is what causes the rear-end to go "light" and lose traction, but it doesn't have to be half as dramatic to cause problem in mid turn.

davidv

iTrader: (2)

This may be a problem. Once you remove power to the rear tires, you have lost traction. Its like a dog wagging its tail. The rear is going to go wherever it wants.

solidfish

iTrader: (7)

I pulled together some clips of all the mistakes I made last week. After reviewing the clips, it seems I'm taking a lot of these turns sharply, and not really lining up where I should be. (Couple of times though I couldn't hold a line because I was passing).

After the off-course mistake, I took the rest of the day slowly. This is Laguna Seca and it was a cool 57 degrees. (This might have also been a factor)

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betamotorsports

iTrader: (1)

OK, I'll be blunt. All the issues you're dealing with are caused by you. Outside temps, tires, wind at your back, sun in your eye, etc. are not it.

The Good

Your hands are smooth and you're not overloading the front tires by throwing in too much steering - most of the time.

In most cases you're hitting the corner apexes pretty well.

You're driving, even when you're by yourself on the track, is at about 8/10ths of the car's capabilities. That's good when you're starting out.

The Bad

You're coasting a lot, especially into Turn 2.

You early apex Turn 4 every single time and that's why you're having trouble there.

You're holding steering angle after you've passed the apex. Unwind the steering after the apex all the way out to corner exit. This is really evident in Turn 11.

You're relying almost exclusively on steering to get the car around the corner. That's what happens when you drive at 8/10ths. The unfortunate part is that when you suddenly get to 10/10ths and should be using the throttle to steer, you lift off the gas. At 10/10ths on the track 75% of how the car gets through the corner is based on the throttle.

You're doing the classic beginner thing by driving slow in the fast corners and fast in the slow corners. Turn 11 is a perfect example. You'll hear dozens of people tell you Turn 11 is the most important corner because is leads onto the longest straight. If that's true (I disagree) then its the last corner you want to screw up. Its better to be a little slow through 11 then too fast.

Your oversteer issue is actually a driver induced understeer problem. Here's how it happens:

1. The car starts understeering so you add in more steering; it understeers more because the front tires are already at the limit and adding more steering just makes things worse.

2. You add more power becuase you think that's what you should be doing as you go past the apex, but that just moves weight back and causes more understeer.

3. You lift off the throttle which causes an immediate weight shift forward, increasing front grip and reducing rear grip.

4. Since you already have a buttload of steering, the increased grip causes the front of the car to dart in the direction of the steering input.

5. At the same time the reduced weight on the back causes the rear to lose grip and start to slide.

6. Bammo! Snap oversteer and its all arms and elbows in the cockpit and the cars is wallowing around on corner exit.

Slow down more for the slow corners and slow down less for the fast corners. You're actually doing just fine and you're making the same mistakes as we all have done starting out. Keep at it.

KornerCarver

iTrader: (2)

You need to try and find a copy of the book, "The Technique of Motor Racing" by Piero Taruffi. This book was written during the 1950's but there is still a lot of relevant information. He explains the four wheel drift very well. That was the cornering technique used before aerodynamics took over racing.

Zazz93

iTrader: (2)

I couldn't agree more. We were a little off in the inital guesses, I don't remember seeing one case of drop throttle oversteer. John hit it on the head with the driver input errors. Like in the first moment, you were making a pass on a slower car and you were pinched down low and I saw two errors from that point both mentioned in John's post. Instead of tracking left were the car naturally wants to go you pinched it further down (adding more steering input) and proceeded to accellerate as you normally had. Remember, off line moments require new thinking. Also I noticed you making the same mistake I make alot, over-correcting through steering input. An instructor once told me you shouldn't have to use that much input to catch a car (outside of a hairpin). He told me to use small and early adjustments.

solidfish

iTrader: (7)

Thanks for those critiques!

I do see now that I'm going in early in turn 4. I'll have to check the rest of my video to see if I'm always making that mistake.

As for turn 2, I've been burnt there before (previous event) where I went in too fast and ended up hard off the track. I picked up damage that day so I try to take it slower now. But I do see I'm coasting. I'm still trying to figure out where I need to start braking so many times I lift off the gas as I crest the hill and coast from there.

And I see now what youre saying about having too much steering. It looks like I do hold the turns a little longer than I should, perhaps not really using the full width of the track. I spun out (wobbled) a few weeks earlier at a different track. I'll have to see if that was for the same reason.

urgh... now I want to get back out there.

betamotorsports

iTrader: (1)

Braking for Turn 2. In your video you should be foot to the floor until the 10 to 12 second mark and then hard on the brakes. For now, start braking at the 8 second mark and then work it deeper. Also, get on the brakes hard right away - hard push not hard slap or slam. Don't ease into the brakes. If you get into the ABS, just back off the brake pedal a smidge.

Also, how you come off the brakes is very important. Ease off the brake pedal as you start to turn in. Don't pop your foot off and go for the gas. That quickly unloads the front and transfers weight back causing understeer. The car won't turn in and you'll add more steering which starts that whole driver induced understeer thing.

scotts300

iTrader: (46)

John,
Your first two issues happened when there were other cars around. I would have waited until the 11-2 sequence to pass the first car versus squeezing in to T11. Same sort of thing on the second slide where you were passing.

I also agree that you are turning in early often, especially at 4 and 9.

Later in the video you seemed to slow it down, yet the tires were still squeeling. What were the hot tire pressures?

I noticed you did a downshift while in the middle of T3, which is a no-no. That may have been the catalyst for your off in T6 at the 6 minute mark. I can't perfectly tell, but you do downshift just at the last second of entrance to T6, but I can't see your feet to see when you release the clutch. If you let it go with any steering input, that would upset the balance of the car and upset things.

You'll also need to work in keeping at WOT over T1. Hopefully you are at least keeping a slight amount of throttle over that turn, which it looks like you are.

Overall - turn in later, and do less shifting. You can use the RPM band over 5500. The only place you might need 5th gear is between T1 and T2, and I bet even that can be avoided. Going into 5th before T5 and before the corkscrew is unnecessary since they're followed by an immediate downshift.

Fixxxercask

iTrader: (21)

Good answers guys. I could not agree more. I am still learning more myself. I had these exact same issues mid season last year.

solidfish

iTrader: (7)

Hey Scott, I think you're right. Seems like that down shift went a little later than usual. Although I'm pretty sure it was in gear before the turn, it might have shifted the balance. If I remember correctly, I was focusing a lot on my entry speeds at that time, which might have been why I got forgot to shift earlier.

And you're also right about my frequent shifts. I shift A LOT. And I aint afraid to grab 5th. Sometimes its because I'm trying to avoid redline, sometimes its just bad habbit. I also have a problem avoiding 2nd sometimes. Dont know if this clip shows it but a few times I take turn 11 in 3rd. I do this sometimes at the last turn in Thunderhill too. I'm working on it...

I was having problems with tire pressures because the morning was actually warmer (sun was out) than the afternoon. I try to keep it at ~34 but I did re-inflate in the afternoon sessions as it was getting cold.

Zazz93

iTrader: (2)

Also Solidfish, an instuctor told me to stay away from that hand over hand steering. Works for the streets not the track. There are exceptions out there but generally if you feel you have to use that much steering input, its probably an indication you are trying to carry too much speed in or you missed the apex. Scott and Beta may be able to confirm for you at this track that you don't need to use much more than 90 degrees of input from center (I can't say for sure, never been there).

ThreeFiveZero Z

iTrader: (23)

Agreed. Unless its a 180 hairpin like turn 8 at Homestead-Miami, my hands are always at 10-2.

solidfish

iTrader: (7)

Right, unless I'm recovering from somewhere I shouldnt be, I dont think my hands cross. Even if it is a sharp turn, I think I try to step through it without crossing. Was I crossing somewhere in that clip?

So many things to think about. Cant wait to get to the level like Tsuchiya or the guys on Best Motoring where they are giving complex commentaries while flying through corners.

Zazz93

iTrader: (2)

I noticed it in T11 and T2 couple of times. Not crazy, but a little hand over hand turn in (or shuffling hands), quickly followed by the tires protesting. As ThreeFiveZero Z said try to stay at 10 and 2 or what's comfortable within reason.